ADF General discussion thread

[cdxbow]

I saw this in the SMH Australia to test hypersonic missiles within months (smh.com.au)

It seemed to imply this was a development project, jointly with the US. Is this from the UQ group doing hypersonic research? More to come today.

 

[cdxbow]

It is a scramjet based on UQ work in a small enough package to fit on a fighter. More here Australia, US partner on air-launched hypersonic missile (defensenews.com)

 

[Bob53]

Globally things seem to heating up with China picking fights with just about every western and many Asian nations. Every minor slight or action taken in any nations self interest seems to be taken as a massive slap in the face to China that must be met with hysterical indignation and a punishment metered out. I can’t foresee any short term escalation to a war (except maybe with India) but Jim Moylan is saying Au needs to prepare for war. What are the top priority steps ADF should take if we want to prepare for war? Your opinion?

 

[Boagrius]

To be honest I think we are preparing to respond to things going south in the region as is (at least from a procurement POV). I guess you could argue that the timelines are frustratingly slow in places, but there is a lot of pretty transformational stuff planned over the next decade or so, and it can't all be integrated and bedded down overnight. Things like a meaningful strategic fuel/oil/ammunition reserve deserve attention IMO, but the practicalities of that may not be straightforward.

 

[Bob53]

Yeah I was thinking fuel reserves being a priority but pretty sure that won’t happen over night. I still don’t understand how having fuel reserves in the USA is of use to us. Anything else we can run out of should be stocked up... war stocks of dunny paper comes to mind. But fuel, munitions etc yes. Anything else?

 

[Stampede]

To be honest I think we are preparing to respond to things going south in the region as is (at least from a procurement POV). I guess you could argue that the timelines are frustratingly slow in places, but there is a lot of pretty transformational stuff planned over the next decade or so, and it can't all be integrated and bedded down overnight. Things like a meaningful strategic fuel/oil/ammunition reserve deserve attention IMO, but the practicalities of that may not be straightforward.

An increase in our fuel reserve located in Australia would seem to make sense.
No doubt would take both time and expense to achieve.
I understand that in some regions unused tankers are employed as static fuel storage facilities.
Would the purchase of some second hand tankers have merit as a stop gap solution in the short term to remedy our current potential fuel vulnerability.

If anyone with some knowledge on the subject could please advise.


Regards S

 

[aussienscale]

An increase in our fuel reserve located in Australia would seem to make sense.
No doubt would take both time and expense to achieve.
I understand that in some regions unused tankers are employed as static fuel storage facilities.
Would the purchase of some second hand tankers have merit as a stop gap solution in the short term to remedy our current potential fuel vulnerability.

If anyone with some knowledge on the subject could please advise.


Regards S

Strategic fuel storage and supply are both major issues for our geographic locality, we have taken some initial moves, but a lot of that stockpile is still being held in the US due to our lack of storage. This will take time to remedy, but a focus will help it happen a little quicker, hopefully this is on the priority list with Government !

A strategic partnership with the US basing reserves on both the east coast for a Pacific Ocean reserve and the west coast for an Indian Ocean reserve, both of which can supply up into the SE Asian theatre could make good sense for both countries, this could also add some haste to getting the reserves up and running sooner ? Just a thought

Cheers

 

[ngatimozart]

Strategic fuel storage and supply are both major issues for our geographic locality, we have taken some initial moves, but a lot of that stockpile is still being held in the US due to our lack of storage. This will take time to remedy, but a focus will help it happen a little quicker, hopefully this is on the priority list with Government !

A strategic partnership with the US basing reserves on both the east coast for a Pacific Ocean reserve and the west coast for an Indian Ocean reserve, both of which can supply up into the SE Asian theatre could make good sense for both countries, this could also add some haste to getting the reserves up and running sooner ? Just a thought

Cheers

I agree and I would think having at least one refinery on each coast is a necessity as well. Maybe one in the middle of the wop wops too, about halfway between all 4 coasts, not far from the black stump.

 

[Hone C]

I agree and I would think having at least one refinery on each coast is a necessity as well. Maybe one in the middle of the wop wops too, about halfway between all 4 coasts, not far from the black stump.

Having NZ offshore oil & gas, and the refinery at Marsden Point are useful in this respect.
Unfortunately the first has been killed off by govt and the latter looks likely to be closed down/converted to an import only facility. Both moves could prove short sighted given potential disruption to SLOC.

 

[John Fedup]

I agree and I would think having at least one refinery on each coast is a necessity as well. Maybe one in the middle of the wop wops too, about halfway between all 4 coasts, not far from the black stump.

What sort of transportation infrastructure exists exists for a refinery in the middle of wop wops?

 

[ngatimozart]

What sort of transportation infrastructure exists exists for a refinery in the middle of wop wops?

If built near the Adelaide - Darwin highway road trains can be used, plus there is also the railway as well. If they got real keen they could install a dual pipeline north to Darwin and another south to Adelaide. The whole proposition is probably to expensive and would be more cost effective to build a refinery near Adelaide and another near Darwin.

 

[John Fedup]

If built near the Adelaide - Darwin highway road trains can be used, plus there is also the railway as well. If they got real keen they could install a dual pipeline north to Darwin and another south to Adelaide. The whole proposition is probably to expensive and would be more cost effective to build a refinery near Adelaide and another near Darwin.

Don’t need tell me about pipelines, expense is a minor concern compared to First Nations land rights and environmental reviews in Western Canada. As a result we have rail tankers running through the mountains to the Pacific coast, far more dangerous than a pipeline. Oh well, apparently we will be hydrocarbon free in 20 years......

 

[ASSAIL]

If built near the Adelaide - Darwin highway road trains can be used, plus there is also the railway as well. If they got real keen they could install a dual pipeline north to Darwin and another south to Adelaide. The whole proposition is probably to expensive and would be more cost effective to build a refinery near Adelaide and another near Darwin.

There is quite a large (for Darwin) terminal near the Darwin East Arm port although all the old naval fuel tanks at Stokes Hill and Doctors Gully built during the 1930s and 1940s are not longer used.
Vopak Terminal Darwin
There were also some recent statements regarding funding for construction of tank farms for strategic reserves which I can no longer locate, just before the Christmas break IIRC.

Keeping refineries open doesn’t really solve the problem. Transporting crude to Australia is little different to transporting product. I suppose the one difference is that product tankers are smaller, around 50kdwt cf crude tankers around 300kdwt or thereabouts.

 

[ngatimozart]

Keeping refineries open doesn’t really solve the problem. Transporting crude to Australia is little different to transporting product. I suppose the one difference is that product tankers are smaller, around 50kdwt cf crude tankers around 300kdwt or thereabouts.

But wouldn't crude store better than refined product? Am not sure about that. Also given that you can transport it in such large quantities, you could build up stocks quicker and you can refine what product you require when you need it.

 

[John Fedup]

But wouldn't crude store better than refined product? Am not sure about that. Also given that you can transport it in such large quantities, you could build up stocks quicker and you can refine what product you require when you need it.

Yes, crude can be stored, after all its just been sitting underground for ages. Refined products have a self life, duration a function of the fuel type. Older technology engines are a bit more tolerant of stale fuel but not by much.

 

[Bob53]

Some of the other preparations that come to mind would be base hardening though I’m not sure how effective that is these days? But expect hardened bases require more resources to attack.

A fast response could involve additional P8s as I would assume ASW could become a greater priority. With the upcoming weapon integrations on the P8 it becomes a long range ASW, ASUW and EW platform capable of projecting thousands of kms from shore and creating a risky anti access bubble for an adversary. US Navy to Arm P-8A Poseidon With Long-Range Anti-Ship Missile

 

[OldTex]

you can refine what product you require when you need it.

From my memory of chemical engineering the refining process (aka cracking) is neither a stop-start process nor output product selectable. The production of various types of fuel (diesel, petrol, etc) is determined more by the type of crude oil feedstock. So once you start refining you need to keep going or loose the start and end output and at the same time you will produce bitumen, furnace oil, diesel as well as the fuel type you want.
Creating a strategic fuel stock (which should be a priority) becomes a balancing act between the stockpiling of crude oil and the cost of operating refineries versus the cost of stockpiling the required fuel types and managing the usage to avoid loss due to expiration of the shelf life. I am sure that the bean counters would pick the cheapest solution under the present conditions, as they would not be able to 'accurately quantify' possible future conditions (and risks).

 

[swerve]

Surely the whole purpose of catalytic cracking is to be able to select products? Old style refining is just separation of the crude into fractions, & exactly as you say, output is determined by the feedstock. Cracking (first used commercially about 100 years ago AFAIK) breaks down heavy fractions into lighter & generally more useful ones, by breaking big molecules into smaller ones.

 

[t68]

There was to be a new report on our oil reserves but it keeps getting pushed back on when it will be released

Australia’s oil and gas reserves – Parliament of Australia (aph.gov.au)

Australia’s oil and gas reserves
On 19 September 2019, the Senate referred an inquiry into Australia’s oil and gas reserves to the Senate Economics References Committee for inquiry and report by the first sitting day in March 2020.
Submissions closed on 1 November 2019.
In December 2019, the reporting date was extended to 16 September 2020.
One 15 June 2020, the Senate granted the committee a further extension to report by the 16 December 2020.
On Thursday, 12 November 2020, pursuant to the temporary order agreed on 23 March 2020, the Senate Economics References Committee agreed that the time for presentation of the report of the inquiry into Australia'a Oil and Gas Reserves be extended from 16 December 2020 to 30 June 2021.

 

[ngatimozart]

An article by Peter Jennings suggesting that Australia's defence starts with Taiwan saying that it is the military frontline for Australia's defence.

Australia and the Defense of Taiwan | Defense.info

US President Joe Biden’s first international crisis will likely be over the future of Taiwan. Beijing has been positioning for this outcome for months by steadily increasing military pressure against Taipei. The People’s Liberation Army Air Force on Saturday dispatched what the Global...

defense.info