Indonesia: 'green water navy'

By Sept target, PAL seems stick to the plan to install sensors and armament in two stages. Stage 1 base on main contract (dark blue) and Stage 2 base on FFBNW contract (light blue). No difference then most of their other job so far. As this reflect MinDef contractual time table practices.

Garibaldi in Taronto awaiting transfer to Indonesia. While 100 crews will be send by TNI-AL as forward crews to bring Garibaldi to Indonesia Jemput Kapal Induk Garibaldi, 100 Prajurit TNI AL ke Italia Bulan Depan. I suspect means it will be have sceleton crew, perhaps with Fincantieri and Italian Marina Militare supervisors to asses the transfer.

Potentially it will be in Marina Militare configuration by 5th of october military display, before Fincantieri and it's local partner conduct modification work.

Ananda said:

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Garibaldi in Taronto awaiting transfer to Indonesia. While 100 crews will be send by TNI-AL as forward crews to bring Garibaldi to Indonesia Jemput Kapal Induk Garibaldi, 100 Prajurit TNI AL ke Italia Bulan Depan. I suspect means it will be have sceleton crew, perhaps with Fincantieri and Italian Marina Militare supervisors to asses the transfer.

Potentially it will be in Marina Militare configuration by 5th of october military display, before Fincantieri and it's local partner conduct modification work.

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With other words in total stripped off condition.
The urge to show off new toys during Hari ABRI is always so impressive. Like it is such a problem if they have to wait for one more year.

Well, lets appreciate the fact that they didn't go for the acquisition of those old worn-out AV-8Bs, only as a 'proof' that the ship is a real aircraft carrier.

From FB Enthusiats id Markicap. The OPV 98 seems also ready to be hand over. So asside FMP, those 2 OPV 98 (basically corvette) going to be ready for 5th of October.

Sandhi Yudha said:

Well, lets appreciate the fact that they didn't go for the acquisition of those old worn-out AV-8Bs, only as a 'proof' that the ship is a real aircraft carrier.

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The Italian already offering, and some 'western' minded defense influencers (including you know who) already spreading the idea operating old AV-8B is better then turn the carrier as UAV carrier. The thinking that coming from 'spite' simply because they know the UAV will be Turkish made.

It will be a combo of UAV and Helicopter carrier. The question know at this rate the helicopters will be mostly Bell 412 and AS365 Dauphin. Something those Euro Salesman not happy, as they want money for Turkish UAV being move to more Euro Helicopters.

That's the realities of defense brokerage doing marketing lobby.

First steel cutting of Scorpene Evo will begin this month. Two Scorpene Evo will be build in pararel with one year apart. NG confirm that not only the submarines under Scorpene Republik Indonesia (SRI) program will have capabilities to not only launch Exocet SM39, but also under development Exocet SM40.

Also from this id FB Markicap upload asside system instalation project for FMP Baladewa, PAL also fasten instalation project for MLU Usman Harun Light Frigate/Corvette. Both seems being fasten to catch up 5th of october sail pass.

Ananda said:

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From FB Enthusiats id Markicap. The OPV 98 seems also ready to be hand over. So asside FMP, those 2 OPV 98 (basically corvette) going to be ready for 5th of October.

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It looks like a decent design, with the right size, sufficient endurance and capable enough. Hopefully this class can replace the Parchim I class one by one.

Ananda said:

The Italian already offering, and some 'western' minded defense influencers (including you know who) already spreading the idea operating old AV-8B is better then turn the carrier as UAV carrier. The thinking that coming from 'spite' simply because they know the UAV will be Turkish made.

It will be a combo of UAV and Helicopter carrier. The question know at this rate the helicopters will be mostly Bell 412 and AS365 Dauphin. Something those Euro Salesman not happy, as they want money for Turkish UAV being move to more Euro Helicopters.

That's the realities of defense brokerage doing marketing lobby.

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He will definitely change his mind, if TNI-AL plans to order the SAGEM Sperwer. Unfortunately for him, that UAV is now obsolete, taken out of service by many armed forces, and probably also not anymore in production.

Ananda said:

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Also from this id FB Markicap upload asside system instalation project for FMP Baladewa, PAL also fasten instalation project for MLU Usman Harun Light Frigate/Corvette. Both seems being fasten to catch up 5th of october sail pass.

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That, is the power of 5 Oktober.

Sandhi Yudha said:

looks like a decent design, with the right size, sufficient endurance and capable enough. Hopefully this class can replace the Parchim I class one by one.

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From what I heard there are 3 corvette design being consider for Parchim Replacement:
1. OPV-98 from Noahtu Shipyard,
2. Bung Hatta from Karimun Shipyard,

3. FCX-30 that being proposed by Fincantieri.

Budget wise, I still think #2 more in line replacing most Parchim as #1 bit pricier. However I still predict combo #1 & #2 will be the ones replacing Parchim.

#3 gain momentum after Fincantieri choose Republikorp Palindo shipyard as partner. However I see #3 design more to aim for Light Frigate program that being freeze after Damen 10514. So not really for Parchim replacement.

Sandhi Yudha said:

He will definitely change his mind, if TNI-AL plans to order the SAGEM Sperwer. Unfortunately for him, that UAV is now obsolete, taken out of service by many armed forces, and probably also not anymore in production.

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I'm sure it's not in production. I think the last delivery was over ten years ago, of the upgraded Sperwer B.

swerve said:

I think the last delivery was over ten years ago, of the upgraded Sperwer B.

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SAGEM recently licensed production of the successor model to Sperwer B (Patroller) to Egypt because it's considered second-rate and halfway obsolete, so... yeah...

What if Fincantieri offer 2 of this last batch of Sauro class as Interim Submarine until their offer on U212NFS become operational ? That's the rumours that I heard from finance circles, as part of Fincantieri campaign.

2+2 Scorpene Evo will take all capacity of PAL Submarine facility for at least 7-10 years, even with 2+2 pararel building. 2 Drass DK midget submarine seems going to be build also in Italy. Thus any Fincantieri offer going to be build in my opinion in Italy, as PAL has the only submarine building facility in Indonesia.

Thus the offer being forwarded by Fincantieri as Indonesia still want to have 8-12 Submarine in long term plan. While in same time it is not possible all can be supplies by PAL/NG alone, within the time line being envisaged.

Ananda said:

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What if Fincantieri offer 2 of this last batch of Sauro class as Interim Submarine until their offer on U212NFS become operational ? That's the rumours that I heard from finance circles, as part of Fincantieri campaign.

2+2 Scorpene Evo will take all capacity of PAL Submarine facility for at least 7-10 years, even with 2+2 pararel building. 2 Drass DK midget submarine seems going to be build also in Italy. Thus any Fincantieri offer going to be build in my opinion in Italy, as PAL has the only submarine building facility in Indonesia.

Thus the offer being forwarded by Fincantieri as Indonesia still want to have 8-12 Submarine in long term plan. While in same time it is not possible all can be supplies by PAL/NG alone, within the time line being envisaged.

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Four (2+2) Scorpènes, six (2+4) DGK, three Type 209/1400.... that's in total 13 submarines. And at the time the last Scorpène or DGK is commissioned, we can start to replace the Chang Bogo's by more Scorpènes/DGKs or something new.

Personally i don't see a good reason to unnecessarily buy old second hand submarines. For the new submarines we can recruit naturally and slowly additional crew, using experience over the years from operating the new models. For such an interim solution we suddenly have to recruit and train a seperated group for just two boats. And once again, special training, procedures, support equipment and spareparts.
This would be the opposite of "efisiensi anggaran". It is just better to keep the budget what is left over for the three submarine types mentioned above.

Sandhi Yudha said:

Four (2+2) Scorpènes, six (2+4) DGK, three Type 209/1400.... that's in total 13 submarines. And at the time the last Scorpène or DGK is commissioned, we can start to replace the Chang Bogo's by more Scorpènes/DGKs or something new.

Personally i don't see a good reason to unnecessarily buy old second hand submarines. For the new submarines we can recruit naturally and slowly additional crew, using experience over the years from operating the new models. For such an interim solution we suddenly have to recruit and train a seperated group for just two boats. And once again, special training, procedures, support equipment and spareparts.
This would be the opposite of "efisiensi anggaran". It is just better to keep the budget what is left over for the three submarine types mentioned above.

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Agree about older subs, except for ex JMSDF. They are the sole navy that has predictable hull refresh and what they retire seems to still be very capable. If the price is right .......

Sandhi Yudha said:

Four (2+2) Scorpènes, six (2+4) DGK, three Type 209/1400.... that's in total 13 submarines.

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I'm not quite sure DGK will be 6, I heard some noises that it will stay at 2. Seems PAL convince MinDef to put more investment for their KSOT to do DGK functions of Choke Point defense and undersea inviltration. However 4 additional Sub asside Scorpene Evo and DSME 209 still being sought. This will be build at overseas yard, and that's where Italy and Japan marketing lobby coming for.

x100 XKR said:

Agree about older subs, except for ex JMSDF.

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JMSDF sources claim the last 4 Oyashio already upgrade to have Soryu capabilities. In sense it still can work up to 2040+.

Why not just buy more Scorpene class and benefit from logistics and training benefits of having a single class in service?

Same question with all the frigate classes being inducted, why not just choose something and stick with it? Sure have different tiers of combatant if you want, but it seems like Indonesia orders a different class of ship every 5 minutes rather than expanding on what they already have.

StevoJH said:

Why not just buy more Scorpene class and benefit from logistics and training benefits of having a single class in service?

Same question with all the frigate classes being inducted, why not just choose something and stick with it? Sure have different tiers of combatant if you want, but it seems like Indonesia orders a different class of ship every 5 minutes rather than expanding on what they already have.

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This has been discussed before. The belief that Indonesia must never rely on any single supplier for any single type of defense item is real and pervasive. Thus ships, submarines, jet fighters, armour, all must be sourced from at least two different countries. Complicating the matter, there are factions in both politics and military, each must be kept happy. For example, Megawati Sukarnoputri believes that Russia is a friend of Indonesia and thus getting Russian defense systems is a good idea because Russia isn't going to yank them away like the US did. And well, Megawati is the head of PDI-P, the largest political party in Indonesia, and while the military is supposed to stay out of politics, that doesn't mean high-ranking officers don't develop their own personal relationships with political parties. Military procurement is a way to both weaken your political rival while throwing some meat to your own supporters. E.g., the decision to back-off from KF-21 is a way to weaken the influence of ex-president Yudhoyono and his party and his faction in the military. PDI-P would then rather buy Su-35, but CAATSA makes it difficult. Some other faction would then rather get more F-16, but some other faction doesn't want to rely on US systems, thus in the end Rafale was chosen as a compromise.

StevoJH said:

Why not just buy more Scorpene class and benefit from logistics and training benefits of having a single class in service?

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Just to add what @tonnyc already wrote. If TNI got 2 types in each asset catagory, then it is already logistics eficients from TNI operational pov.

Ananda said:

Just to add what @tonnyc already wrote. If TNI got 2 types in each asset catagory, then it is already logistics eficients from TNI operational pov.

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Lets talk Submarines for a second.

You have some new U209's which seems an odd choice in itself, plus some Scorpene class under construction.
- Different engines
- Different batteries
- Different CMS
- Different Sonar
- etc

So that means different training for the crew, different spares lists. It means that if someone mission critical gets injured or sick you are less likely to be able to just transfer someone from another submarine to fill that gap. It means that you potentially have to keep twice as many spare parts. It means you need to have two separate training pipelines. It means two separate programs for MLU in 10-15 years time.

Hardly efficient from an operational POV, and may mean less total units purchased or operational than a single class purchase. And since they both originate from NATO countries, is there any benefit from that perspective?

But if that is what the politicians want.......

StevoJH said:

Lets talk Submarines for a second.

You have some new U209's which seems an odd choice in itself, plus some Scorpene class under construction.
- Different engines
- Different batteries
- Different CMS
- Different Sonar
- etc

So that means different training for the crew, different spares lists. It means that if someone mission critical gets injured or sick you are less likely to be able to just transfer someone from another submarine to fill that gap. It means that you potentially have to keep twice as many spare parts. It means you need to have two separate training pipelines. It means two separate programs for MLU in 10-15 years time.

Hardly efficient from an operational POV, and may mean less total units purchased or operational than a single class purchase. And since they both originate from NATO countries, is there any benefit from that perspective?

But if that is what the politicians want.......

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Is there any benefit? Well, yes. Ignoring the banal stuff like alleged lobbyists allegedly handing out benefits to alleged officials (which nobody has proven, hence alleged), and the international exchange of favours ("we'll buy your stuff if you agree to drop the tariff"), there is also the emotional feeling of "safety" in that no matter which country pulled their support, we will always have an alternative.

But honestly, even if we account for "two sources for everything" approach, the current mismatches are too wide to be explained away by the approach. My opinion is that our military as a whole doesn't actually know what they want. They don't have a high concept that they can follow and make procurement decisions based on that concept. So cliques compete to get the government to buy things that they want for whatever reason and since the civilian side wants to keep the military side happy, they'll approve whatever the currently dominant clique proposes.

Oh, we have a White Paper and similar stuff just like any other nation. But the generals and admirals and air marshalls don't actually follow them. Not if it means not getting their stuff.

StevoJH said:

means that you potentially have to keep twice as many spare parts. It means you need to have two separate training pipelines. It means two separate programs for MLU in 10-15 years time.

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If only two then TNI already in relative good logistics situation for their situation challanges. Combination of budget opportunity, geopolitics logics (of Indonesian pov), local political balances, and changes on "taste", all are in play toward the lobbyist game.

During Soekarno and Soeharto era, it is more manageable as only one "taste" as final decision. Geopolitics also more straighforward. All changes when 'democracy' come to play. Democracy means more "taste" has to be manage.

Back to Submarine, sometime ago when he's still Defense Minister, Prabowo's come out on the concept tactical and strategic submarines. In sense from that point on, at least two type of submarine being sought. More litoral tactical and more blue water strategic ones. Many including me tought the tactical will be DSME 209 (batch 1 and 2), and NG Scorpene as blue water strategic submarine.

This then "taste" and politics come in. The electrical problem of DSME 209 batch 1, then being use by others (faction, marketing lobbyst, etc), to 'scuttle' DSME 209 batch 2. Use the chance on finding alternatives ranging from quality up to get better capabilities (thus more budget). This is where Italian U212NFS, DGK Midget, Chinese S-26, and Japanese refurbished Oyashio (toward Soryu standard) coming to equation. Not to mention ROK keep lobby to maintain DSME (now Hanwha Ocean) still in play.

So which one going to be use for this tactical submarine ? I honestly only can guess like everyone else. My prediction is whoever meet the budget and timeline.