Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[icelord]

Id like to see the whole Army be able to transport itself, much as I used to enjoy 40km forced marches in 49 degree celcius temperatures with a 50 kg of crap on my back and all the rest I just might have found it within myself somehow to accept a lift in an airconditioned mine proof bullet proof battle bus which would also get there in one thirtieth of the time, or be in 30 times as many places in the same time but this would clearly be insanity because we are a light infantry army and like to walk.

Australia is rather large and how we havent motorised sooner amazes me, perhaps it was because of the airmobile concept prevelent in the 60s/70s?

Anyway we are getting more Bushmasters but not enough for everyone, id like to see the whole Army inclueding reserves have at least Bushmasters..

Perhaps if the descision on an AFV were made sooner rather than later and the mech elements were armed with CV9035s or Pumas or something the hand me down vehicles could go to reserves and other batts however this wont mean more Bushmasters which I think would be wise investment as they are proving very very usefull here and overseas, the dutch even bought some.

I thought that the reserves were getting the bushmasters after the ARA recieved all theres, whether they get them before or after Adelaide Battalions recieve theirs is another thing, even though they are still 2-3 years from being battle ready we have had to push the construction line back a bit with the dutch recieving several allocated ARA Vehicles.

The biggest problem with 120 LeoIIs is the fact we don't have enough crews for that many, as well as mechanics, transporters and so on. If the ADF wasn't in a recruiting slump then we might have opted for them, but for the price and armour, M1A1 was best on offer. although it would'nt have hurt to have come under budget with the same number as Abrahms but we can't have under budgetting to often otherwise it would be expected

Something out of left field for the IFV would be the Spanish ASCOD or Pizarro.
The Thais have 15 incoming Light Tank Versions, which is perhaps a big advantage to all those Critics of the M1A1 who claim its use in the pacific would be limited. Its multi-purposes would be much like the ASLAV family in that it too can offer the following:

As well as the infantry fighting vehicle, the ASCOD family includes: LT 105 light tank, anti-aircraft missile carrier, anti-aircraft gun system, anti-tank guided missile carrier, mortar carrier, repair and recovery vehicle, logistics carrier, command and communication carrier, artillery observation post and ambulance.

there is a wealth of IFV platforms really that could be argued, perhaps thats why the ADF won't request a tender, don't want to confuse DMO

 

[Aussie Digger]

I thought that the reserves were getting the bushmasters after the ARA recieved all theres, whether they get them before or after Adelaide Battalions recieve theirs is another thing, even though they are still 2-3 years from being battle ready we have had to push the construction line back a bit with the dutch recieving several allocated ARA Vehicles.

The biggest problem with 120 LeoIIs is the fact we don't have enough crews for that many, as well as mechanics, transporters and so on. If the ADF wasn't in a recruiting slump then we might have opted for them, but for the price and armour, M1A1 was best on offer. although it would'nt have hurt to have come under budget with the same number as Abrahms but we can't have under budgetting to often otherwise it would be expected

Something out of left field for the IFV would be the Spanish ASCOD or Pizarro.
The Thais have 15 incoming Light Tank Versions, which is perhaps a big advantage to all those Critics of the M1A1 who claim its use in the pacific would be limited. Its multi-purposes would be much like the ASLAV family in that it too can offer the following:

As well as the infantry fighting vehicle, the ASCOD family includes: LT 105 light tank, anti-aircraft missile carrier, anti-aircraft gun system, anti-tank guided missile carrier, mortar carrier, repair and recovery vehicle, logistics carrier, command and communication carrier, artillery observation post and ambulance.

there is a wealth of IFV platforms really that could be argued, perhaps thats why the ADF won't request a tender, don't want to confuse DMO

True, there's plenty of IFV designs out there that would appear on the surface as to be suitable for Army AND are Kinnaird compliant. Why they are so deadset against ordering one though is beyond me. I sure they could have got enough to equip 1 Brigade and School of Armour etc for $500m (the M113 upgrade project budget). "Jobs for the boys" seems most likely to me...

Anyhow, the reserves are not getting Bushmaster except for a single Squadron of the New South Wales, Hunter River Lancers. This Squadron supports School of Infantry exercises and also happens to be located in the Parliamentary Secretary for Defence's personal electorate, not that THIS would have anything to do with a reserve unit getting frontline equipment of course...

 

[icelord]

This Squadron supports School of Infantry exercises and also happens to be located in the Parliamentary Secretary for Defence's personal electorate, not that THIS would have anything to do with a reserve unit getting frontline equipment of course

Lancers are also in Rutherford, in Maitland. Though this is the Opposition Defence spokesmans electorate and might show him up a bit.

Would the ADF perhaps be waiting to see how the Upgraded M113 goes? If it fails then obviously a replacement will be immediatly needed, and hopefully can be rushed through a bit, if it succeeds, maybe we'll all shut up and just hope that an extra requirment may be asked for. put $$ on the first one though.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Lancers are also in Rutherford, in Maitland. Though this is the Opposition Defence spokesmans electorate and might show him up a bit.

Except, the whole Regiment aren't equipped with Bushmasters, only the Sqn based in the Parliamentary Sec's electorate...

 

[icelord]

unsure, i'll try to get hold of a lancer i know and see what hes heard. Would seem odd, although security at the small post is an issue, mid last year couple of kids broke in and stole couple of grands worth of gear from M113 sitting in the yard(who knows why) so do hope they've learnt to lock away their toys.

 

[Waylander]

In my eyes you just cannot upgrade the M113s to a level were they can compete with the new IFVs out there.

I think there are two options for an IFV. One would be a tracked one. There CV90, Puma, Ulan or Bionix come to my mind. I am not sure about the US being able to sell surplus Bradleys. Looks like the Brads are in heavy use in Iraq and are worn out fast.
All of the IFVs I mentioned are able to work together well with the Abrams.

I you want to stay with a wheeled vehicle the Piranha IV would be the most logical choice. It offers commonality with the LAVs you are operating and is a very modern and capable wheeled IFV with many possible equipment options.

 

[Smythstar]

Looks like the M113 program is going down the same road as the seasprite program, I just cant belive how the govt tollerates these constant stuffups and over costs from ADI and Tenix, surely the govt could arrest the entire board and try them for sedition?
Haha no but seriously its a worry and no one could blame a future minister buying a system off the shelf made lock stock and barrel overseas, it would also work out cheaper so less money or more systems for the same money.

I think the M113s have had their day and certainly cant be employed credibly as any sort of AFV maybee rear echelon or battle taxi duties in soft terrain the Bushies or lavs cant handle.
Whats done is done, I think they should can it before it gets worse, get the lawers out and penelise the company severly, defense contracting is starting to closely resemble the blatent pork barreling the occures in the US, perhaps with several leading contractor figures and their mouthpieces need to spend some time in the clink and think about if their extra millions in profits for their company is worth 20 years of their life in a prison!
Im sure from that point onwards we would have little problem with domestic contractors however I think local industry well several companies have proven themselves unworthy of any furtherr involvement and purchases should perhaps instead be purchased direct from OS despite the knock to local industry.
Bring on Land 400 then we can smelt the old girls down into window frames and put them out of their missory.

 

[Tasman]

More Oz troops for Afghanistan

The Australian Prime Minister today announced an increase in Australia's commitment to Afghanistan, including a two year deployment of a 300 strong Special Operations Task Group.

By mid 2008 the Australian commitment is expected to reach 1000 personnel.

http://pm.gov.au/media/Release/2007/Media_Release24241.cfm

It seems to me that the Australian Army's special forces (SAS Regiment and 4 Commando) are going to continue to be stretched to the limit.

Cheers

 

[Todjaeger]

The Australian Prime Minister today announced an increase in Australia's commitment to Afghanistan, including a two year deployment of a 300 strong Special Operations Task Group.

By mid 2008 the Australian commitment is expected to reach 1000 personnel.

http://pm.gov.au/media/Release/2007/Media_Release24241.cfm

It seems to me that the Australian Army's special forces (SAS Regiment and 4 Commando) are going to continue to be stretched to the limit.

Cheers

Is there any word on 1 CDO Regt being deployed, or subunits being included? Or for that matter, on active duty while the SASR and 4 RAR have so many deployed? How about the IRR, and TAG & TAG-East? I would assume at least enough troops are kept in Australia to maintain those commitments. Still, it is worrisome that so many specops are deployed. Is there any sort of agreement between Australia & NZ, where Australia could "borrow" NZSAS personnel in an emergency? Or for that matter, Australia "loaning" some to NZ, since IIRC some NZSAS have been, or currently are, deployed in Afghanistan as well.

-Cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

Is there any word on 1 CDO Regt being deployed, or subunits being included? Or for that matter, on active duty while the SASR and 4 RAR have so many deployed? How about the IRR, and TAG & TAG-East? I would assume at least enough troops are kept in Australia to maintain those commitments. Still, it is worrisome that so many specops are deployed. Is there any sort of agreement between Australia & NZ, where Australia could "borrow" NZSAS personnel in an emergency? Or for that matter, Australia "loaning" some to NZ, since IIRC some NZSAS have been, or currently are, deployed in Afghanistan as well.

-Cheers

1 Cmdo won't deploy as a unit, or even as a sub unit. Appropriately qualified personnel may fill out the taskforce, but the role of reserves nowadays (even 1 Cmdo) is to flesh out regular units.

Personnel assigned to TAG-E/W do not deploy on these operations. They are needed in Australia, in case of "terrorist attack".

This deployment will mostly comprise 4RAR operators I'd imagine. With 4RAR maintaining 3x Cmdo companies plus TAG-East and it's support units, it can easily deploy a Company or "company plus" now that it's been reconstituted after it's previous deployment.

SASR would probably deploy a Sqn level formation as well and the rest will be Sigs, logistics, medical personnel, plus the RAAF radar detachment (TPS-77 anyone?) and another Chinook Deployment after the fleet is reconstituted and the remaining Chinooks upgraded...

 

[Tasman]

Is there any word on 1 CDO Regt being deployed, or subunits being included? Or for that matter, on active duty while the SASR and 4 RAR have so many deployed? How about the IRR, and TAG & TAG-East? I would assume at least enough troops are kept in Australia to maintain those commitments. Still, it is worrisome that so many specops are deployed. Is there any sort of agreement between Australia & NZ, where Australia could "borrow" NZSAS personnel in an emergency? Or for that matter, Australia "loaning" some to NZ, since IIRC some NZSAS have been, or currently are, deployed in Afghanistan as well.

-Cheers

Info on tonight's ABC news was that units for the first deployment will be from 4 Commando and the SAS. I think it will be difficult to maintain the commitment at this level for 2 years so maybe the reserves of 1 Commando, or at least individuals or units from this regiment, will be considered for follow on deployments at some stage.

AD?

Cheers

Edit:

AD has answered my 'maybe' in his post!

 

[Tasman]

1 Cmdo won't deploy as a unit, or even as a sub unit. Appropriately qualified personnel may fill out the taskforce, but the role of reserves nowadays (even 1 Cmdo) is to flesh out regular units.

I wonder if cracks are starting to appear in this policy.

In what has been described by the Defence Minister as "the largest independent deployment of NSW-based Reservists since World War" a reserve company, fleshed out with a few regulars, has just deployed to the Solomons.

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/NelsonMintpl.cfm?CurrentId=6521

Admittedly this area of operations is probably not as dangerous as Afghanistan, but it will be no picnic either. This does demonstrate, IMO, that the Regular Army is overstretched for the missions it has been tasked to perform. Let's hope that recruitment efforts to meet the new personnel targets that have been established are successful.

Cheers

 

[phreeky]

isn't it always the case that reservists only deploy overseas (unless aus is directly threatened) if they put their hand up for it? or something along those lines anyway

 

[Tasman]

isn't it always the case that reservists only deploy overseas (unless aus is directly threatened) if they put their hand up for it? or something along those lines anyway

That was the case with the old CMF and it still seems to be the custom in practice but AFAIK Reservists can legally be deployed anywhere the government requires in an emergency, even one not involving a direct threat to the country.

I would have thought that members of High Readiness Reserve units in particular would be expected to be available for deployment whenever required as part of their commitment to this level of reserve service. I would be interested in hearing from people in or close to the Australian military for clarification about this issue.

Cheers

 

[fgx609]

withdrawn

withdrawn

 

[gf0012-aust]

isn't it always the case that reservists only deploy overseas (unless aus is directly threatened) if they put their hand up for it? or something along those lines anyway

It changed during the Timor crisis of 1999. I remember it distinctly as one of the commonwealth lawyers established that we'd deployed the reserves illegally into ET. Apparently they couldn't go unless it was a formal declaration of war.

As a result, there was an emergency sitting of SACPAV and the Sec Grp and it was rushed through parliament with bipartisan support. This happened at about 2 in the morning - I remember as I had to authorise some of my team to go in and recover some documents that some ADF staffer had buggered up.

 

[rickshaw]

The Government had known from at least the time of the Hilton Hotel bombing that it had problems with mobilisation of both the Regular Army and the Reserves from a legal standpoint. Indeed, Fraser had his knuckles severely rapped when he called out the Regs without first informing the GG and getting his signature on the matter, as at that time he was the C-in-C of the ADF, whereas the PM was not. That was changed in the late 1980s IIRC. The matter of partial mobilisation of the ARes was supposed to have been fixed at the same time but it appears it have slipped and then when the new government came in, in 1996, forgotten (perhaps conveniently? ). Of course this always left the Ready Reserve somewhat in limbo during its entire existence from the legal POV.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Un-related but having bearing on the Aus Army... Is it normal for ASLAVs to drive down main roads in Brisbane?

Was just going home a couple of hours back and saw an APC (guessing it was an ASLAV) casually driving along. Is it normal or legal for an APC to commute in the northside of Brisbane near peak hour ? .. not that I care!, in fact i reckon it's a pretty awesome sight, we need more military presence along our roads exibiting our armed forces!

Was a little baffled though since the Gallipoli barracks in which it is based is at Enoggera correct (or I'd assume so) .. he seemed a little far from home lol!

As a police officer in Queensland I can assure you they can quite legitimately travel on any road they wish at any time of day or night.

The ASLAV's are "road registered" as an ADF vehicle and as such able to travel any road, just as any other vehicle (basically) can.

You see them heading south along the SE Freeway qute regularly on "road runs"...

 

[fgx609]

withdrawn

withdrawn

 

[Aussie Digger]

Cheers Aussie Digger. Do you know exactly what they do on these outings ?

Yep, they conduct "road runs", basically training in driving armoured vehicles long distances on formed roads. Often various tactical formations are practised, but this depends on the variable nature of civilian traffic.

"Adapting and overcoming" is a sign of a good soldier...