North Korean Nuclear Agreement

Chrom

New Member
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died under Saddam's regime. Mass graves, torture chambers and rape rooms have been documented. He was convicted and executed for genocide of Iraqis. The current situation is unacceptable, but it's still better than it was.
Use statistic and you find what it was tens of thousands under Saddam regime for 25 years. Unless, of course, you want to include dead in Iran-Iraq war.
Just in 4 years USA presence where are indeed hundreds of thousands dead.
Iraqis are killing Iraqis. The US is trying to stop it. While our military is an outstanding fighting force, we are not an effective police force, especially given the circumstances there.
I already gave you examples about USSR occuping USA. "Americans killing americans!!!" - how it sounds? It is always like that in civil war. But civil war IS CAUSED DIRECTLY BY USA ACTIONS. t
Thats why USA is quilty.

Of course the US is guilty of putting womens underwear on prisoners' heads-a war crimes tribunal should probably be convened.
Tens of thousands iraqis die directly from USA weapons when american soldiers fight back "rebels". Of course, USA soldiers dont want more civil deads. Of course, they do all they can to avoid casualities. But such is nature of the war - civilians DIE. I dont have simple answer what should be done NOW, with all big mess USA caused. Pulling out will not reduce casualities. The main mistake was done 4 years ago, when USA atacked Iraq. We shouldnt let that happend again with other country.
Your reasoning is seriously flawed. If Falstaff were spending hundreds of thousands on wine-that would be his business if he earned the money, unless his family was starving.
Kim also earned his money within his society rules. May be NK society rules are less advanced than USA society rules - but that still dont give right to kill NK peoples. Moreover, in the case of Kim he just recived all the power & money from his parents just as, funny, Bush recived power & money from his parents.
Suggesting that he sell his car and donate the money to African children is as foolish as if he were to suggest that you donate all your blood.
But its YOU suggesting to Kim to dontate all HIS money to poor NK childrens, no?

Comparing Bill Gates to Kim is also lunacy. I'm not a fan of Gates, but he earns his money and he donates billions to charity, including fighting AIDS and starvation in Africa.
He earns his money under flawed western society rules - just as, for example, slave user legitimately earned his money from slave work 300 years ago. Note, slave user itself is not quilty in slavery - he just live in such time and use all means to prosper. But we all know what slavery is BAD. I'm sure, in 200 years everyone will know what current western form of capitalism where some peoples posses billions but
some starving is BAD.
What i mean? Kim lives under different society rules. We should try to change these rules, and NOT try to hurt simple peoples under Kim regime by locking legitimately earned NK moneys.
Kim has co-opted the NK treasury and lives like a king while the NK people starve.
GB Queen "co-opted the GB treasury and lives like a king while the GB people starve". Make about as much sence. There is no doubt what Queen recive money from goverment. There is not doubt some peoples in GB starve or overwise lack money to survive (medical care, etc). Where is no doubt Bush alone spend 100 times on his luxury item than Kim, not to tell about other USA magnates. And what?
Just understand it - NK have DIFFERENT society. In that society goods are distributed not throught owned property like Wallmart, Ford or Microsoft - but throught peoples place in NK govement hiearchy. Both approaches can work better or worse. For example, many African/ Latain Amercan countries are poor and starve despite being fully capitalistic.

You insist on blaming the US and believing that sanctions are responsible for NK's starving. As pointed out by Grand Danois, there are no meaningful sanctions on NK and in particular there are no sanctions food.
Partially, sanction are responsible. It is not only direct deny of selling/buying same goods, but also agressive sanctions against own and foreign companies what want to do business with NK.
Kim's corruption and mismanagement are to blame.
For the most part yes. Still, i see no point making NK peoples lives worse.
With so little to live for, it's surprising that the people of NK haven't revolted against the little dic tator.
Believe me, in 200 years peoples will wonder same thing about current USA regime and current West Europe regime. While currently they have best form of society around - it is still not flawless.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
How can you call it better when there bombs blowing up everyday in the middle of the road? And how can you call it better when two communities used to dislike each other now turned on to each other? It is true that US is trying to stop it, some how we do not see any improvement.

Sorry to question your comments like that. But it is clear that we both lack evidence on this issue.



You are perfectly right. But I believe sanctions only make the problem worse. Economic ties can change the system while isolation can only firm the power of dictator . Remember what makes USSR fall? I mean sanctions do not help KIM from get his wine or help his people getting feed. Even having an invasion is better than sanctions.
The reason why you do not see any improvement is because we are a Western nation trying to spread our version of democracy into the Middle East and that cannot be done, history has shown that. All the Middle East countries over there will do everything in there power to get us out and they will not stop until they reach that goal.
 

ever4244

New Member
How can you call it better when there bombs blowing up everyday in the middle of the road? And how can you call it better when two communities used to dislike each other now turned on to each other? It is true that US is trying to stop it, some how we do not see any improvement.

Sorry to question your comments like that. But it is clear that we both lack evidence on this issue.



You are perfectly right. But I believe sanctions only make the problem worse. Economic ties can change the system while isolation can only firm the power of dictator . Remember what makes USSR fall? I mean sanctions do not help KIM from get his wine or help his people getting feed. Even having an invasion is better than sanctions.
I fully agree with this part
 

ever4244

New Member
I will agree with that interpretation. However, you should remember what there are many forms of democracy. "Liberal" USA democracy. "Socialist" european democracy. Communist democracy. And so on. You shouldnt mix "democracy" as form of goverement with "capitalism" as form of prefered property.
P.S. Certainly, USSR was not a democracy, at least not after later 20x when communists leaders like Stalin took all the power and changed laws.
That s bring up me some thoughts.
communism from the beginning to the end has last for hundreds year from the thoey to practice and hundreds of thousands of people has given their life to this course , you can call it a communist zeal or what ever . However, there must be a reason in it if you think carefully over it.

and If you looks deeper, the basic conflicts reviewed by Maxs has not been neutralize, they just been transport from the developed country to the developing country factitiously. So to speak, the thriving of developed country and social harmony in some extant was on the expense of extracting the remaining value produced by developing country worker in their hut . Therefore If we really want a more harmonic world, maybe a simple capitalism method including economy ,political and military are not capable . Like Globalization and NATO Military operation can actually cause lots of pain even if their intention is somehow "nobler" respectively .



So much to say but not proper here, just some gossip
 

Chrom

New Member
That s bring up me some thoughts.
communism from the beginning to the end has last for hundreds year from the thoey to practice and hundreds of thousands of people has given their life to this course , you can call it a communist zeal or what ever . However, there must be a reason in it if you think carefully over it.

and If you looks deeper, the basic conflicts reviewed by Maxs has not been neutralize, they just been transport from the developed country to the developing country factitiously. So to speak, the thriving of developed country and social harmony in some extant was on the expense of extracting the remaining value produced by developing country worker in their hut . Therefore If we really want a more harmonic world, maybe a simple capitalism method including economy ,political and military are not capable . Like Globalization and NATO Military operation can actually cause lots of pain even if their intention is somehow "nobler" respectively .



So much to say but not proper here, just some gossip
I will agree with anyone who thinks what there MIGHT be better form of society than current USA/European society. What form - mutated communism, mutated socialism, mutated capitalism or something we cant even imagine yet - we dont know, and this can cause interesting discussion. I'm just strongly opposed to "dogmatic" western democracy apologets, who thinks what current USA democracy is best form of society ever, almost always do right things and require only cosmetic improvment.
 

Scott

Photographer/Contributor
Verified Defense Pro
Could we get back on point please. This has deteriorated into primarily a political discussion and I've been guilty too.
 

Mouse

New Member
Actually I found it quite amusing.
Five Strong Adults held club in the one hand, some candies in the other, told the kid not to spit, if he stops spitting, they will give him candies. The kid kept spitting and also getting more and more candies......
Well, Smart kid. What will he look like when he get the club and candies?
 

ever4244

New Member
What role NK s mig 31 can play in the war? Sometimes I wonder why NK want to buy a high speed intercepter with so limited domain of the peninsula.
 

Chrom

New Member
What role NK s mig 31 can play in the war? Sometimes I wonder why NK want to buy a high speed intercepter with so limited domain of the peninsula.
Joke? NK will never buy such thing, allthought i can see why they would want to recive them as gift. Mig-31 cant play any role in the war, basically no fighter can play any role for NK. Only strike aircrafts can be used with any degree of success in surprise attack.

P.S. Mig-31 can be used in peace time to deny USA recon flights.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Joke? NK will never buy such thing, allthought i can see why they would want to recive them as gift. Mig-31 cant play any role in the war, basically no fighter can play any role for NK. Only strike aircrafts can be used with any degree of success in surprise attack.

P.S. Mig-31 can be used in peace time to deny USA recon flights.
Nope - we will let our space eyes do all the looking, Russia wouldn`t give them to Uncle Kim due to pissin off the ROK.
 

ever4244

New Member
At first I run into an article in on a chinese military forum about the purchase of mig-31 by NK, then I found it originally comes from japanese media.
further information I failed to come across, maybe the japanese just too overreacted
Official spokesman for the Russian Foreign Ministry Alexander Yakovenko has refuted the report of the Japanese mass media that the DPRK allegedly possesses nuclear weapons, secretly brought from the Soviet Union, as well as MiG-31 fighters, purchased in Russia, and five tons of chemical weapons.
However, do you think mig-31 armed with R-27 has a chance to penetrate the defence in a suicide mission to down E-3
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
At first I run into an article in on a chinese military forum about the purchase of mig-31 by NK, then I found it originally comes from japanese media.
further information I failed to come across, maybe the japanese just too overreacted

However, do you think mig-31 armed with R-27 has a chance to penetrate the defence in a suicide mission to down E-3
North Korea dose not have and Mig-31 or SU-27, but they do have 40 Mig-29 Fulcrum fighters.

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