StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Sounds about right.
Orbit the formation with a P8 at a distance and/or trail them with an ANZAC or Hobart. Close enough to watch what they are doing, but far enough that they cannot claim intimidation.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
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Orbit the formation with a P8 at a distance and/or trail them with an ANZAC or Hobart. Close enough to watch what they are doing, but far enough that they cannot claim intimidation.
Exactly the sort of timid response the CCP will hope for. Next time it'll be a carrier.
They only understand hard power.
I heard just this sort of 'do nothing' mentality within HQ JOC: off ramps etc. I suspect that we have developed a peace time ADF bureaucracy, partly because of the never ending sand wars, that has lost the ability to understand how perilous our strategic situation is.
Two can play at a show of force and this situation, in our Tasman Sea, demands it. Sun Tzu's scribbling probably says something about not abandoning existing positions.
Get some young FCI's to plan a strike and tanker training package and take a stick to the little bastards.
They only understand hard power.
I heard just this sort of 'do nothing' mentality within HQ JOC: off ramps etc. I suspect that we have developed a peace time ADF bureaucracy, partly because of the never ending sand wars, that has lost the ability to understand how perilous our strategic situation is.
Two can play at a show of force and this situation, in our Tasman Sea, demands it. Sun Tzu's scribbling probably says something about not abandoning existing positions.
Get some young FCI's to plan a strike and tanker training package and take a stick to the little bastards.
The Chinese turning up off sydney is interesting.
Clearly they have been funded by a joint op with Newcastle/Wollongong to increase funding of the new submarine base on the east coast. They must be staying equidistant from both Newcastle and Wollongong as part of the deal. All in an election year as well.
Australia is in a different position to Canada or Europe. We have a trade surplus, so tariffs are extra stupid, and the US has best FTA with Australia it actually reduced trade when implemented. Australia benefits from US global security and order, but we aren't dependent like Europe is. We spent a lot of effort after WWII to minimize US presence and control in our region. US has Guam, American Samoa, Hawaii so our context is a bit different. Threats to Australia are the same threats to the US. If the Americans need to be reminded about pearl harbor and why an opposing power might strike at sovereign US locations to minimize the US's ability to get involved, I'm sure that is possible. Sure Darwin was hit by the Japanese, but so was Hawaii.
Clearly they have been funded by a joint op with Newcastle/Wollongong to increase funding of the new submarine base on the east coast. They must be staying equidistant from both Newcastle and Wollongong as part of the deal. All in an election year as well.
I am sure the RAAF are on the phone to the Chinese straight away to organize it, 4th squadron will be incoming.
Australia is in a different position to Canada or Europe. We have a trade surplus, so tariffs are extra stupid, and the US has best FTA with Australia it actually reduced trade when implemented. Australia benefits from US global security and order, but we aren't dependent like Europe is. We spent a lot of effort after WWII to minimize US presence and control in our region. US has Guam, American Samoa, Hawaii so our context is a bit different. Threats to Australia are the same threats to the US. If the Americans need to be reminded about pearl harbor and why an opposing power might strike at sovereign US locations to minimize the US's ability to get involved, I'm sure that is possible. Sure Darwin was hit by the Japanese, but so was Hawaii.
I do really question what the Chinese are trying to achieve by doing this now. I would've thought by now they would've realised that we will not be easily cowed and this isn't going to convince us to not patrol the South China Sea. Do they think that this is going to convince the electorate to elect a pacifist government? If so this is a big misread by them.
At the same time Trump making it clear that the US is potentially a fairweather friend under his leadership and calling for allies to spend more on defence, all this is going to do is push the debate towards a more capable ADF, not less. How is this in China's interests?
What am I missing? Or did they literally just want to go "look we can do it to you too!" because it feels good?
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Hard to say what the actual motive is, the CCP has invested lots of coin in the PLAN so perhaps they want to see them perform. Its a useful training exercise in any event. The message for Australia is what kind of American response will result in the event of more aggressive actions by the PLAN?
Exactly what sort of response would you like? We are not at war with China, and as noted the ships are complying with international law. They are perfectly entitled to do what they are doing. To interfere with them would be a casus belli; and incredibly stupid. And that includes lighting them up with fire control systems.
Watch them, by all means. In fact, we are doing what the western powers did to Soviet ships throughout the Cold War (and continue to do); marking them. That the Chinese are behaving irresponsibly in the South China Sea and Taiwan Strait is irrelevant. We believe in, and stand for, the international rule of law and therefore must uphold it.
Hi buzzard, sorry I've been away for a while and missed your question.
I would suggest that 32 VLS cells and 8 deck launchers is as much as an upgraded Mogami can hold. I will note this ship is already specifically optimised for AAW, ASW and ASuW. It's a very capable defensive ship against air, surface and undersea threats. It would be formidible in this role and would give any hostile ship a run for its money.
That said, the article posted earlier by at lakes shows a Mogami derivitive with a long nose and a 64 VLS package. That would provide for 32 cells for the current defence requirement and 32 cells for strike. The Japanese had obviously thought about it, however I suspect they prefer the larger Kongo-Maya class as you can fit bigger radars and 100 cells, giving about another 30 cells for balistic missile protection in addition to defence and strike capabilities.
In regards to quick and easy options to provide a missile barge. An option would be to load up a platform like ADV Reliant with adaptable deck launchers. It would easily have the capacity to carry 32 cells plus all the associated equipment. There are dozens of these offshore supply ships in Australian waters and they can go anywhere in any sea condition. And they have small crews of around 20 people. Problem is they are slow and would be unlikely to survive any impact.
Unfortunately there isn't much around right now that is low crewed, fast, tough, long ranged and can hold a lot of cargo to be a good strike barge. Anything that can, starts to resemble a frigate pretty quickly. And then you are back to square one.
Austal have obviously been developing some concept hull designs. I think many of the components to make such a vessel are relatively mature. We could invest in some early prototyping. Develop a slim lined, diesel powered hull with long ranged tanks, basic navigation and a cargo space for a VLS and test it. Run it for a few years and then build a new upgraded version. By the time we need to produce them in mass we would have a relatively viable product.
noun
Normally I like your gip mate, so I'll hold off over reacting.
How about the ADF responds like an organisation that is capable of providing a kinetic operation for Australia. Not dithering around wondering about the optics or double guessing what they are thinking? They may be legal but they damn well know that they are expanding the norm. If they don't get a strong response we are not understanding how CCP think.
So no. Not responding with war; or FC radars; or being incredibly stupid. Noting that it would be silly not to send a hard message.
I don't consider an OPSEC aware, FL300, 12 ship wall with tankers, from 1 axis, that turns around at 50nm to be inappropriate in the circumstances. Similar to Q aircraft VID'ing intruders with weapons fitted.
- 1. an act or situation provoking or justifying war.
Normally I like your gip mate, so I'll hold off over reacting.
How about the ADF responds like an organisation that is capable of providing a kinetic operation for Australia. Not dithering around wondering about the optics or double guessing what they are thinking? They may be legal but they damn well know that they are expanding the norm. If they don't get a strong response we are not understanding how CCP think.
So no. Not responding with war; or FC radars; or being incredibly stupid. Noting that it would be silly not to send a hard message.
I don't consider an OPSEC aware, FL300, 12 ship wall with tankers, from 1 axis, that turns around at 50nm to be inappropriate in the circumstances. Similar to Q aircraft VID'ing intruders with weapons fitted.
iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
What about an orbiting P8, 1 or 2 shadowing MFUs within visual range, and 2 pairs of aircraft (F/A-18F with training rounds, and F-35 internally loaded) orbiting with the P8. That should send a strong message to the CCP without being too heavy handed. They only recognise strength. There's no need for 2 squadrons of aircraft like they send towards Taiwan, it just tells them to play by the rules we follow. What they interpret from that is up to them. If they decide to pass through Bass Strait we meet them with assets from FBW.
Edit-The P8 could always drop a couple of sonar buoys at an appropriate distance (not in their immediate vicinity) as a training exercise.
Im guessing they are demonstrating they have capability to project something off Australia's coast. Perhaps, because they have struggled to do that, they think it will make someone or a section of the Australian media fearful. Maybe its not about Australia at all and more of a threat to smaller pacific nations. Maybe they want Australia to look weak in the eyes of other nations.
We just signed a defence deal with PNG. Fiji may be another. I don't think it will gain traction with anyone. Australia's military credibility is well proven, our political resolve is a proven thing, particularly with our neighbors and allies. But maybe these tactics work better else where and we are just getting the standard response.
I dunno, have we had a visit from a major Chinese ship since the Fleet review? Its more of a curiosity. It will certainly stirr up more defense spending and announcements, and basically kill calls to reduce spending. Greens and independents are going to struggle to argue against defense spending when there are literally PLAN ships off the cost of Sydney.
Much like Chinese tariffs and sanctions on Australia. Completely useless and actually had the opposite effect. But these type of pressures have possibly been more effective with smaller more vulnerable nations physically very close to china, with more sensitive economies and political systems. This is really the first time China has fronted up into front of a large modern Anglo country and tried these on.
But China deploying its warships to the coast off FBE is very convenient. Targets are much closer now.
I wouldn't even do that. I would send a police OPV Nemisis out there, and ask them if they are lost or stranded. Then I would release the audio of them asking if they need help with direction or a tow. The CCP don't do funny. We can.
Maybe do Manly ferry tours out there, to see the Chinese ships. Maybe Albo could do the Sea3000 winner announcement from the Manly ferry with the Chinese ships behind him..
I guess it has been done to death but
According to the Australian government this task force IS playing by the rules. Australia is also playing by the rules. The message the Australian government is trying to send is that the PLAN should play by those rules when Australian ships conduct freedom of navigation exercises near China. In effect, the ADF is illustrating the professional behaviour it would like to see demonstrated towards its personnel.
You can respond in a professional manner that doesn't involve pinging, lasing, or throwing around chaff and flares.
If we do not respond in a significant way the CCP will think they can roll us over, in our own Tasman Sea; a place they have not ventured into before. If we do not respond we will look weak and loose face.
If we do not respond in a significant way the CCP will think they can roll us over, in our own Tasman Sea; a place they have not ventured into before. If we do not respond we will look weak and loose face.
iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
I'd like to see the PLAN park a couple of warships within the EEZ off San Francisco. That would be VERY interesting.
iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
GOLD!
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
The RAN shadow could have rendered them full traditional passing honours when joining them, repeating it as ships swap out.
Meanwhile RAAF can have a force generation exercise at Williamtown.
Film the RAN rendering honours and the Chinese response (if any), if they time it well enough the Chinese won’t have time. They can even invite the Chinese captains for dinner if the weather is appropriate.
Film the flight line of Williamstown with the strike assembled (Growler’s, 18F’s and 35A’s). No need to be overt, they don’t even need to leave the ground.
Release edited video’s of both. The message being, you are more than welcome to visit as per international law, but if you misbehave we will put you on the bottom of the ocean.
Meanwhile RAAF can have a force generation exercise at Williamtown.
Film the RAN rendering honours and the Chinese response (if any), if they time it well enough the Chinese won’t have time. They can even invite the Chinese captains for dinner if the weather is appropriate.
Film the flight line of Williamstown with the strike assembled (Growler’s, 18F’s and 35A’s). No need to be overt, they don’t even need to leave the ground.
Release edited video’s of both. The message being, you are more than welcome to visit as per international law, but if you misbehave we will put you on the bottom of the ocean.
There is a time to up the confrontation and a time to be measured in your response.
Our playing grown ups better than them is a strength.
Their perception of losing faith is different to ours and we in the end only need to answer to ourselves.
My submarine suggestion was for quiet observation .
Essentially a good training opportunity.
Yes we should send an aircraft out to keep an eye on what’s happening.
I’d make it something low end even non ADF
They want a response.
Let’s not give them the satisfaction…………..….at this stage!
CCP doing comedy, not ! I do like.
Maybe send out a vessel to sell desirable
Goods
Baby formula appears to be a hit with the PLAN
Any way we’ll watch this realm of Chinese maritime military tourism in the months / years ahead.
Cheers S
Planes warned of hazard in airspace over Chinese warship live fire exercise
Commercial pilots have been warned of a potential hazard in the airspace between Australia and New Zealand, where three Chinese warships are operating.
Interesting..
Flights divert around Chinese live fire exercise off Australia
Pilots have been warned about firing exercises by Chinese warships in the waters between Australia and New Zealand.
There is the statement the Chinese wanted to make. The politicians are right on top of this. We know there are announcements in the pipeline. I hear early march, but as per typical, perhaps recent events have overtaken our schedule.
The only thing that would have drawn more attention is if we had a US dignitary flying in, and the Chinese warned that plane..
I wonder.. Perhaps this is exactly what they are planning to do.
Its no longer a theoretical, maybe they might come around our end of town and start throwing weight around.
Good thing we have used the last 25 years, and significant resource sector boom to fund and build a fleet ready to handle the challenges ahead..... ....
I still think we send the police, and say we thought they were firing flares indicating they were in distress.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Just give Carnival the co-ordinates, if it’s not too far off their route they could go site seeing on the way past?