UK sailors captured at gunpoint

[Galrahn]

They may not be officially free yet, but good news is a lot better than the alternative.

 

[Waylander]

@Manfred
Since when do soldiers give open news conferences after any mission without being filtered by the MoD/press officers?
I would bet on most of the things they have seen are classified material.

Not that it would not be interesting to hear what they have to say.

 

[merocaine]

Hey on another note Utd were beaten 2-1 in rome tonight, all to play for in the return leg.
Come on the mighty reds!!
Bet yeah those soldiers will be after those results as soon as there on the plane!

 

[Tasman]

Great news re the release of the sailors. Once they are actually home on British soil I hope steps will be taken to minimise the possibility of such a thing happening again. Countries with ships patrolling the Gulf need to ensure that their forces are prepared and equipped to ensure that no further incidents of this type will be possible without unacceptable consequences for the Iranian forces involved.

Cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Iran may think it won the war of perceptions domestically and in the Arab world, however, they lost out in the eyes of the wider world.

And they didn't look too swell to begin with, this survey was conducted prior to the hostage taking:

European poll findings on globalisation and foreign policy: Majority of UK and EU citizens would back military action against Iran

04 April 2007

Open Europe today releases further findings from a poll of all 27 EU member states, looking at Europeans’ attitudes to globalisation and a range of foreign policy issues. TNS surveyed 17,443 people during March.

Key findings:

Foreign policy

A majority (51%) of people in the UK would back military action against Iran. A majority agreed with the statement “We must stop countries like Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, even if that means taking military action”. Across the EU as a whole, 52% said they agreed with the statement. A majority agreed with the statement in 18 member states, while a majority were against in 9 member states.

More people in the UK are concerned about Islamic fundamentalism than in any other EU country. 71% agreed with the statement that “Islamic fundamentalism is a serious threat for our country”, compared to an EU average of 58%.

However, few voters in the EU would be prepared to see cuts in other spending programmes to finance higher defence spending. Only 37% of UK voters and 23% of all EU voters agreed with the statement that, “Our country should spend more on defence and less on other things.”

[...]

http://www.openeurope.org.uk/media-centre/pressrelease.aspx?pressreleaseid=36

And the breakdown, see question 4. The curious thing is that UK is one of the countries least positive towards use of the military against Iran.

http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/globalisation.xls

 

[Waylander]

Wow, only 52% in germany tend to disagree with using force to prevent proliferation of nuclear weapons.

And our fear of islamic fundamentalism is the highest one of all countries...

 

[Grand Danois]

Wow, only 52% in germany tend to disagree with using force to prevent proliferation of nuclear weapons.

And our fear of islamic fundamentalism is the highest one of all countries...

I'm thinking it is a conservative think tank, but the poll results are very interesting.

 

[Manfred]

@Manfred
Since when do soldiers give open news conferences after any mission without being filtered by the MoD/press officers?
I would bet on most of the things they have seen are classified material.

Not that it would not be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Bingo. It will be VERY interesting. Maybe they can be de-briefed on the plane, and then go straight to the press as soon as they get off. Not that it would make a huge difference, but we really need to find a way to stick it to this guy somehow.

We catch Iranian Spys in Iraq, and so these guys grab some sailors and get one of them back. That's not good policy.

 

[riksavage]

This whole affair clearly demonstrates the need for vessels better suited to operating in shallow littoral waters. The Type 22 was restricted because of her draft. The UK must now revise ROE’s, provide larger better armed vessels, and/or more heavily armed top-cover.

I have no doubt the Captain of the Type 22 will now be handed to the wolves’ by virtue of the ‘serviceable accountability’ clause; he will take the wrap for what has been a very embarrassing affair for the RN.

Personally I would play Iran at her own game, entice them across the border with a couple of remotely controlled ribs, crewed by plastic dummies, wait till the Iranians cross over then hit them hard with a couple of sea-skua’s – wam bam thank you mam!

 

[Tasman]

This whole affair clearly demonstrates the need for vessels better suited to operating in shallow littoral waters. The Type 22 was restricted because of her draft. The UK must now revise ROE’s, provide larger better armed vessels, and/or more heavily armed top-cover.

I agree with the need for more suitable vessels but I'm not certain they need necessarily to be larger. I think we need fast shallow draft vessels and missile equipped helos.

I have no doubt the Captain of the Type 22 will now be handed to the wolves’ by virtue of the ‘serviceable accountability’ clause; he will take the wrap for what has been a very embarrassing affair for the RN.

Unfortunately I also think this is probably what will happen.

Personally I would play Iran at her own game, entice them across the border with a couple of remotely controlled ribs, crewed by plastic dummies, wait till the Iranians cross over then hit them hard with a couple of sea-skua’s – wam bam thank you mam!

You have a devious mind riksavage. I like the idea!

Cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

I agree with the need for more suitable vessels but I'm not certain they need necessarily to be larger. I think we need fast shallow draft vessels and missile equipped helos.



Unfortunately I also think this is probably what will happen.



You have a devious mind riksavage. I like the idea!

Cheers

It's no doubt why RAN are keen to get Hellfire onto it's Seahawks as well as 12.7mm door guns....

Glad to see those guys have been released now, and given "ever so snappy" suits as well...

 

[Tasman]

It's no doubt why RAN are keen to get Hellfire onto it's Seahawks as well as 12.7mm door guns....

Hellfire would certainly be an improvement over having to rely on the 12.7mm MGs. The addition of the Penguin AShMs originally intended for the Seasprites would be even better.

Cheers

 

[riksavage]

Sorry Tasman , when I was referring to larger vessels I was actually referring to the ribs or an equivalent craft capable of coming along side. They should be fitted with MMG’s, grenade launches or at least carry man-portable LAW’s.

With regard to arming ship-borne helos with additional firepower, the hellfire / Penguin option sounds like over-kill (unit cost of weapon vs. value of target). There must be a cheaper less sophisticated option out there that has the punch to deal with small, annoying threats such as fast speed boats armed with MMG’s currently deployed by the Iranians. How about 40mm automatic grenade launches, or unguided rockets fitted to ship-borne choppers?

Question, what in your opinion is a low cost solution to arming shipborne helos to deal with the Iranian threat?

 

[Todjaeger]

Hellfire would certainly be an improvement over having to rely on the 12.7mm MGs. The addition of the Penguin AShMs originally intended for the Seasprites would be even better.

Cheers

Depending on the size of the FAC being engaged, Hellfire should work just fine. There's a version being either used or tested (not sure) by the USN specifically for engaging FAC in littoral environments. It doesn't use the original HEAT warhead, instead the AGM-114M uses a blast-frag warhead. It doesn't have the punch of a Penguin, but would be plenty to stuff up a FAC.

On a different note, very good to hear that the Brits well be returned home.

-Cheers

 

[Tasman]

Sorry Tasman , when I was referring to larger vessels I was actually referring to the ribs or an equivalent craft capable of coming along side. They should be fitted with MMG’s, grenade launches or at least carry man-portable LAW’s.

With regard to arming ship-borne helos with additional firepower, the hellfire / Penguin option sounds like over-kill (unit cost of weapon vs. value of target). There must be a cheaper less sophisticated option out there that has the punch to deal with small, annoying threats such as fast speed boats armed with MMG’s currently deployed by the Iranians. How about 40mm automatic grenade launches, or unguided rockets fitted to ship-borne choppers?

Question, what in your opinion is a low cost solution to arming shipborne helos to deal with the Iranian threat?

Yes I can see the value in a larger better armed RHIB, providing it is still light and handy enough to operate easily from frigates and destroyers.

Personally, I don't think Hellfire is too much weapon for dealing with Iranian fast attack craft. They may well have a MANPAD embarked (that's why I mentioned Penguin although I admit it might be overkill on a smaller high speed boat). Having said that, unguided rockets and grenade launchers would certainly be better than having to rely on a MG.

Cheers

 

[Todjaeger]

Sorry Tasman , when I was referring to larger vessels I was actually referring to the ribs or an equivalent craft capable of coming along side. They should be fitted with MMG’s, grenade launches or at least carry man-portable LAW’s.

With regard to arming ship-borne helos with additional firepower, the hellfire / Penguin option sounds like over-kill (unit cost of weapon vs. value of target). There must be a cheaper less sophisticated option out there that has the punch to deal with small, annoying threats such as fast speed boats armed with MMG’s currently deployed by the Iranians. How about 40mm automatic grenade launches, or unguided rockets fitted to ship-borne choppers?

Question, what in your opinion is a low cost solution to arming shipborne helos to deal with the Iranian threat?

A 40mm grenade launcher would be a good addition to helos. As for the Hellfire, it depends on the size of the hostile vessels encountered. If they are likely RHIB/Zodiac sized vessels, then yes, a Hellfire is probably overkill. OTOH if they are sometimes somewhat more substantial, then having some Hellfires available would be good. I don't think a Penguin or Sea Skua sized AShM is really called for, since I don't believe the encounters would be with vessels over 60m in size.

Another possible solution, that I think would make sense, would be for the coalition to purchase several FAC in the Dvora or Bay-class size range. Arm them with a 25-40mm (in looking into this, I think 57mm is overkill) RWS, and include a shipmounted Hellfire launcher as well as a RHIB. The RHIB could be used to get to and search a vessel, with the FAC nearby to provide support in the event of an attack, and the FAC wouldn't be restricted nearly as much by shallow water as an FFG or even an FSG. They could also be used to carry Iraqi personnel to train for their navy, and once the mission in Iraq is finished, it could be turned over or sold to Iraq for their navy.

-Cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

Sorry Tasman , when I was referring to larger vessels I was actually referring to the ribs or an equivalent craft capable of coming along side. They should be fitted with MMG’s, grenade launches or at least carry man-portable LAW’s.

With regard to arming ship-borne helos with additional firepower, the hellfire / Penguin option sounds like over-kill (unit cost of weapon vs. value of target). There must be a cheaper less sophisticated option out there that has the punch to deal with small, annoying threats such as fast speed boats armed with MMG’s currently deployed by the Iranians. How about 40mm automatic grenade launches, or unguided rockets fitted to ship-borne choppers?

Question, what in your opinion is a low cost solution to arming shipborne helos to deal with the Iranian threat?

The plus with Hellfire (probably AGM-114K "blast fragmentation" variant, rather than HEAT warhaed) is that the integration work has been done on USN Seahawks, it CAN be used for larger craft if needs be, offers standoff capabilities OS MANPAD range and the same launcher can now be fitted with cheaper guided rockets, without significant difficulties as seen here:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com in the March 2007 press releases section anyway...

Such a weapon, admittedly seems to have only been used in A2G scenario's to date, but as Hellfire has successfully been used in maritime environments, I don't see any great issues for the rocket...

Plus 4x times the load per launcher can be carried, meaning a Seahawk could easily carry 16x guided rockets and 4x Hellfire's, 32 rockets or 8 Hellfire's for a rather flexible load out...

 

[Todjaeger]

The plus with Hellfire (probably AGM-114K "blast fragmentation" variant, rather than HEAT warhaed) is that the integration work has been done on USN Seahawks, it CAN be used for larger craft if needs be, offers standoff capabilities OS MANPAD range and the same launcher can now be fitted with cheaper guided rockets, without significant difficulties as seen here:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=18241&rsbci=0&fti=112&ti=0&sc=400

Such a weapon, admittedly seems to have only been used in A2G scenario's to date, but as Hellfire has successfully been used in maritime environments, I don't see any great issues for the rocket...

Plus 4x times the load per launcher can be carried, meaning a Seahawk could easily carry 16x guided rockets and 4x Hellfire's, 32 rockets or 8 Hellfire's for a rather flexible load out...

It's the AGM-114M, a variant of the -K model.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/agm-114m.htm

The Hellfire has also been carried aboard some small ~30m FAC in the 50-75 ton range as well.

-Cheers

 

[aprasadi]

hey really a gr88 news and relief to all their family members.

But I think their some hidden give and take has happened.

 

[radiosilence]

Good to see the captured Brits back home.