Simply well said.There was a big fallout post WW2 because UK (and the French) was denied the knowledge from the Manhattan project. There was no sharing.
And actively cooperating with NK. Question: you see a number of states going nuclear. Who? And who helped them?
It was important to them. And if it wasn't for the nuclear umbrella, they would have. And there are also the countries that weren't part of the Axis.
You mean like India? Israel? UK? France? China? Etc.? Pakistan? USSR?
There's no history to prove it.
The operational concept is as always "credible deterence". Second thing is that the US has a deterrence of its own. And that is a credible deterrence against nuclear use against them.
Recognition of the nation-state, because it is convenient. Sovereignty exists because others recognise it, not because it is some divine right given from above.
The regime has no legitimacy in the eyes of other states as long at it behaves like a common thug. Recognition of the right to selfdefence applies to other. Has Japan declared war over the abduction of its civilians on its own soil? This could be rightfully be considered and act of war. Did NK repect any sovereignty? Firing missiles over Japan?
ow about NK counterfeiting US notes. This could also be considered an act of war. NK subs in SK waters? An act of war, disrepecting sovereignty.
And this happened without NK having any nukes. And no military response...
No. NK is being ignored into oblivion, and they know it. That's why they're making so much noise.
The people(s) of Korea should decide - yes. I haven't argued regime change. It a strawman you have made.
Continuation of strawman. Note: it is the firepower that NK has that makes it necessary to talk to it - not it benevolent gifts to this world. It is the noises it makes.
Yes, and most don't give a damn or have special interests like China or SK/Japan.
NK is technically at war with the UN.
Actually the US has been playing NK down the past years. Also, the US is practically reducing its presence every year.
The US is just an excuse for bad behaviour, just like so many other countries use the US as an excuse for bad behaviour.
Btw, would you like to have the NK agents loose in Russia abducting and killing your citizens, counterfeiting Rubles, firing ballistic missiles over your heads? Exporting NK govt produced narcotics into Russia?
North Korean Nuclear Agreement
- Thread starter Ozzy Blizzard
- Start date
radiosilence
jints
India made the bomb with plutonium extracted from spent reactor fuel. Canada supplied the reactor and the United States provided the heavy water needed to run the reactor. India had promised to use the reactor and the heavy water for peaceful purposes only.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
And the machinery and technology to produce triggers and tolerances came from whom?
radiosilence
jints
My point was they had outside help hence they didn't developed their own on their own as you claim. Also, i wouldn't be surprised if those triggers and related technology wasn't imported from Europe or the US illegally. They are getting and seeking outside help for their missle program.
Two Indians charged with exporting missile technology
http://wpherald.com/articles/4063/1/Two-Indians-charged-with-exporting-missile-technology/Indictments-threaten-nuclear-deal.html
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
Actually I don't know if the rest of the stuff was supplied from the outside like the US/Canada or was homegrown.
Seems to me the intent was not to proliferate weapons.
There was no official transfer, but some unofficial. Besides, now half UK nuclear weapon is US-produced.
They will get needed equipment and knowledge from Europe/USA/Russia. Just as in case of Iran/Pakistan/India/ etc. Besides, building A-Bomb is no problem with current consumer technology, the only problem is obtaining uran/plutonium and enrichten it. You'll need good insudstry to achieve that, but again nothing un-doable.
Sure, it was important. But you know, they was NOT free in they politic. Did you forget US bases in Germany? Did you forget laws what prohibitet military building in both Japan and Germany? Do you think they accepted these restriction on they own? It was IMPOSSIBLE for them to have any nuclear weapon, no matter how much they wanted it. Well, of course if they didnt want another war with US on that matter.
All of them.
hmm, i already gave examples what all prolifiration sources take roots in major superpowers. You dont need rogue states for that.
Ha-ha. I dont know, may be you are from Australia. But i'm quite sure a New-York guy will think twice about supporting goverment what say something like "We bring democracy to NK. We are sure NK could nuke only NY and Los-Angeles at max - no biggie, we will revenge!" How it sounds? Are you sure what Kim, seeing the fate of Saddam and Miloshevich, will NOT use his A-Bomb against US?The operational concept is as always "credible deterence". Second thing is that the US has a deterrence of its own. And that is a credible deterrence against nuclear use against them.
Nope. WRONG. Souvergnity exist becouse you can defend it by all means - political, military, etc. Besides, everyone, even US acknowledge NK souvereignity. You cant have it half-way - either NK is in UN and then have all souvereign rights, or it is not.
Sadly for you, only western medias dont recognize the legitimacy of NK regime. As i said, there are other countries on the globe besides US. They ARE recognize the legitimacy of NK. Hmm, and lets not bring minor incedents here. Should i remind you what US DAYLY violate foreign airspaces with military assets? Recon flights, etc... Should i remind you about US special forces assasinating Latin America leaders?
Sure. But would you also consider US sub in foreign water an act of war? Yes? Then who is agressor here? Would you consider US recon flight over NK territory as act of war? Yes/No? Please no double standards here.
Yup. All that happens WHILE NK dont have nukes and cant defent its territory. Once it got nukes and proper SAM's i'm sure all these incedents will go away.
I'm very sure it is NK dream to be ignored. Kim live good enouth as is, he dont need more attention.
You said it. The peoples of Korea, and not US goverment. Let the peoples decide. WITHOUT foreign military intervention. Also, we saw on the example of Palestina how respectfull are "democratic" countries to democratic elected leaders...
I repeat - dont mix western medias with NK leaders. NK DONT make any noise. All the noise goes from your own counry medias.
Nope, it is not. Only SK and NK are technically at war. NK is full member of UN, that alone should prove it is fully recognized by the rest of the world.Yes, and most don't give a damn or have special interests like China or SK/Japan.
NK is technically at war with the UN.
Man, US making BIG noise about NK. I cant see how its called "down played".
Again, what bad behavior? Building A-bomb is surery not one. Also, as i remember, NK was more than happy to abandon its nuclear program back in mid 90x in exchange for economical help. Ask yourself, WHY the hell US broke that agreement? If US is so concerned about NK nuclear program?
All i see now is what NK dont do anything above, but many other friendly to US countries do this all the time. Hell, US do it all the time itself. "Abducting and killing your citizens" - Guantanamo - check. Firing ballistic missiles over your heads - not only missiles - check. Exporting NK govt produced narcotics - just propaganda against NK, and we know what 90% worlds narcotics are produced in US conrtolled states - Columbia and Afganistan. Particulary in Afganistan the narcotics production increased 5 TIMES after US invasion. Coincendence, no? Should i remind mid 80x scandal when CIA was financing they dirty operations with narcotics? The peoples catched back then doing it/knowing it are still the rulers in CIA now... Do you think much changed since then?
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Many will prefer NK to US .NK fire missle over your head while US fire missle on your head.Everybody just cry about how many thousands US soldier down in Iraq, but heaven knows how many hundred -thousands Iraq civillion dead because of invasion.
Nevertheless any country in the position of US( no matter russia or china) will not be peace-loving because he needs to maintain the world order which is currently much beneficial to that super-power.
Very unfair to say NK violent international law ,for US violent most(U2, submarine ,CIA agent (many times try to kidnap Al-quida suspect out of his country without consult to his goverment)
------- and then followed by russia and china, However world ignore them for no country want to bring a hornets' nest about his's ears-------especially those super-hornet on US carrier.
About the validity of NK regime , don t forget eastern world view sovereign right holier than individual right. and if force other country accept the value of western by brutal way like iraq war , the 911 will happen time and time again.
Personally I could not hold my distaste for kim ,who has ruined NK, but it s neither China s place nor US s to decide the fortune of NK.and NK has the right to be independent instead of being influenced by China, Russia or US. for he is not the Axis like japan.
One thing I could not agree with Chrom is NK is deliberately draw attention from the world. Because NK s tactic is try some big-bang to upset US, and then threat to use it on poor japan.slam US on his face to lure him in and eventually draw US to the table and finnaly reach a agreement suit NK s interest.
So we can see NK get nuclear-reactor and oil by selling his right to develop nuclear weapon. The more attention NK draw, the more tasty the profit would be. and they are actually in urgent need of such resources.----------in most of cases US give shit to those peace-loving country in severe poverty, so NK invent such amusing way to collect whip-round from the richest country in world.
Nevertheless any country in the position of US( no matter russia or china) will not be peace-loving because he needs to maintain the world order which is currently much beneficial to that super-power.
Very unfair to say NK violent international law ,for US violent most(U2, submarine ,CIA agent (many times try to kidnap Al-quida suspect out of his country without consult to his goverment)
------- and then followed by russia and china, However world ignore them for no country want to bring a hornets' nest about his's ears-------especially those super-hornet on US carrier.
About the validity of NK regime , don t forget eastern world view sovereign right holier than individual right. and if force other country accept the value of western by brutal way like iraq war , the 911 will happen time and time again.
Personally I could not hold my distaste for kim ,who has ruined NK, but it s neither China s place nor US s to decide the fortune of NK.and NK has the right to be independent instead of being influenced by China, Russia or US. for he is not the Axis like japan.
One thing I could not agree with Chrom is NK is deliberately draw attention from the world. Because NK s tactic is try some big-bang to upset US, and then threat to use it on poor japan.slam US on his face to lure him in and eventually draw US to the table and finnaly reach a agreement suit NK s interest.
So we can see NK get nuclear-reactor and oil by selling his right to develop nuclear weapon. The more attention NK draw, the more tasty the profit would be. and they are actually in urgent need of such resources.----------in most of cases US give shit to those peace-loving country in severe poverty, so NK invent such amusing way to collect whip-round from the richest country in world.
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Agree.
I dont think so. The NK economic losses from sanctions are WAY bigger than any economical "help" they hope to get from USA. Moreover, resources spend on nuclear & missile program (and on military overall) ruine NK economic. No foreign help can ever compensate 8-years conscript military service. So, i dont believe in any "gain economical help" reasons behind NK A-Bomb development.
If you had access to independent media, you would not be such a propaganda victim. How can anyone even try to defend such a bizarre joke of history.
We in the West have been fighting civil and other wars for 2000 years now to learn that the sovereignty of a people must not be confused with the sovereignty of a regime. That's what you're doing. I truely hope you'll get there some day.
One is not opposite of the other. Funny thing, east fight these wars even longer. In fact, China's society was much more advanced & democratic 1000 years ago than any western country.
Western propaganda quite oft excuse wars by declared them "bring the democracy". And then kill 100 times more civilians then any dictator would ever can. I dont believe what threating NK will do any good to NK peoples in the long run - it would be MUCH better to cooperate with NK regime and force it to slowely reform - just as in case of Saidi Arabia , Emirates, or Chile for example. Even now accepted European democraties - Spain and Italia - only 30 years ago could be described almost as dictatore. But it would be wrong, very wrong to carry military operation against them back then.
Now you're making me laugh, really. You're talking about the Song-dynasty. Democratic? Advanced society? "Rigid" would be the right term. If you call dogmatic confucianism advanced, so be it.
That's so b***, I can't believe it. I know some dictators who are unrivalled in terms of killing civilians. And BTW, who is killing civilians in Iraq these days? Do you read the news?
Oh yes, cooperating. It's been done before, it's called appeasement and was not very successful.
And I'm pretty sure you are confusing Greece and Italy.
Finally I have a question for you: Who do you think will benefit from the money that's been unblocked? The people that eat grass? Those who starve every day while Porn Kim buys wine for 100.000s of $?
I have a suggestion for you: Stick to your Russian "Wunder"weapos, this here obviously isn't your range at all.
And stop messing with GrandDanois, will you, he knows about things and you just don't compare.
Is was much, much more advanced than middle-century european monarchy.
There is civil war in Iraq right now, and that civil war is DIRECTYLY CAUSED by USA actions. USA troops also kill a fair share of iraqis - but of course less than die in civil war.
An imaginary example for you: imagine USSR by some means conquer USA. The resistance arise. Some americans attack USSR soldiers and get killed. Much more americans attack USSR collaborates (also american citizens, btw) and kill them / get killed. Who is quilty here? Americans? Becouse they defend they country and shot "traitors"? "Traitors" - becouse they trully believe comminist goverement is better for America? Or other traitors - who simply want better live and dont care who rule?
Who will be quilty in millions deaths in this case? Answer the question, and you'll see who is quilty in hundreds of thousands dead peoples in Iraq.
Nope, Italy was ruled first by dictators till 70x, then by mafia till 80x. Btw, its USA army installed fascist-like goverment in Italia after WW2. Communist party was about to win election in Italy by then, USA army prevened it. But if you want talk about Greece than remeber 1947-1949 period when USA army also intervented Greecy for the very same reason and opressed local communists parties. It was no better than USSR-Chehoslovakia 1968
Most of them starve EXACTLY becouse of sanctions. Mind you, most likely 10 times more die if you attack NK. Besides, you should choose either one or the other - either NK want attention to improve its economical (and political) situation or NK leaders only care for own wealth - but then they dont need any attention or economical help. They have it all already.
P.S. It is cheap propaganda "someone buy wine for 10000$ then other starve!". By that argument you should immedeatly sell your car and give all money to poor african childrens. Hell, even in USA there are plenty of peoples die becouse they are too poor to get proper medical care. Lets grab Bill Gates money?
OMG, please, no double standards here. I tired of that attitude "Anything what is good for America is good for the world".
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May we all agree that democracy is the broadway of the society, yet we can't just force democracy to those who never know what it is! Remind me the scene in the movie the Lawrence of the Arab when Lawrence give the Arabs Damascus, but Arab failed to take care of it.
And it maybe true that most of us cherish the idea of democracy, how many of us do really understand the idea of democracy? If nine man votes that four of them shall die, four man of course disagree. Shall four man die? And is this democracy?
My point is let NK be, a regime so barbarian as this will either change to survive or fall from within. Disagree with the regime does not necessarily mean to starve its people. NK people had never tasted the democracy, we can give them democracy with our force, we can't make them accept it. Just take a look at Iraq.
And it maybe true that most of us cherish the idea of democracy, how many of us do really understand the idea of democracy? If nine man votes that four of them shall die, four man of course disagree. Shall four man die? And is this democracy?
My point is let NK be, a regime so barbarian as this will either change to survive or fall from within. Disagree with the regime does not necessarily mean to starve its people. NK people had never tasted the democracy, we can give them democracy with our force, we can't make them accept it. Just take a look at Iraq.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Yes. Democracy has to be built into a culture. It can't be forced. The people has to consider themselves as citizens in a democratic state and behave accordingly.
This highlights what I said above. Democracy is not just elections. It is checks and balances on how power can be used. And this rests in the perceptions and world views that the people, and the representatives that power has been vested in, have.
NK is being left alone. That is why NK is in trouble and why it makes so much noise.
NK is not being starved by the outside world. Here is why:
If you conscript everybody for 8 years (used to be 10, IIRC) then you're bound to get into trouble, as you will have drafted a huge group of your population, and also the most productive part of it, into something the produces army units, i.e they produce war or defence.
On top of that, being independent on everything is hugely important in NK philosophy. This means that it also has a huge military industrial complex to support. On top of that, due to this philosophy, it cannot achieve an efficient economy in that complex as it cannot exchange economically with the outside world.
So there is little left for the items that make up for the basic functions of a country, like food production (and health care, education, administration, etc). The backbone of the civil society crumbles.
The planning and economic philosophy is also inefficient.
This has the impact that when natural disasters occur or the crop fails, the country has little resistance and cannot cope.
A young man getting pneumonia has little problems getting over it. And old man with a deterioated health dies from it. NK is an old man.
Now, the UN, SK and PRC (and US?) have sent huge amounts of food, feeding millions of people for years, yet millions still died.
There are no sanctions of meaning on NK. Not food. Not medical supplies. Not arms.
The problem NK has, is that the only thing they produce is: arms.
NK has made an economic basketcase of themselves with their paranoia, philosophy of independence, and power struggles.
So, the North Koreans are not being starved by sanctions from the outside world. They have been helped by the outside world through some very rough times.
The ruling regime is causing the starvation.
"Kim Il-sung outlined the three fundamental principles of Juche in his April 14, 1965, speech “On Socialist Construction and the South Korean Revolution in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea”. The principles are "independence in politics" (chaju), "self-sustenance in the economy" (charip) and "self-defense in national defence" (chawi)."
Juche
Cheers
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Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died under Saddam's regime. Mass graves, torture chambers and rape rooms have been documented. He was convicted and executed for genocide of Iraqis. The current situation is unacceptable, but it's still better than it was.
Iraqis are killing Iraqis. The US is trying to stop it. While our military is an outstanding fighting force, we are not an effective police force, especially given the circumstances there.
Of course the US is guilty of putting womens underwear on prisoners' heads-a war crimes tribunal should probably be convened.
Your reasoning is seriously flawed. If Falstaff were spending hundreds of thousands on wine-that would be his business if he earned the money, unless his family was starving.
Suggesting that he sell his car and donate the money to African children is as foolish as if he were to suggest that you donate all your blood.
Comparing Bill Gates to Kim is also lunacy. I'm not a fan of Gates, but he earns his money and he donates billions to charity, including fighting AIDS and starvation in Africa.
Kim has co-opted the NK treasury and lives like a king while the NK people starve.
You insist on blaming the US and believing that sanctions are responsible for NK's starving. As pointed out by Grand Danois, there are no meaningful sanctions on NK and in particular there are no sanctions food.
Kim's corruption and mismanagement are to blame.
With so little to live for, it's surprising that the people of NK haven't revolted against the little dic tator.
How can you call it better when there bombs blowing up everyday in the middle of the road? And how can you call it better when two communities used to dislike each other now turned on to each other? It is true that US is trying to stop it, some how we do not see any improvement.
Sorry to question your comments like that. But it is clear that we both lack evidence on this issue.
You are perfectly right. But I believe sanctions only make the problem worse. Economic ties can change the system while isolation can only firm the power of dictator . Remember what makes USSR fall? I mean sanctions do not help KIM from get his wine or help his people getting feed. Even having an invasion is better than sanctions.
I will agree with that interpretation. However, you should remember what there are many forms of democracy. "Liberal" USA democracy. "Socialist" european democracy. Communist democracy. And so on. You shouldnt mix "democracy" as form of goverement with "capitalism" as form of prefered property.
P.S. Certainly, USSR was not a democracy, at least not after later 20x when communists leaders like Stalin took all the power and changed laws.