Matters of racial and social justice are often a triumph of personal feelings over facts. I feel like I am a woman But I was born a male. It’s so far off topic here but I can’t resist. Men can’t have babies. Equality was previously about giving women a fair go (Which I whole heartedly support) Now it’s about letting mediocre men beat women at swimming.
Get back on to topic please.
cdxbow
Well-Known Member
SMH has as article describing Hypersonic development Australia to build hypersonic missiles with US and Britain as arms race heats up (smh.com.au) along with recent missile acquisition and nuclear sub development. Short on details re hypesonics but there was one para that caught my eye:
'The three leaders also confirmed they were progressing with their plans to develop undersea drones, with initial trials planned for next year, as well as new quantum and artificial intelligence technologies.'
'The three leaders also confirmed they were progressing with their plans to develop undersea drones, with initial trials planned for next year, as well as new quantum and artificial intelligence technologies.'
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
AUKUS leaders report on progress after six months - Australian Defence Magazine
Australia, the United States and the United Kingdom have released a joint statement on their progress on cooperation under the AUKUS agreement, through which Australia will acquire nuclear-powered sub...
www.australiandefence.com.au
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Marcus Hellyer is an idiot (apologies to all the other idiots out there).
Here is his latest example of being an idiot:
www.aspistrategist.org.au
Why is he an idiot? Read these two paragraphs from the article (read them a couple of times):
“Acquisition of the NSM raises some interesting issues. Integrating the NSM onto the F-35A has always been part of the capability program since it’s the only long-range anti-ship missile that will fit inside the F-35A’s payload bay. Arguably, it was delays to the integration of the F-35 and NSM (clearly the international Joint Strike Fighter consortium that sets the work program doesn’t regard a maritime strike weapon to be as high a priority as we do) that led to the government’s July 2020 announcement of a Plan B for maritime strike, which is to integrate the long-range anti-ship missile (LRASM) onto the Super Hornet.
“But this announcement says the NSM is being acquired for the navy’s major surface combatants, not for the F-35A. Certainly NSMs are a major improvement over the Harpoon missiles currently in navy service, particularly in terms of range and stealth. But the NSM don’t have the range of the significantly larger LRASM, so it would be interesting to hear why Defence opted for NSMs over LRASMs, although it’s always possible that LRASMs could still be acquired.”
Now before I explain why he is an idiot, he also wrote this in the article too:
“I’ll attempt to unpack three recent announcements, though I have to admit it’s a little hard to do, even for someone who follows this stuff full-time.”
So, he says “even for someone who follows this stuff full-time”, well for someone who follows “this stuff” full time, he really doesn’t know his arse from his elbow.
Integrating NSM to F-35A? What?? Seriously?
Clearly after all these many years Marcus doesn’t know the difference between NSM and JSM, clearly not.
They are NOT the same missile, NSM is a surfaced launched missile, it is box launched from either a ship or from land.
On the other hand JSM (which is a later and further evolution of NSM), is designed to be air launched from the internal weapons bay of either F-35A or F-35C (the weapons bay in F-35B is too small), it can also be potentially carried externally on all three F-35 models (has also been externally test fitted to Super Hornet).
This is not just a ‘typo’, not a simple mistake calling JSM the NSM. Multiple times he refers to NSM and F-35A together, no mention of JSM, it’s not a simple mistake.
He also goes on to ‘claim’ that there are delays in NSM (read JSM) integration onto F-35A is not a ‘high’ priority, what??
My understanding is that Norway and Japan have ordered JSM, Finland plans to, and of course there is still the potential for the RAAF.
Delays are related to Block 4, not that NSM (read JSM) is not a priority for the nations that have it on order.
He also clearly is confused regarding the claim the ADF acquired NSM over LRASM, again what??
The old ship based Harpoon is being replaced by NSM, but air launched Harpoon on Super Hornet (and probably Poseidon) is being replaced by LRASM, and potentially in the future on F-35A.
Anyway.....
Rant almost over, I’ve got a generic contact email address for ASPI, does anyone here have a direct email for Marcus? (I want to email him directly).
One last parting shot, before linking articles from ASPI here on DT, have a good read and think, it could be another idiot post.
Cheers,
PS, here is a NSM and JSM spec sheet:
Here is his latest example of being an idiot:
Making sense of Australia’s salvo of missile announcements | The Strategist
The government delivered a barrage of missile announcements over the past couple of days. It’s not easy to distinguish what’s new from a semi-announcement of something that’s already been announced or is an existing part ...
www.aspistrategist.org.au
Why is he an idiot? Read these two paragraphs from the article (read them a couple of times):
“Acquisition of the NSM raises some interesting issues. Integrating the NSM onto the F-35A has always been part of the capability program since it’s the only long-range anti-ship missile that will fit inside the F-35A’s payload bay. Arguably, it was delays to the integration of the F-35 and NSM (clearly the international Joint Strike Fighter consortium that sets the work program doesn’t regard a maritime strike weapon to be as high a priority as we do) that led to the government’s July 2020 announcement of a Plan B for maritime strike, which is to integrate the long-range anti-ship missile (LRASM) onto the Super Hornet.
“But this announcement says the NSM is being acquired for the navy’s major surface combatants, not for the F-35A. Certainly NSMs are a major improvement over the Harpoon missiles currently in navy service, particularly in terms of range and stealth. But the NSM don’t have the range of the significantly larger LRASM, so it would be interesting to hear why Defence opted for NSMs over LRASMs, although it’s always possible that LRASMs could still be acquired.”
Now before I explain why he is an idiot, he also wrote this in the article too:
“I’ll attempt to unpack three recent announcements, though I have to admit it’s a little hard to do, even for someone who follows this stuff full-time.”
So, he says “even for someone who follows this stuff full-time”, well for someone who follows “this stuff” full time, he really doesn’t know his arse from his elbow.
Integrating NSM to F-35A? What?? Seriously?
Clearly after all these many years Marcus doesn’t know the difference between NSM and JSM, clearly not.
They are NOT the same missile, NSM is a surfaced launched missile, it is box launched from either a ship or from land.
On the other hand JSM (which is a later and further evolution of NSM), is designed to be air launched from the internal weapons bay of either F-35A or F-35C (the weapons bay in F-35B is too small), it can also be potentially carried externally on all three F-35 models (has also been externally test fitted to Super Hornet).
This is not just a ‘typo’, not a simple mistake calling JSM the NSM. Multiple times he refers to NSM and F-35A together, no mention of JSM, it’s not a simple mistake.
He also goes on to ‘claim’ that there are delays in NSM (read JSM) integration onto F-35A is not a ‘high’ priority, what??
My understanding is that Norway and Japan have ordered JSM, Finland plans to, and of course there is still the potential for the RAAF.
Delays are related to Block 4, not that NSM (read JSM) is not a priority for the nations that have it on order.
He also clearly is confused regarding the claim the ADF acquired NSM over LRASM, again what??
The old ship based Harpoon is being replaced by NSM, but air launched Harpoon on Super Hornet (and probably Poseidon) is being replaced by LRASM, and potentially in the future on F-35A.
Anyway.....
Rant almost over, I’ve got a generic contact email address for ASPI, does anyone here have a direct email for Marcus? (I want to email him directly).
One last parting shot, before linking articles from ASPI here on DT, have a good read and think, it could be another idiot post.
Cheers,
PS, here is a NSM and JSM spec sheet:
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This may be branded as idiotic also...but in the interests of letting every idiot have their say!
johnmenadue.com
Proposes a rather large shopping list. Without going into many of the pros and cons..eg the Navy Fantasy Fleet Including Arleigh Burkes thats has been pulverised on the RAN thread, here are some of the bigger wish list items.
36 X P8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft,
12 More ...or is it 36 more??? Super hornets while waiting to see how the B21 turns out
Substantial Numbers of possibly MQ20 Predator C and More Tritons
ABM System
More missiles but this appears to be an area where these is even less knowledge and could only name tomahwak.
Of these...the only 1 that I think makes immediate sense is more P8s (not 36) with their current and coming weapons set they do pose a formidable threat to almost any navy coming in our direction.
Admiral Prune: Defending Australia Part 3 of 4: What sort of ADF do we need? - Pearls and Irritations
Commentators suggest that the Morrison Government is attempting to frame a “khaki election”. It would be far better were it a “blue election” - sea and sky blue.
johnmenadue.com
Proposes a rather large shopping list. Without going into many of the pros and cons..eg the Navy Fantasy Fleet Including Arleigh Burkes thats has been pulverised on the RAN thread, here are some of the bigger wish list items.
36 X P8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft,
12 More ...or is it 36 more??? Super hornets while waiting to see how the B21 turns out
Substantial Numbers of possibly MQ20 Predator C and More Tritons
ABM System
More missiles but this appears to be an area where these is even less knowledge and could only name tomahwak.
Of these...the only 1 that I think makes immediate sense is more P8s (not 36) with their current and coming weapons set they do pose a formidable threat to almost any navy coming in our direction.
Well the wish lists seems insane, but hey just mentioning Nuclear Subs on this forum used to basically get you banned because "it'd never happen", so who really knows?
Just a few points...
It mentions having previously had 34 Orions - really? When was that? I cannot find a reference to us actually operating that many. 36 P-8s is a huge number. That's not just a lot more airframes, that's a lot of crew to train up.
Still looking for an "F-111 replacement"? What on earth is that all about? Surely between airframes, tankers and stand-off weapons our ability now would surpass what the F-111 would have given us in both land and maritime strike?
Assuming there are no untold big issues with the Ghost Bat, I'd double-down on it and invest heavily and accelerate greatly. Domestic build, no conflict/competition for the ship builds that are already in place, low-risk and much faster compared to manned aircraft development.
Just a few points...
It mentions having previously had 34 Orions - really? When was that? I cannot find a reference to us actually operating that many. 36 P-8s is a huge number. That's not just a lot more airframes, that's a lot of crew to train up.
Still looking for an "F-111 replacement"? What on earth is that all about? Surely between airframes, tankers and stand-off weapons our ability now would surpass what the F-111 would have given us in both land and maritime strike?
Assuming there are no untold big issues with the Ghost Bat, I'd double-down on it and invest heavily and accelerate greatly. Domestic build, no conflict/competition for the ship builds that are already in place, low-risk and much faster compared to manned aircraft development.
According to ADF Serials, the RAAF operated a total of 33 P-3B, P-3C and AP-3C Orions but AFAIK the most operated at any one time was around 20 (10 P3B and 10 P-3C). Altogether 20 P-3Cs were acquired (the second batch replaced the Bs) supplemented by 3 ex USN P-3Bs used for training. 18 of the P3-Cs were updated to AP-3C standard. A 34th ex USN P-3B was purchased but for spares only!
Tas
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Agree completely.
It’s like saying the RAAF operated 48 C-130.
True, but not at the same time, 12xA + 12xE, but then 12xH replaced the 12xA, and then 12xJ replaced 12xE, maximum is 24 at any one time.
One could also make a list of total subs, or frigates or destroyers that have served, but not at the same time though.
There was also the crash of a P3 off the Cocos Islands on 26 April 1991. The Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives records the Serial as A9-754. I think it was not airworthy after the crash and of the 4 crew and 17 passengers on board 1 passenger was killed after a propeller punctured the fuselage.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Yes sadly that is true, a P-3C was lost on the Cocos Islands with loss of life.
But it wasn’t the only loss, one P-3B was lost to fire prior to delivery, a second hand USN aircraft was procured as a replacement.
Another P-3B was written off after a fire in 1984 too.
The total number was 34, not 33 (if you add the replacement that covered the P-3B fire loss before delivery, plus another ‘spares’ airframe held in the USA).
OK so I will bite on this comment !!
Absolute rubbish !! and to be honest just goes to show you have not understood what has been said in the past on this subject !!
The talk of SSN's for the RAN was always shut down because in the last 20+ years not a single Government, the ADF, the general public had shown any movement on the stance of a non nuclear submarine fleet, it was always out of the question, full stop !!
Was there are case for it ? yep there was, and that was discussed ad nauseam !! But always drifted into fantasy fleet discussion which has never been and will never be accepted on this forum !!
What was always said was until Government and public sentiment changed that discussion on this subject was fantasy and not acceptable based on the Governments stance !
Where we all taken by surprise by the AUKUS press conference an announcement ? yep we were, was it welcomed ? yes it was !! How we have handled it so far and the cancellation of the Attack Class program and the flow on issues it has created is absolutely open for discussion, and to a certain point the crystal balling of what we will end up with, how many, where they are built, what reactor etc, within reason of course.
But your comment is, to be honest, a pathetic attempt at a got ya moment ! We can all dream in fantasy, we try to keep it in the realm of realism based on current circumstance and Government policy dusted with industrial and capability reality !!
Hey dont forget our fighters! We have one of the largest fleets. 48 F-35's, 24 Super Hornets, 12 + 1 Growlers, 75 Hornets, 114 Mirage III's, 112 Sabres.... Honestly why any one is worried about defending our air space with such a large fleet I dont know.....
If I wanted a got ya moment I would've come in here with it long ago. I didn't even remember which mods would snap at it. I think you need to take a deep breath.
There's there rest of the post there you could've focused on.
@phreeky No need for that. I have been following the conversation and you are out of order. I was alerted by a third party.
Ngatimozart.
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No you do not direct what I do or do not focus on because challenging your comment makes you feel uncomfortable !
I selected that specific comment for the very reasons I pointed out, you deliberately led your post with that baiting comment, so I took the bait !
Guys, play the ball, not the man! I don’t expect to have to intervene again.
OPSSG
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Honestly surprised at the response. FYI I never even suggested nukes myself, always considered it a pretty far fetched idea.
But hey there is these other pretty extreme procurement decisions we should be focusing on. Like I said, I think the Ghost Bat or similar future options in significant options are almost a sure thing, but the idea of rapid scale up on manned options comes with significant risk and logistical challenges that are too great and have time frames that are far too difficult to compress.
But hey there is these other pretty extreme procurement decisions we should be focusing on. Like I said, I think the Ghost Bat or similar future options in significant options are almost a sure thing, but the idea of rapid scale up on manned options comes with significant risk and logistical challenges that are too great and have time frames that are far too difficult to compress.
I can confirm that JSM has been ordered by both Norway and Japan, see e.g. Norway orders Joint Strike Missile | ADBR
FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
Nice to see that the folks in charge are not wasting much time in beginning the process.
cdxbow
Well-Known Member
I've enjoyed Mick Ryan's articles in the Fairfax press about the war in the Ukraine and the ADF, a real step up in the quality of the local commentary. In the recent one he talks about missiles, seems every man and his dog is talking about missiles at the moment Hypersonic missiles are just the start if Australia is to secure its sovereignty (smh.com.au) It warmed my heart to see him proposing a ground based long range strike capability.
Don't push your luck.