Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

https://x.com/i/status/2060029638575878517

Rumours of 2nd Batch of Scorpene Evo being circulate by French Enthusiats. This rumours actually being circulate few days ago. It is also rumours that during his visit to Italy next, the 2nd Batch of PPA going to be activate.

So if the 2nd batch being taken, just like arrowhead 140, makes 4 on each Scorpene Evo and PPA. Perhaps magic number now increase from 2 to 4.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Images appear on the internet of KRI Usman-Harun 359 getting the HSA SMART-S Mk.2 installed. At last.

https://www.facebook.com/61556341982997/posts/122325480566211399

 

[Ananda]

I believe the VLS seems also being replace to VL MICA from VL Seawolf. The tubes containment seems already difference. It is been circulate that the VL Mica procurement has been done.

 

[Ananda]

Japan Ministry of Defense

www.mod.go.jp

Previously it is speculated by Japanese media that Indonesia want transfer some of Oyashio class submarine. However this press release talk on Asagiri Class Destroyer. Altough it is talk also on other equipment.

There are 6 Asagiri class that still in JMSDF imventory. It is larger then Abukuma DE that Japan already talk to transfer to Philipines, but at the same age. Thus shown it is also on way out. However unlike Abukuma it is all Gas Turbine propulsion. Something that clearly shown more expensive to run.

Previously it is being talk that PLAN Type 053H3 is the one being talk to be transfer as Interim Frigate. If Japan then talk on Asagiri, then clearly it is being aimed to cut China diplomacy effort.

From rumours in here as for Oyashio, Japan try to cut China plan for transfer of Type 036 class submarine. Will this offer happening or already change to Asigiri ? Remain to be seen.


When Koizumi shown his Indonesian counterpart Sjamsoedin on Asagiri model last year. So the talk on Asagiri is actually not a new thing.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia Eyes JMSDF Asagiri-Class Destroyers as Japan Tailors Warship Transfers to Southeast Asian Partners - Naval News

Japan and Indonesia have agreed to begin working-level discussions on the possible transfer of used Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Asagiri-class destroyers, marking another step in Tokyo’s expanding defense export policy and highlighting how Japan is tailoring naval cooperation to the...

www.navalnews.com

A Japanese Journalist Contributor for Naval Group talk more on Asagiri potential transfer to Indonesia. Difference from Abukuma that being slotted for Philippines, Asagiri aside larger, also aim for more outside litoral waters.

Many Indonesian enthusiasts (and for this I agree with them), question the recent addition on Gas Turbine on PPA, Garibaldi and now this Asagiri. TNI-AL purposely avoid Gas Turbine and focus more on Diesels, to make it more affordable operationally. Hope the operation budget can cover increase in fuel costs.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia Eyes JMSDF Asagiri-Class Destroyers as Japan Tailors Warship Transfers to Southeast Asian Partners - Naval News

Japan and Indonesia have agreed to begin working-level discussions on the possible transfer of used Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Asagiri-class destroyers, marking another step in Tokyo’s expanding defense export policy and highlighting how Japan is tailoring naval cooperation to the...

www.navalnews.com

A Japanese Journalist Contributor for Naval Group talk more on Asagiri potential transfer to Indonesia. Difference from Abukuma that being slotted for Philippines, Asagiri aside larger, also aim for more outside litoral waters.

Many Indonesian enthusiasts (and for this I agree with them), question the recent addition on Gas Turbine on PPA, Garibaldi and now this Asagiri. TNI-AL purposely avoid Gas Turbine and focus more on Diesels, to make it more affordable operationally. Hope the operation budget can cover increase in fuel costs.

Not only the gasturbine propulsion makes maintenance and operations expensive, but we also have to think about the condition/configuration of the ships during hand-over to Indonesia.

Both classes are armed with a 76 mm naval gun, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, ASROC anti-submarine rocket launchers, and lightweight torpedoes. However, the key differences lie in air-defense and aviation capabilities.

By contrast, the approximately 3,500-ton Asagiri-class destroyer (DD) is equipped with an eight-cell Sea Sparrow surface-to-air missile launcher, two Phalanx CIWS mounts, and facilities to operate an SH-60J anti-submarine warfare helicopter. These features provide significantly greater air-defense, surveillance, and anti-submarine capabilities, making the class a more capable multi-role surface combatant.

There is a big chance that all american sensors and weaponsystems will be removed before delivery. With other words, these vessels will be empty hulls with only the 76 mm guns after entering service with TNI-AL, unless a decent overhaul and modernisation is included in the package.

 

[ComradeVortex]

I almost prefer getting a second hand Type 053H3 over these decommissioned JMSDF ships…

At least those are still in service, and in my opinion, better than the Asagiri-class..

 

[Ananda]

Asagiri still in service this time, and both Asagiri and Type 053H3 actually sloted to be retired by both JMSDF and PLAN. Which is why both type being offered as interim Frigates. On this matter I don't believe Type 053H3 is better then Asagiri, in overall capabilities.

If TNI-AL aim to have ocean going ASW large frigates (as by current standard that's what Asagiri represent), then Asagiri is right choice as interim ASW Frigates. However if the choices for interim GP/Patrol Frigates to replace Van Speijk, then Type 053H3 perhaps can be better due to more economical to run.

In sense we still don't know what purpose that TNI-AL and MinDef really looking for Asagiri, asside it is for Interim purpose.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The strong points of the Type 053H3 are the CODAD-propulsion and the younger age of the class, but these vessels are made in china with chinese systems from the '90s, so inferior quality compared with most of our current fleet and with an unknown compatibility.

The acquisition of both classes means (once again) the introduction of systems from new brands/suppliers. Maybe the stripped off Asagiris can get an MLU/modernisation program similar to the Nakhoda Ragam/Bung Tomo corvettes, but still it will be not a cheap solution for an "interim solution".

I understand that the Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani class frigates need to be replaced soon, but we shouldn't act impulsively and in a rush. At least we have already the SIGMA 10514 and PPA vessels with the Iver Huitfeldts coming soon. And if TNI-AL really urgently needs more vessels, than more TF-100/Istanbul Class frigates can be an option.

 

[swerve]

Not only the gasturbine propulsion makes maintenance and operations expensive, but we also have to think about the condition/configuration of the ships during hand-over to Indonesia.

There is a big chance that all american sensors and weaponsystems will be removed before delivery. With other words, these vessels will be empty hulls with only the 76 mm guns after entering service with TNI-AL, unless a decent overhaul and modernisation is included in the package.

Empty hulls with engines (Japanese licence-built British GTs) & Japanese radars & sonars. They're old, but much newer than the van Speijks.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Empty hulls with engines (Japanese licence-built British GTs) & Japanese radars & sonars. They're old, but much newer than the van Speijks.

After modernisation the Asagiri Class are indeed an improvement over the Van Speijkklasse. But a complete replacement means that Indonesia has to order 6 Asagiris, and adding 6 4900 tons destroyers with gas turbine propulsion to TNI-AL's fleet will heavily drain the navy's budget.

Maybe getting some Oyashio submarines to replace the Type 209/1300 is a better option. Btw, seven of the eight Oyashio-class submarines, seems to already get a service-life extension. The seven boats received extensive refits during their second and third maintenance cycles, which have been planned to bring the vessels to "almost the same level of that of the latest model Sōryū-class submarine, while extending their service lives.

 

[koxinga]

After modernisation the Asagiri Class are indeed an improvement over the Van Speijkklasse. But a complete replacement means that Indonesia has to order 6 Asagiris, and adding 6 4900 tons destroyers with gas turbine propulsion to TNI-AL's fleet will heavily drain the navy's budget.

More likely the last 4 Asagiri, which had received some modernization and are common blk. ASROCs, Mk-29 Seasparrows, Harpoons likely to be removed. Not sure about the Phalanx / Mk-15s though.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

More likely the last 4 Asagiri, which had received some modernization and are common blk. ASROCs, Mk-29 Seasparrows, Harpoons likely to be removed. Not sure about the Phalanx / Mk-15s though.

I expect the Mk.15 Phalanx will be removed too, because transfer to Indonesia means a complicated procedure of requesting approval to the US (if they are even willing to give it), and Japan can keep the Phalanxes to use them for other ships as back up/reserve or for spare parts. All Phalanxes were removed from the Gregorio del Pilar Class frigates before delivery to the Philippines. How about the KD Sri Inderapura, was the Phalanx also removed before transfer to TLDM?

 

[Ananda]

And if TNI-AL really urgently needs more vessels, than more TF-100/Istanbul Class frigates can be an option.

If budget allowed it. Trump war make most of nations has to calculate budget realities again. The problem with Asagiri class more on can those become affordable to TNI-AL operational budget. I believe that after Garibaldi, any large gas turbine vessels need to be calculate again on all the potential upgrade and cost to operate.

More likely the last 4 Asagiri, which had received some modernization and are common blk. ASROCs, Mk-29 Seasparrows, Harpoons likely to be removed. Not sure about the Phalanx / Mk-15s though.

Potential I believe TNI-AL want to bargain with US on ASROC's, as I sense they are more interested to Asagiri on the ASW capabilities. Something that TNI-AL still lacking with spesialise assets on that. TNI-AL can use Euro/Turkiye SSM, CIWS and SAM rather then US ones.

Also at this moment has to be remind the availability of manning. Crews from those 5 Van Speijks potentially can only available to manned 2 Istiff and 2 Asagiri. I don't think even Japan want to transfer those 4 last Asagiri, all can be taken by TNI-AL.

Manning especially available trained crew is matter. Most of TNI-AL crews are being use with Corvettes and Patrol Vessels. Moving on to Frigate in my opinion need to be further training. Thus most likely any new Frigates will have to take crews from those 5 Van Speijks.

Maybe getting some Oyashio submarines to replace the Type 209/1300 is a better option.

That's the plan, but from what I gather the batch that Indonesia interest are the ones that already upgrade to 'close' to Soryu class standard. Those are part of later batch of Oyashio. Japan don't want to grant them, but export them at market value. The value also include potential upgrade to be 'up to' Soryu even closing in to Taiho standard. Plus reconditioning on the hull, to make it operationable for at least to 2040+. All this will be done at Japan yards, as PAL facilities will be focusing with Scorpene Evo.

So getting Oyashio even second hand will not be cheap, even if Japan provide some 'discount' on that. It still will be with Japanese standard, which we know is outstanding on their SSK, but again come with increase prices. This will not be DSME 209 standard, it can even be on par with new Scorpene Evo.

 

[koxinga]

How about the KD Sri Inderapura, was the Phalanx also removed before transfer to TLDM?

It came with the Phalanx.

 

[koxinga]

Potential I believe TNI-AL want to bargain with US on ASROC's, as I sense they are more interested to Asagiri on the ASW capabilities.

Those Japanese ASROCs are fired from the box launcher / MK-112. Unless Japan supplies the rounds, I don't think the US can supply TNI-AL, so I don't know what is the bargain here. The current ASROCs rounds in USN service are MK-41 VLS launched which are different.

 

[Ananda]

The usage of Mk-112 ASROC box still need US permission though, so does the ASROC eventough it is license build in Japan. US still needed to give permission, although it is older ASROC tech. Yes US already move to VL ASROC,so does Japan. Perhaps Japan will move non VL ASROC to Indonesia and Philippines once Asagiri and Abukuma being transfer. Still it is base on US tech, and I believe US permission still needed.