ADF General discussion thread

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think the US response to any Russian challenge in the Baltic or further actions in Ukraine along with any aggressive actions by China in the SCS or Taiwan will be reasonable indicators on how the US will honour existing defence agreements. If they don’t respond then ANZUS is in doubt. If this happens and Chinese aggression becomes extreme then maybe WMD becomes more palatable to the Australian public. Probably unlikely and the time to do so would be too limited.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Hmmm.....walking carefully here....

To build a military that works you also need a threat - I'd suggest that there are a number of issues out of the 1980s - 2000s that highlight how a lack of focus made for an ADF that was average in most areas and poor in the rest - an almost jack of all trades, master of none. We have learnt that doesn't work, and is likely to work less against a future concept of war that is more likely to see peer-peer combat than over the past few decades.

So, to make a viable force that can fight in some conditions you need that threat. And it just so happens that there are options now that are much more realistic than over the past 30 years. But....the problem with highlighting a threat to build against is you have to define how you fight it. And that's where we hit a problem. In a war between China and Australia only, it is more likely than not we lose (depending on scope and location). The only way to win that war is to not fight it.

Enter deterrence.

Deterrence is a great idea. You can avoid the costly war just by scaring them. Except for one tiny, itty bitty issue - it's going to cost a lot. You either need nukes or overwhelming conventional mass. A classic case lies in the Royal Navy at the turn of the 20th century. It was felt that having a large Royal Navy would prevent war with Germany, France, Austro-Hungary, Russia or America. Except....that mass wasn't large enough to stop 1914. Likewise, Iran and North Korea have reasonable protection from the US thanks to their nukes - just like the Soviet Union was never struck in the 1960s or 70s to disrupt trade with North Vietnam - nukes provide deterrence.

Taking each option highlights that neither is feasible for Australia. Both also provide additional risks - especially with our neighbours between us and China. The reality is we can't do it. Enter Big Brother - either Britain (until 1943) or the US (from 1943). In the latter's case there is the ambiguity of their nuclear umbrella that helps.

So, what about the latest work? Well, I'd suggest it is the result of an interesting conundrum between shifting the force to include a specific red focus and the fact we are too small to actually do it. We can infer it though.

But....

There is a partial deterrence capability. Our geography provides all the deterrence we could want - no-one is invading us anytime soon. But (and here is the problem with White's traditional thinking) the air/sea gap is also irrelevant. Australia's interests extend beyond that. Having a strong, capable ADF that can go toe-to-toe with China, at least initially, means that Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam now have additional, capable force to back them. Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu and the other Pacific Islands have a counter-balance that can help them. Australia may not always be the most popular country with them - but they know we will seek to keep them free of malign influence. Adding this together makes some deterrence possible.

20 years ago, the chances of a modern ADF 3-star JTF rapidly reinforcing Malaysia with modern weapons would have been a joke. Now? Almost. 2025-2030? Yes. And with enough teeth to make any nation moving south bleed hard. Now - we may end up losing that JTF. But the political cost to a nation that did that, the risk of bringing in the Americans or Brit's, and the sheer cost in casualties - that all will have some deterrence effect.
Nicely written and highlights were our capabilities were decades ago and will be into the future.
Suggest our region ( out to 3000k ) will be our main focus of military endeavour, with lesser constabulary peacekeeping further afield.

Will watch with interest all that develops.


Regards S
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
My interpretation of the long range strike capability referenced in the Strategic Update (along with the broader intent) is that it is still very much directed at hostile forces operating in our region or its approaches, not the PRC itself (SCS assets at most?). Even the pursuit of hypersonics could simply take the form of an HCM like HAWC, which would be unlikely to reach much further than the existing AGM158 family. I do think this makes sense, as I - like others - very much doubt that a true strategic deterrent is within our grasp here.
Given UQ doing have been doing scramjet work already for a decade or so, I'd be very surprised if we didn't continue with it, and pursue the military applications and if possible, to provide a sovereign capability. The Strategic Update indicated the defence force will spend between $6.2 and $9.3 billion on high-speed, long-range strike options including hypersonic research, suggesting the intention is there. Kinetic weapons do provide a lot of bang for buck. An impactor at 3 km/s delivers 4.5 megajoules of kinetic energy per kg of mass. For comparison, TNT delivers about 4.2 megajoules per Kg, meaning that at impact speeds around 3 km/s, a 1000kg hypersonic missile will deliver 4500 mJ, which is a bit more energy than from 45kt TNT. At 2km/s it's about half that at 2 mj per kg, still significant, and our 1000kg impactor would deliver the equivalent of 20kt on TNT.

On a slightly different note, The Oz ran a piece by Alan Dupont regarding the Australian & world response to the recent increase in the PRC belligerence. NoCookies | The Australian
It's not behind their paywall, so all can read it.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I think the US response to any Russian challenge in the Baltic or further actions in Ukraine along with any aggressive actions by China in the SCS or Taiwan will be reasonable indicators on how the US will honour existing defence agreements. If they don’t respond then ANZUS is in doubt. If this happens and Chinese aggression becomes extreme then maybe WMD becomes more palatable to the Australian public. Probably unlikely and the time to do so would be too limited.
ANZUS isn't in any danger. Australia is an important ally for the US in this part of the world. On the other hand, Australia is probably now casting a critical eye towards the US and wondering whether or not it is the dominant world power it once was.

In Australia's favour however is that the Chinese really haven't got any allies they can depend on. That is why it is extremely important to send a message to China that they are an isolated power as dependant on international law as the rest of us. Hopefully commonsense will eventually prevail and we won't end up in another cold war ... or worse.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ANZUS isn't in any danger. Australia is an important ally for the US in this part of the world. On the other hand, Australia is probably now casting a critical eye towards the US and wondering whether or not it is the dominant world power it once was.

In Australia's favour however is that the Chinese really haven't got any allies they can depend on. That is why it is extremely important to send a message to China that they are an isolated power as dependant on international law as the rest of us. Hopefully commonsense will eventually prevail and we won't end up in another cold war ... or worse.
Australia believes that it is an important ally to the US in the Asia Pacific region, however if for any reason the US doesn't see it that way then what? In the last four years the outpourings of the White House wouldn't support your assertion. Yes I know that the DOD and State say otherwise, but don't take things for granted and presume that things are the same, because they have changed and possibly not for the better. As scientists would say, there is increased uncertainty in the data leading to a greater range of possibilities.

Also define common sense especially in a geopolitical and geostrategic sense when to bull elephants are trampling the grass and bellowing at each other. I am not raining on your parade, but just pointing out that it's no longer safe to blindly make such assumptions.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
ANZUS isn't in any danger. Australia is an important ally for the US in this part of the world. On the other hand, Australia is probably now casting a critical eye towards the US and wondering whether or not it is the dominant world power it once was.

In Australia's favour however is that the Chinese really haven't got any allies they can depend on. That is why it is extremely important to send a message to China that they are an isolated power as dependant on international law as the rest of us. Hopefully commonsense will eventually prevail and we won't end up in another cold war ... or worse.
Other than screwing with IP rights, Russia is the only major player Xi hasn’t pi$$ed off. I would think Putin sees the SCS confrontation (and other Chinese adventures) with so many nations most useful. Chinese ambitions for Siberia must be in the back of Putin’s mind and Xi’s diversions elsewhere ease this concern.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Hi guys

Just a little information in today’s Syd DT (print edition)

It seems the ADF is have a surge of people want to enlist due to Covid

According to data revels recruitment is up 38% between April-June 2020 compared to last year. Apprantly they had just under 25000 applying
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hi guys
Just a little information in today’s Syd DT (print edition)
It seems the ADF is have a surge of people want to enlist due to Covid
According to data revels recruitment is up 38% between April-June 2020 compared to last year. Apprantly they had just under 25000 applying
Always the way when the country is in a recession, same thing happened in the 90s. Quite a few reservist pilots coming back to the RAAF for obvious reasons too.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Much of interest in the joint statement following today's AUSMIN meetings.

Most obvious among them, the decision to establish a US funded , commercially operated strategic fuel reserve in the Darwin region.

Plenty more in there, including the bleeding obvious, which is all the press have reported

oldsig


 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The strategic fuel reserve based in Darwin sounds interesting, commercially operated as well, some much needed jobs coming to the NT is encouraging. As well as a much needed capability.
It’s a very interesting document, and I think we will see some developments sooner rather than later. It also looks like a major base is to built outside of Darwin, the size of a small town.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Navy had one in Darwin (and a number of other places around Australia) storing F76 in accordance with its strategic fuels policy, certainly up until the late 90s. At Humpty Doo we were experimenting with covering it with a foam compound to fill the air gap at the top of the tanks to prolong the life of the stored fuel. Not sure if those facilities are still there and serviceable, and of course they weren't commercially run. There was also the Stokes Hill NFI, complete with WW2 bullet holes in the top of one of the tanks (and the neatest little bar in Darwin) which besides its day to day use stored a significant strategic reserve but I'm afraid political pressure forced us to give that up years ago. Another case of what goes around comes around.
 
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Navy had one in Darwin (and a number of other places around Australia) storing F76 in accordance with its strategic fuels policy, certainly up until the late 90s. At Humpty Doo we were experimenting with covering it with a foam compound to fill the air gap at the top of the tanks to prolong the life of the stored fuel. Not sure if those facilities are still there and serviceable, and of course they weren't commercially run. There was also the Stokes Hill NFI, complete with WW2 bullet holes in the top of one of the tanks (and the neatest little bar in Darwin) which besides its day to day use stored a significant strategic reserve but I'm afraid political pressure forced us to give that up years ago. Another case of what goes around comes around.
The “OFI” as it was known comprised 11 large tanks both in and around Stokes Hill, it was Finally decommissioned in 2014
It was built in the 1920s as part of the RNs “fall back” (my description) from Singapore Strategy and included a steam driven pump house and fuel lines to both major wharves.
The little bar near the entrance gate was created in early 1975 after TC Tracy destroyed the “Cell Bar” at NHQ (this is where Capt Eric Johnstone RAN and staff were sheltering during the storm).
NHQ HMAS Melville was the old police building and had 3 cells detached behind the building and one of them was the bar.
Consequently the OFI storeroom was recreated as the new “Cell Bar”, fond memories.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, fond memories as well!

"OFI", Oil Fuel Installation, was officially changed to "NFI", Naval Fuel Installation, in the late 80s when the changeover from FFO to F76 was completed; but needless to say in conversation nobody ever used anything but "OFI".....

Besides Darwin, we had them on the southern SA/VIC border (secure strategic reserve left over from WW2), in Fremantle, Brisbane and Hobart as well as Chowder Bay in Sydney. All have now been decommissioned I think, although Chowder Bay may still see some use. There are smaller fuel installations at Stirling and NAS Nowra.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Fascinating article from ASPI, outlining why Australian industrial production and scientific Research were the reasons Japan never invaded Australia.
I had no idea Australia was feeding 1,000,000 US Soldiers in the Pacific theatre!
And all possible because of preparations made in the 1930s.
Echoes with what is happening Today?


The role of Australian industrial power in the defeat of Japan in World War II
15 Aug 2020|Andrew Ross

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Fascinating article from ASPI, outlining why Australian industrial production and scientific Research were the reasons Japan never invaded Australia.
I had no idea Australia was feeding 1,000,000 US Soldiers in the Pacific theatre!
And all possible because of preparations made in the 1930s.
Echoes with what is happening Today?


The role of Australian industrial power in the defeat of Japan in World War II
15 Aug 2020|Andrew Ross

Yep, so was NZ. In New Guinea the RNZAF provided radar coverage for the USAAC in 1942. NZ was supplying radars to the US along with food and war material. In 1946 when the Lend-Lease bills were tallied up, NZ didn't owe a cent because of reverse Lend-Lease. I would suggest that Australia would be much the same. That's one of the reasons why both countries had booming economies in the 1950s and 60s.
 

rawcs

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Fascinating article from ASPI, outlining why Australian industrial production and scientific Research were the reasons Japan never invaded Australia.
I had no idea Australia was feeding 1,000,000 US Soldiers in the Pacific theatre!
And all possible because of preparations made in the 1930s.
Echoes with what is happening Today?


The role of Australian industrial power in the defeat of Japan in World War II
15 Aug 2020|Andrew Ross

Ross' book Armed and ready: The industrial development and defence of Australia, 1900–1945 is fascinating, I cannot recommend it more highly. It is out of print these days but if you can pick up a second hand copy it would be well worth it.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It looks like Scomo was serious at the beginning of the pandemic when he, the DefMin and others announced that new defence spending would be brought forward to help the economy.

Quite the reverse of what some are predicting- reduction of defence budgets.

oldsig

 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
It looks like Scomo was serious at the beginning of the pandemic when he, the DefMin and others announced that new defence spending would be brought forward to help the economy.

Quite the reverse of what some are predicting- reduction of defence budgets.

oldsig

It will be interesting to see the proposed details of the large hull vessel for use in the Pacific as well as what additional training days will be provided to the Reserves.
 
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