North Korean Nuclear Agreement

[Grand Danois]

But since you're from the country that bought us 2 world wars and the holocaust, it's easy to understand why you'd want to criticize the US.

Play the ball and not the man.

Thanks

 

[Waylander]

@Scott Dunham
Hehehe, you are aware of the fact that he is russian and not german... nfloorl:

(BTW, using the old WWII stick is lame )

 

[Chrom]

Chrom, you don't get it-1 key element remains the same.

As I pointed out earlier, China is not going to allow a US backed invasion of NK. No how, no way, nada, nyet, ain't happening; and that isn't going to change-ever. What part of that don't you understand?

Unlike the "occupation" of the Sudentenland, the US "invasion" of NK was in response to the NK invasion of SK.

Facts. Aug 8, 1945, 2 days after US dropped atom bomb on Hiroshima, Soviets invade Manchuria and Korea, Korean pennisula split. June 29, 1949, final US troops withdrawn from SK except for 200 military advisors. June 25, 1950 NK invaded SK without warning. June 29, US planes bombed NK, US/UN infantry began to arrive in SK July 1. Chinese troops entered conflict in October after UN forces moved north of the 38th parallel. Cease fire signed July 7, 1953.

So again, please answer the question, WHAT CONSTANT THREAT OF US INVASION-PROVIDE SPECIFICS.

Regardless who was quilty 60 years ago, in the last 50 year we have NUMEROUS examples when US attacked countries at will. Grenada, Serbia, Iraq, Afganistan, many smaller countries in Latin America, etc. So, i wouldnt trust USA on Kim place. Would you?

As for Kosovo, why the US is there remains a mystery to me. While the genocide needed to be stopped, Clinton should have let Europe resolve that conflict. I reject the idea of a US invasion, but my knowlege of those events is limited, precluding response at this time.

Sure genocide would need stopped. But doing it with bombs, DU and splitting country is not something i would call acceptable.

On the topic of Iraq, US tax dollars are paying to rebuild Iraq. Most US taxpayers probably thought that would be paid for by Iraqi oil.

Yup. I also think what USA as COUNTRY suffered big economic loss in Iraq. But certain key USA companies and peoples gained BIG money from the same Iraq. Oil companies come to mind first. Military second. Everyone involved in so-called "rebiult" third. Whole Iraq compaign is just big sucking of US taxpayer money.

While the US has made numerous foreign policy errors and will undoubtedly make more in the future, in part that is because the issues are so complex that there is no magic solution that won't have any negative repercussions.

So, you admit what USA made a lot of errors? Well, now guess why Kim (and NK as whole) dont want to be one of such errors.

But since you're from the country that bought us 2 world wars and the holocaust, it's easy to understand why you'd want to criticize the US.

Yes, but Germany did regret it. Besides, what is more important - something what was done 60 years ago by completely different ideology or something what is done in the last 50 years by the very same peoples which are still in power now?

 

[Scott]

So long as China shares a border with NK, a US backed invasion of NK is out of the question. China rescued NK 60 years ago & that situation remains the same.

So unless you're anticipating that the Korean pennisula is going to break free from Asia and migrate hundreds of miles away, unless the little dic tator launches a 1st strike, NK remains safe from a US backed invasion.

:burn

 

[Chrom]

So long as China shares a border with NK, a US backed invasion of NK is out of the question. China rescued NK 60 years ago & that situation remains the same.

So unless you're anticipating that the Korean pennisula is going to break free from Asia and migrate hundreds of miles away, unless the little dic tator launches a 1st strike, NK remains safe from a US backed invasion.

:burn

China could as well change its mind. Moreover, i pretty much doubt what Kim is THAT happy to be THAT depended on China's good favor.

For the very same reason i would speculate what GB dont need nuclear weapon, France is also protected by USA, Israel should completely demobilze its army, and well, whole Europa will be ok with just police becouse USA will surery protect us all. Sounds about as wise as your suggestion about NK

 

[Scott]

I'm not going to get sucked into another unrelated tangent, but NK has far more to fear from being invaded by China than the US.

 

[Chrom]

I'm not going to get sucked into another unrelated tangent, but NK has far more to fear from being invaded by China than the US.

Ha-ha, for that NK DEFINITLY would need A-bomb ;p

 

[eckherl]

Ha-ha, for that NK DEFINITLY would need A-bomb ;p

No one is going to invade North Korea, do you think that China or South Korea want`s to fix the the problems over there, that will take a lot of time and money, plus China is not going to take the chance of having a democracy like South Korea at their borders. They will play the waiting game.

 

[Chrom]

No one is going to invade North Korea, do you think that China or South Korea want`s to fix the the problems over there, that will take a lot of time and money, plus China is not going to take the chance of having a democracy like South Korea at their borders. They will play the waiting game.

Eckherl, tell us stright - could you imaginge only 10 years ago what whole NATO would invade Serbia? Or only 20 years ago what in 5 years best Iraq friend - US - would crush its forces? Or the very creator of Taliban - would bomb&hunt them only several years later? Things change so fast once someone see opportunity...
Remember, both Russia and China are quite fed up with NK, so they will not defend NK THAT much. Besides, as i said - China is not so reliable in that regard now. Either way, regadless if someone want or not attack NK - having A-Bomb is they SOUVEREIGN right. You gotta pay them good so they abandon nuclear development. It is in Western interest. Just keep in mind - they owe nothing to rest of the world. NK dont do anything what wasnt done by 20 other countries already. You cant even pretend them being terrorists or crazy - becouse clearly they are not.

 

[Grand Danois]

You gotta pay them good so they abandon nuclear development. It is in Western interest. Just keep in mind - they owe nothing to rest of the world. NK dont do anything what wasnt done by 20 other countries already. You cant even pretend them being terrorists or crazy - becouse clearly they are not.

Curiously, the reason why NK is making so much noise is because it is effectively ignored by the West.

If you look beyond SK and Japan, nobody gives a sh!t. That is unless you look upon it as a proliferation issue, which has everything to do with blackmail and nothing to do with self defence.

 

[Chrom]

Curiously, the reason why NK is making so much noise is because it is effectively ignored by the West.

Hmm, tell me WHAT noise do NK??? All the noise goes from western medias. NK only catched attention becouse, well, West as a whole want to greate that much attention for NK. As you said, NK is very unimportant by its nature, it is non-agressive poor country and obviously is no threat for anyone. Why it catched so much attention?

If you look beyond SK and Japan, nobody gives a sh!t. That is unless you look upon it as a proliferation issue, which has everything to do with blackmail and nothing to do with self defence.

Proliferation ussue... Yes, it is important. But NK is stable country with strong ideology and very good internal control. NK leaders are smart enouth, and by every account they are not fanatics. So NK have every right to have A-Bomb.

What blackmailing you mention? Have NK said something like "we will nuke SK if you dont give us 100 bil $$"?
But of course it could said something like "we will nuke SK, Japan and all US bases if you attack us!". But it is no blackmailing, it is just legitimate warning.

 

[Grand Danois]

Hmm, tell me WHAT noise do NK??? All the noise goes from western medias. NK only catched attention becouse, well, West as a whole want to greate that much attention for NK. As you said, NK is very unimportant by its nature, it is non-agressive poor country and obviously is no threat for anyone. Why it catched so much attention?

Don't confuse media for what is going on on the strategic and political level. NK is basically throwing its food on the floor, expecting responsible countries to pick it up.

Proliferation ussue... Yes, it is important. But NK is stable country with strong ideology and very good internal control. NK leaders are smart enouth, and by every account they are not fanatics. So NK have every right to have A-Bomb.

What blackmailing you mention? Have NK said something like "we will nuke SK if you dont give us 100 bil $$"?
But of course it could said something like "we will nuke SK, Japan and all US bases if you attack us!". But it is no blackmailing, it is just legitimate warning.

That's not what I am talking about. This is about the spreading of materials, knowledge and technology - all of which makes the world a more unsafe place. NK can extract a toll on that.

NK could be said to have a right to develop nuclear weapons. You just forget that the surrounding world has an equal right to respond to that development.

 

[Waylander]

Not to talk of things like sending commandos in mini subs into the south, firing missiles over Japan, assasinations and kidnapping of foreigners, letting their own population starve,...

 

[Chrom]

Don't confuse media for what is going on on the strategic and political level. NK is basically throwing its food on the floor, expecting responsible countries to pick it up.

That's not what I am talking about. This is about the spreading of materials, knowledge and technology - all of which makes the world a more unsafe place. NK can extract a toll on that.

Its merery a propaganda. History show us what USSR and West spreaded materials, knowledge and technology 100 times more than NK ever can. ALL current nuclear countries got they A-Bomb materials & technologies NOT from "rogue" states but from superpowers. NK elite is sane enouth to NOT sell A-Bomb to terrorists. Anything else is just speculations.

World WILL get more unsafe, and bombing every country what somehow dont fit US vision is not helping here. Every country what oppose US have seen on the example of Iraq what NOT having nuclear weapon is suicide. Only A-Bomb can guarantee safety. As such, i expect another 10-15 countries to posses A-Bomb in the next 20 years.

NK could be said to have a right to develop nuclear weapons. You just forget that the surrounding world has an equal right to respond to that development.

Sure. But invading NK is NOT the right of "surrounding" world. "World" countries can sanction NK - it is they souvereign right. But they cant ATTACK NK becouse, well, NK have souvereign rights over its territory. This is the basic of international law. And, remember, "World" in that case also cant pretend what it is somehow "good" in this case.

 

[Grand Danois]

Its merery a propaganda. History show us what USSR and West spreaded materials, knowledge and technology 100 times more than NK ever can. ALL current nuclear countries got they A-Bomb materials & technologies NOT from "rogue" states but from superpowers. NK elite is sane enouth to NOT sell A-Bomb to terrorists. Anything else is just speculations.

Let's see. US, UK, France, Russia, China and India developed their own. Israel got theirs from France. Pakistan got theirs by stealing technology from Europe and from cooperation with - NK. And Pakistan was deep in profilerating to other countries until the Khan network was stopped.

So much for the US as nuclear proliferator. Second, the US through extended their nuclear umbrella has made a great number of allies abstaining from developing and deploying a bomb. Australia, Italy, Japan, etc.

Terrorists are a strawman.

World WILL get more unsafe, and bombing every country what somehow dont fit US vision is not helping here. Every country what oppose US have seen on the example of Iraq what NOT having nuclear weapon is suicide. Only A-Bomb can guarantee safety. As such, i expect another 10-15 countries to posses A-Bomb in the next 20 years.

A limited arsenal protects no one from teh US. Seriously, it doesn't apply to real world use.

Sure. But invading NK is NOT the right of "surrounding" world. "World" countries can sanction NK - it is they souvereign right. But they cant ATTACK NK becouse, well, NK have souvereign rights over its territory. This is the basic of international law. And, remember, "World" in that case also cant pretend what it is somehow "good" in this case.

You confuse sovereignty with legitimacy. Legitimacy of a regime is solely based on how it takes care of the interest of its population, how it bases and uses its powers, and how it interacts with the international community. These are nessecary to be recognised as a state entity.

By its own doing and own choices NK has outlawed itself in every respect. The only thing that shelters it is potential for damage and the fact that the rest of the world ignores it.

NK has to make a lot of noise to get some attention.

 

[Waylander]

I think South Africa also developed the bomb by their own but tthey got rid of it at the end of the apartheid regime.

 

[Scott]

This is about the spreading of materials, knowledge and technology - all of which makes the world a more unsafe place. NK can extract a toll on that.

NK could be said to have a right to develop nuclear weapons. You just forget that the surrounding world has an equal right to respond to that development.

Right on the money! With money being the operative word. NK has demonstrated a disregard for weapons proliferation by selling missles to rogue states. Selling nuclear bombs or nuclear waste for dirty bombs could be very lucrative. We'd be able to trace the signature back to them, but by then it's a little late.

I have to wonder how anyone that supports NK's sovereign right to develop nukes would feel if their families died as a result of an NK nuke that got into terrorist hands.

 

[Chrom]

Let's see. US, UK, France, Russia, China and India developed their own. Israel got theirs from France. Pakistan got theirs by stealing technology from Europe and from cooperation with - NK. And Pakistan was deep in profilerating to other countries until the Khan network was stopped.

UK, France got they from US - at least large part of its knowledge. China got big help from USSR when they were still friends. India - also not completely by itself. Pakistan is either "stealing" from US/Europe - but it doesnt matter legal or not, fact remains. So, what history shows here? Who proliferating what? Its definitly not "rogue" states who we should fear for proliferation as i said...

Y
So much for the US as nuclear proliferator. Second, the US through extended their nuclear umbrella has made a great number of allies abstaining from developing and deploying a bomb. Australia, Italy, Japan, etc.

Italy, Japan, Germany didnt developed A-bomb ONLY becouse they lost WW2 and was NOT allowed to have strong military, let alone A-Bomb. Note, however, what all these countries got strong nuclear industry , and can build A-Bomb literally within days. They could probably have A-Bomb now, when they starting to drift from US inluence - but they are integriert to West anyway, so it is not THAT important for them. For cultures what are DIFFERENT from West community it is whole another matter. They cant expect such protection from anyone - they should care for themselfes.

Terrorists are a strawman.
A limited arsenal protects no one from teh US. Seriously, it doesn't apply to real world use.

History shows it will do. US will not attack nuclear capable country.

You confuse sovereignty with legitimacy. Legitimacy of a regime is solely based on how it takes care of the interest of its population, how it bases and uses its powers, and how it interacts with the international community. These are nessecary to be recognised as a state entity.

Sure. Basicaly, NK regime is recognized by ALL world countries - and i mean even by US. How they care for they population - that should decide they population, and NOT some foreign country by FORCE. This is exactly what an army is for - to protect homeland against such "help".

By its own doing and own choices NK has outlawed itself in every respect. The only thing that shelters it is potential for damage and the fact that the rest of the world ignores it.

Hmm, seems you again mix world with "West". Trust me, world is NOT represented by US alone. You know, there are also some other countries on the globe. I remember the number is close to 200 actually...

NK has to make a lot of noise to get some attention.

I feel it is more like US goverment wants to shift some attention from dungerous internal dirty affairs to harmless NK "evil dictator".

 

[Grand Danois]

UK, France got they from US - at least large part of its knowledge.

There was a big fallout post WW2 because UK (and the French) was denied the knowledge from the Manhattan project. There was no sharing.

China got big help from USSR when they were still friends. India - also not completely by itself. Pakistan is either "stealing" from US/Europe - but it doesnt matter legal or not, fact remains. So, what history shows here? Who proliferating what? Its definitly not "rogue" states who we should fear for proliferation as i said...

And actively cooperating with NK. Question: you see a number of states going nuclear. Who? And who helped them?

Italy, Japan, Germany didnt developed A-bomb ONLY becouse they lost WW2 and was NOT allowed to have strong military, let alone A-Bomb. Note, however, what all these countries got strong nuclear industry , and can build A-Bomb literally within days. They could probably have A-Bomb now, when they starting to drift from US inluence - but they are integriert to West anyway, so it is not THAT important for them. For cultures what are DIFFERENT from West community it is whole another matter. They cant expect such protection from anyone - they should care for themselfes.

It was important to them. And if it wasn't for the nuclear umbrella, they would have. And there are also the countries that weren't part of the Axis.

History shows it will do. US will not attack nuclear capable country.

You mean like India? Israel? UK? France? China? Etc.? Pakistan? USSR?

There's no history to prove it.

The operational concept is as always "credible deterence". Second thing is that the US has a deterrence of its own. And that is a credible deterrence against nuclear use against them.

Sure. Basicaly, NK regime is recognized by ALL world countries - and i mean even by US. How they care for they population - that should deside they population, and NOT some foreign country by FORCE.

Recognition of the nation-state, because it is convenient. Sovereignty exists because others recognise it, not because it is some divine right given from above.

The regime has no legitimacy in the eyes of other states as long at it behaves like a common thug. Recognition of the right to selfdefence applies to other. Has Japan declared war over the abduction of its civilians on its own soil? This could be rightfully be considered and act of war. Did NK repect any sovereignty? Firing missiles over Japan?

ow about NK counterfeiting US notes. This could also be considered an act of war. NK subs in SK waters? An act of war, disrepecting sovereignty.

And this happened without NK having any nukes. And no military response...

No. NK is being ignored into oblivion, and they know it. That's why they're making so much noise.

The people(s) of Korea should decide - yes. I haven't argued regime change. It a strawman you have made.

This is exactly what an army is for - to protect homeland against such "help".

Continuation of strawman. Note: it is the firepower that NK has that makes it necessary to talk to it - not it benevolent gifts to this world. It is the noises it makes.

Hmm, seems you again mix world with "West". Trust me, world is NOT represented by US alone. You know, there are also some other countries on the globe. I remember its something close to 200 actually...

Yes, and most don't give a damn or have special interests like China or SK/Japan.

NK is technically at war with the UN.

I feel it is more like US goverment wants to shift some attention from dungerous internal dirty affairs to harmless NK "evil dictator".

Actually the US has been playing NK down the past years. Also, the US is practically reducing its presence every year.

The US is just an excuse for bad behaviour, just like so many other countries use the US as an excuse for bad behaviour.

Btw, would you like to have the NK agents loose in Russia abducting and killing your citizens, counterfeiting Rubles, firing ballistic missiles over your heads? Exporting NK govt produced narcotics into Russia?

 

[sparta]

remember the koreon war never was offically over and the dmz exists only because of a cease fire agreement