ADF General discussion thread

[oldsig127]

It will be interesting to see the proposed details of the large hull vessel for use in the Pacific as well as what additional training days will be provided to the Reserves.

More details will presumably be announced by the PM today, but there are a lot of questions to be answered. Given that this is intended to pump $$$ into employment and industry to solve a problem NOW in the same fashion as the school sheds built during ghe GFC, one has to assume that the Pacific ship project is already well advanced. Even (very simplistically) assuming they already have a set of detailed plans ready, I'm not too sure how quickly work will start *except* that as we've often discussed, Australia has a real issue about *where* a larger vessel can be built.

If they've already decided, maybe a relatively quick start could be made improving an existing yard- plenty of out of work building trades out there. But finding the tradies who will build the ship, and the technical experts to lead them, not so much. Valley of Death, anyone?

I'm really, really no expert on this but it looks difficult on the face of it.

Shifting the Bushmaster upgrades forward is a no brainer. Thales will have existing supply lines, their suppliers will want the work and their workers will want the jobs.

For the rest, I expect I'll watch ABC NEWS24 today and wait for the presser.

oldsig

 

[oldsig127]

More details will presumably be announced by the PM today, but there are a lot of questions to be answered. Given that this is intended to pump $$$ into employment and industry to solve a problem NOW in the same fashion as the school sheds built during ghe GFC, one has to assume that the Pacific ship project is already well advanced. Even (very simplistically) assuming they already have a set of detailed plans ready, I'm not too sure how quickly work will start *except* that as we've often discussed, Australia has a real issue about *where* a larger vessel can be built.

If they've already decided, maybe a relatively quick start could be made improving an existing yard- plenty of out of work building trades out there. But finding the tradies who will build the ship, and the technical experts to lead them, not so much. Valley of Death, anyone?

I'm really, really no expert on this but it looks difficult on the face of it.

Shifting the Bushmaster upgrades forward is a no brainer. Thales will have existing supply lines, their suppliers will want the work and their workers will want the jobs.

For the rest, I expect I'll watch ABC NEWS24 today and wait for the presser.

oldsig

And, not surprisingly, the ABC story had it wrong vis a vis the Pacific ship, which didn't seem to me to be the right project for the stated objectives. This is the official release...

$1B To Accelerate Defence Initiatives In Covid-19 Recovery | Prime Minister of Australia

www.pm.gov.au

oldsig

 

[justinterested]

And, not surprisingly, the ABC story had it wrong vis a vis the Pacific ship, which didn't seem to me to be the right project for the stated objectives. This is the official release...

$1B To Accelerate Defence Initiatives In Covid-19 Recovery | Prime Minister of Australia

www.pm.gov.au

oldsig

I am not so sure the ABC had it wrong. ADBR has further details about the initiatives, including this - "Bringing forward the construction of the South West Pacific Large Hull Vessel which will be used for humanitarian and disaster relief (HADR) in our region, and which was previously announced by former Defence Minister Christopher Pyne in November 2018. "

 

[ngatimozart]

I am not so sure the ABC had it wrong. ADBR has further details about the initiatives, including this - "Bringing forward the construction of the South West Pacific Large Hull Vessel which will be used for humanitarian and disaster relief (HADR) in our region, and which was previously announced by former Defence Minister Christopher Pyne in November 2018. "

Well the official government statement carries a lot more weight than a couple of pieces pumped out by a couple of journos.

@justinterested You have quoted something from a published article. Under forum rules and international IP law you are required to cite the author and publication details. You are to do so immediately. If you have trouble adding the required details to your post, please contact one of the Moderators and we can do that for you.

 

[justinterested]

The Defence and Industry site -ADBR has an article, published today, by Andrew McLaughlin on the recently reported defence initiative

Govt brings forward Defence spending to stimulate economy – ADBR

 

[spoz]

Of course, it does depend on what you mean by “large hulled”. Early on at least my betting was on something like the Damen LST 120; that could easily be built at Osborne or Henderson, although both of those are rather busy....not sure who else could do it.

 

[Milne Bay]

Of course, it does depend on what you mean by “large hulled”. Early on at least my betting was on something like the Damen LST 120; that could easily be built at Osborne or Henderson, although both of those are rather busy....not sure who else could do it.

I wonder if something built by Incat in Tasmania might be on the cards.
It is one shipbuilder in a state that has had little in the way of input to defence.
MB

 

[ngatimozart]

The Defence and Industry site -ADBR has an article, published today, by Andrew McLaughlin on the recently reported defence initiative

Govt brings forward Defence spending to stimulate economy – ADBR

Ok, just remember to post your sources.

Andrew knows his stuff, is well informative, and one of the very few defence journos held in high regard by some Moderators and DEFPROs on here, myself included. However, it must be noted that the govt statement doesn't include anything about the Pacific ship. So you Aussie posters, before getting your oars in the oarlocks and worked up into a frenzy, lets wait and see something concrete before getting all carried away.

 

[DDG38]

I'll go one further, can we have a moratorium on any random pie in the sky speculation on what the Pacific support ship might be until there's some factual detail released, because at the moment it's nothing more than an amorphous thought bubble with some funding behind it ?

 

[vonnoobie]

I'll go one further, can we have a moratorium on any random pie in the sky speculation on what the Pacific support ship might be until there's some factual detail released, because at the moment it's nothing more than an amorphous thought bubble with some funding behind it ?

Agreed. At present all ideas thrown around are just that ideas. We are playing what is tant amount to a game of lucky dip.

In regards to building it well several factors will come into play such as what it might be (LST, LPD-mini, a canoe) what size, materials (likely steel but we never know for sure) and time frame. Comes down to one of four yards being BAE/ASC, civmec, incat/Austal. I'm thinking 1st more likely as could potentially be a good gap filler between the OPV's and FFG's, civmec will have the personnel and facilities but may be too busy with the OPV's, while incat and Austal have the facilities but little to no experience with steel. That said may also be incat with state support to get them in a position to build the future TT-Line ships. But this too is all speculation on my part.

 

[pea032]

The Fin Review is saying that the Pacific Support Ship is going to be built in WA

$1b defence boost to stimulate economy

Not sure where or when, with Civmec busy with the opvs and Austal with the pacific patrol boats and new Cape class boats

 

[vonnoobie]

The Fin Review is saying that the Pacific Support Ship is going to be built in WA

$1b defence boost to stimulate economy

Not sure where or when, with Civmec busy with the opvs and Austal with the pacific patrol boats and new Cape class boats

Would take that with a grain of salt. All things considered the point of this is to start work earlier which means knowing exactly what is wanted/needed or for tenders/contracts won that had been intended to start at a later date but bought forward. For the PSS no tender has actually started, no contract won not even a list of government requirements for the ship so I think you will find this ship is not part of it even more so when you consider contract negotiations, finding suppliers, long lead materials etc. Ship parts aren't exactly stocked on the shelf at Repco or Supercheap. Need to be specially ordered which takes time. PSS for a quick amount of work just doesn't fit in with the intention of the $1b stimulus.

 

[DDG38]

The Fin Review is saying that the Pacific Support Ship is going to be built in WA

$1b defence boost to stimulate economy

Not sure where or when, with Civmec busy with the opvs and Austal with the pacific patrol boats and new Cape class boats

If you're going to link to something behind a paywall, at least quote directly from the article for those who don't have a log in. Do they even quote a source for that claim ? Or is it someone trying to influence the decision ?

 

[pea032]

Hmmm link goes to pay wall, google doesn't....

"The government has given the go ahead for a new large-hulled vessel – first promised almost two years ago as part of the "Pacific Step Up" – that will be stationed semi-permanently in the south-west Pacific for rapid deployments to humanitarian and disaster relief missions.

The ship will be built in Perth, supporting 165 jobs directly."

 

[spoz]

While no requirements have been made public, that doesn’t mean that they haven’t been developed somewhere within the bowels of the beast (probably actually Navy capability), and from the little that is the public arena, even approved by government. They’re not obliged to tell us!

 

[vonnoobie]

While no requirements have been made public, that doesn’t mean that they haven’t been developed somewhere within the bowels of the beast (probably actually Navy capability), and from the little that is the public arena, even approved by government. They’re not obliged to tell us!

True not obligated as far as I know but I have yet to find a company or politician that wouldn't be screaming it from the rooftop about what a great deal they did. If it had been awarded we would have heard something by now so my money is still on no deal has yet been done even if they are only speaking to one party for a sole source contract it has yet to be finalized. But that's just my 2 cents.

 

[aussienscale]

Hmmm link goes to pay wall, google doesn't....

"The government has given the go ahead for a new large-hulled vessel – first promised almost two years ago as part of the "Pacific Step Up" – that will be stationed semi-permanently in the south-west Pacific for rapid deployments to humanitarian and disaster relief missions.

The ship will be built in Perth, supporting 165 jobs directly."

Still does not source a direct quote, more a case of Andrew putting his two cents in as he is from WA and putting a word in for his WA Mafia friends, nothing official from the Gov with these details, just and attempted ground swell move.

It does however ask the question ? where do/can we realistically build it ? many unanswered questions about what the ship actually is, the update to the ship building plan is not far off and suspect that will hold a lot of detail. They have been smart enough to plan properly and not thinking they will get the ship built in a one off capacity to develop another valley for the sake of a cash injection.

My two cents anyway.

Cheers

 

[vonnoobie]

They have been smart enough to plan properly and not thinking they will get the ship built in a one off capacity to develop another valley for the sake of a cash injection.

My two cents anyway.

Cheers

Exactly. It needs to fit into the entire shipbuilding plan. We want all of our yards running smoothly with a steady flow of work to more or less stabilise the jobs across all fields and skill sets. Won't be doing any favours to our selves if it goes to a yard with a steady stream of work and let another dry up just before a major project.

 

[Massive]

.... our retaliatory options against PRC are limited ...

IMHO this is most definitely a good thing.

We should be avoiding going an bombing anyone - particularly somewhere as far away as mainland China.

Regards,

Massive

 

[Massive]

...which got me wondering whether Aegis Ashore might find a home in our far north. I would have thought that a mobile system (THAAD + Patriot) would be more survivable in the face of a peer threat but AA might provide better coverage & defensive output while it's alive(?).

I would have thought that the place that Aegis Ashore might make sense is HMAS Stirling. This is the home of our only truly strategic asset and is the most important to defend.

Not an advocate - I feel that a mobile system, in the Patriot class and likely operated by the RAAF, acquired in regiment strength, would be a better solution.

Regards,

Massive