6th Generation Fighters Projects

[StevoJH]

The radar is not Swedish either.

The original radar for the Gripen was based on the Blue Vixen fitted to the Sea Harrier. I'm not sure if the radar in the E/F model is an updated version of the original radar, but its a Leonardo product.

 

[John Fedup]

Tempest will have some components from vendors not located in Japan, UK or Italy and had FCAS proceeded it would have had components from outside Germany Spain and France. Certainly Sweden will require more foreign input than Tempest. A gen 5.5 with CCA is good enough for Sweden.

 

[Ananda]

The F-16 and its later variants is an affordable and effective platform. The F-35 for many nations is unaffordable.

I believe the premises that you put is 2050+, potentially the Gen 4.5 production line already stop altogether. F-35 can be what F-16 at this moment.

 

[John Fedup]

I believe the premises that you put is 2050+, potentially the Gen 4.5 production line already stop altogether. F-35 can be what F-16 at this moment.

Will probably take until 2050+ just for LM to deliver on their promises,

 

[Terran]

The F-16 and its later variants is an affordable and effective platform. The F-35 for many nations is unaffordable. Its cost of operation and readiness rate are disappointing. These drawbacks are somewhat overcome by the F-35’s stealth and situation awareness advantages. Gen 4.5+ together with CCA might be a better solution to than a F-35+ for many airforces.

Using modern metrics yes. The problem for this argument is that F35’s support base is still expanding. The next Tech refresh includes major alterations that are to change the standards of Stealth coatings which is a major factor in readiness along with expansion of engine and maintenance facilities.
When F16 was brand new it suffered all of theses issues too. Including an HBO movie that called it a “lawn dart”. F16 evolved over its service life to what it is today. Just as F35 will continue to evolve. as to cost. The Rule is and remains that the more you build the less it costs. F35C will remain the most expensive option of the line due to its low numbers. F35A however is already at a cost point per unit rivaling brand new F16 Block 70.

 

[swerve]

The radar is not Swedish either.

The original radar for the Gripen was based on the Blue Vixen fitted to the Sea Harrier. I'm not sure if the radar in the E/F model is an updated version of the original radar, but its a Leonardo product.

It's a new AESA radar from Leonardo in Scotland, but IIRC has some SAAB input. It was designed specifically for Gripen E, & won't fit in Gripen C/D. SAAB designed an AESA version of the PS-05/A to fit the C/D, but AFAIK hasn't sold any.

 

[koxinga]

We can put it in simpler terms:

- GCAP (UK, ITA, JAP) is open for new participants but the program is already quite advanced. No room for major workshares or anything, unless you pay A LOT.

- DASSAULT will go for their own plane as always. I think in the end they will partner with some minor european partner and a major foreign one (INDIA?)

- GER, SWE, SPA, etc etc will have to figure out what they want to do and they have 3 choices:
1) join an ongoing program
2) buy off-the-shelf (unlikely)
3) make their own

The Swedes have fairly unique needs, and I don't seem them requiring a large, twin engine design or perhaps even a 6th generation. Their FCAS concepts are draw heavily on single engine designs, and using CCAs as a multipler. From a market position perspective, it offers something cheaper and exportable.

Germany/Spain are stuck in between a rock and hard place. On their own, they might have too little capacity to do a 6th generation program, but they have a number of industries which they need to keep alive (the MTUs, Hensoldts, Diehls, Indras as part of Team Gen 6). The GCAP program I feel, is unlikely to want to review workshare programs or can only offer small pieces which will not satisfy these industrial companies.

 

[Ananda]

Pick Sweden over British fighter jet offer, German defense officials urge Berlin

Internal documents assess Germany should pursue a new warplane project with Sweden and Spain, warning that the existing alternative could leave it with too little influence.

www.politico.eu

Not really surprising, as enter GCAP will not give German Industry much workload access. Even can be less then FCAS with French. So German want to go with Spain and Sweden, and Spain already shown willingness to do it. Now what's left if convince Sweden.

French will go by their own, and using Rafale F5 as interim. They are quite sure will got strong export market as like Rafale now days.

 

[John Fedup]

Pick Sweden over British fighter jet offer, German defense officials urge Berlin

Internal documents assess Germany should pursue a new warplane project with Sweden and Spain, warning that the existing alternative could leave it with too little influence.

www.politico.eu

Not really surprising, as enter GCAP will not give German Industry much workload access. Even can be less then FCAS with French. So German want to go with Spain and Sweden, and Spain already shown willingness to do it. Now what's left if convince Sweden.

French will go by their own, and using Rafale F5 as interim. They are quite sure will got strong export market as like Rafale now days.

Tough choice for Sweden, Spain isn’t exactly an economic powerhouse these days albeit either is the UK at the moment especially with all their pressing defence needs (RN and army, anti-drone kit, Ukraine donations). In my limited opinion, GCAP seems like a better bet given its progress relative to whatever concept Germany and Spain have in mind.

 

[koxinga]

Tough choice for Sweden, Spain isn’t exactly an economic powerhouse these days albeit either is the UK at the moment especially with all their pressing defence needs (RN and army, anti-drone kit, Ukraine donations). In my limited opinion, GCAP seems like a better bet given its progress relative to whatever concept Germany and Spain have in mind.

All these horse trading is about industrial access, and less about the platform itself.

The fact that GCAP is further along the line means the existing consortium have little need to add a new partner, which would end up to be diluting their own share of the pie.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So joining the GCAP program means access to a 6th generation fighter (and EF2000 replacement) before 2040 (hopefully), but almost no workshare for the German defence industry. An own program with potential participation of Spain and Sweden gives more workshare and the possibility for the German defence industry to keep the knowledge and expertise and to develop, but the Luftwaffe has to wait patiently to after 2050 for a EF2000 replacement.

It is maybe better to order a small amount of GCAPs as an interim solution.