North Korean Nuclear Agreement

[Ozzy Blizzard]

It seems a diplomatic solution has been found. The Korean's have agreed to dismantle their main nuclear reactor within 60 days in exchange for 50 000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil, and 950 000 in the futre if it shuts it down permanantly. Pyonyang has also agreed to dismantle its nuke programe. This is great news!:dance3

Was this the objective the whole time? Conduct a test to create a massive international backlash, then negotiate for as much as they could get? Thats gutsie diplomacy. Is there any similarities between the North Korean and Iranian nuke programs? What do you guys think the chances are of a similar deal being struck with Theran if any?

 

[Chrom]

It seems a diplomatic solution has been found. The Korean's have agreed to dismantle their main nuclear reactor within 60 days in exchange for 50 000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil, and 950 000 in the futre if it shuts it down permanantly. Pyonyang has also agreed to dismantle its nuke programe. This is great news!:dance3

Was this the objective the whole time? Conduct a test to create a massive international backlash, then negotiate for as much as they could get? Thats gutsie diplomacy. Is there any similarities between the North Korean and Iranian nuke programs? What do you guys think the chances are of a similar deal being struck with Theran if any?

There is one fundamental problem in NK: the lack of energy. So they have no choce but build nuclear station. This is the point where all diplomatic efforts concentrate now. Keep in mind, USA already fooled NK 10 years ago with nuclear reactor they promised to build for NK, so most likely NK will be satisfied only if Russia will agree to build such reactor. But, Russia will not build it for free, and NK dont have enouth money. So the funds should come from the West, and its very, very hard for USA to give money to Russia for NK reactor. Practicaly, impossible. So, i'm almost sure what these currently reached agreements wont lead anywhere in the long run. NK will still continue developing nuclear energy on they own.

 

[Waylander]

I thought they are talking about stopping the nuclear weapons program and not nuclear energy program...


In the end this is big scale blackmailing.

But what else can be done?

 

[Rich]

There is one fundamental problem in NK: the lack of energy. So they have no choce but build nuclear station. This is the point where all diplomatic efforts concentrate now. Keep in mind, USA already fooled NK 10 years ago with nuclear reactor they promised to build for NK, so most likely NK will be satisfied only if Russia will agree to build such reactor. But, Russia will not build it for free, and NK dont have enouth money. So the funds should come from the West, and its very, very hard for USA to give money to Russia for NK reactor. Practicaly, impossible. So, i'm almost sure what these currently reached agreements wont lead anywhere in the long run. NK will still continue developing nuclear energy on they own.

Um, hold on. NK failed to hold up to its end of the agreement. Or were we supposed to keep building nuke stations for them even if they continued their program? Thanks Jimmy Carter for making us all look like weak fools.

I actually forget how many times NK has lied, deceived, violated. But I have no doubts this deal is going nowhere and NK is just doing there manipulation thing. No doubt they just want food and oil from us to make maintaining their vast military machine easier. Its well know the guy with the bad hair piece is enamored with his nukes and since hes not missing any meals, really, what are the chances he suddenly caught the peace bug?

 

[Waylander]

You mean porn Kim?

The interesting thing is that the west do not even know how much power is left to him.

It is not unthinkable that there has been a (partial) military coup in the '90s (Some rumours about this) and now they put him onto his mini hollywood studios and just use for the leader cult.

Difficult, difficult.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

As part of the agreement they do have to shut it down permanantly, like not just turn it off but break it so it cant be turned back on, ever, under international inspection. And they'll have to do this if they want their 950 000 tonnes of fule oil. Personally i think they'll do it, I didn't really see any point in their nuke program, it just further isolated them internationally and caused problems with their only ally China. It made a conflict with SK/US more likely instead of less. And theres nothing in the agreement about their enery program, i doubt anyone would mind if Pyonyang built a heavy water reactor, just reactors capable of breeding weapons grade plutonium/uranium.

 

[Chrom]

Um, hold on. NK failed to hold up to its end of the agreement. Or were we supposed to keep building nuke stations for them even if they continued their program? Thanks Jimmy Carter for making us all look like weak fools.

I actually forget how many times NK has lied, deceived, violated. But I have no doubts this deal is going nowhere and NK is just doing there manipulation thing. No doubt they just want food and oil from us to make maintaining their vast military machine easier. Its well know the guy with the bad hair piece is enamored with his nukes and since hes not missing any meals, really, what are the chances he suddenly caught the peace bug?

Hmm, its hard to say who broke what. USA is not exactly know for obeing agreements and telling truth. See ex. Iraq WMD, Yougoslavia genocide, 9/11, ABM threaty, etc, etc. As i remember USA blamed NK for something completely unrelated to they agreement (i believe something connected to democracy and development of missiles) and aborted building of nuclear reactor for NK, later also aborted all economical help. Also keep in mind, NK military mashine is only there cuz USA constanly threat to invade NK. Its of course good way to win enemy without too much blood on the own side, but please dont call it somehow justified and right.
P.S. "There is nothing in the agreement about they energy program" - that is the root of all problems. As long as ther is no word about energy program all other agreements worth squat.

 

[bonita.h]

The only thing that i am sure is NK government will never give up its nuclear program,no matter what pressure they would be imposed on.All they did are just double-dealings. it's also the only way to keep that regime alive. I feel China and US are gradually getting closer on the issue due to NK's cheating actions.
any optimism is illusion.

 

[Chrom]

The only thing that i am sure is NK government will never give up its nuclear program,no matter what pressure they would be imposed on.All they did are just double-dealings. it's also the only way to keep that regime alive. I feel China and US are gradually getting closer on the issue due to NK's cheating actions.
any optimism is illusion.

As i said - without 2 things any agreement worth squat. These 2 things are:
1. Completely insurance against USA invasion.
2. Economical help.

2nd thing cant be done without 1st, so its all up to USA. As long as it threats NK, NK will be forced to develop nuclear weapon. As long as it dont have nuclear weapon, it will be forced to maintain unsensible military. As long as it forced to maintain such military forces, nothing good happens.

 

[eckherl]

As i said - without 2 things any agreement worth squat. These 2 things are:
1. Completely insurance against USA invasion.
2. Economical help.

2nd thing cant be done without 1st, so its all up to USA. As long as it threats NK, NK will be forced to develop nuclear weapon. As long as it dont have nuclear weapon, it will be forced to maintain unsensible military. As long as it forced to maintain such military forces, nothing good happens.

No it is not up to just the U.S.A, China, Russia and South Korea need to stop rewarding him for bad behavior, this is a tactic that alway`s seems to work for uncle Kim, but this time he went too far and he has really upset China with his one finger salute when they asked him to calm down.
This truly amazes me that some of you think we (U.S.A) need to resolve this matter, why isn`t China and Russia taking on more of a active part, did they not provide support for North Korea`s quest to invade and take over South Korea? Stop giving in to the little tyrannt and he will eventually play ball. He knows with over ten thousand artillery and rocket batteries aimed at South Korea that the U.S would never even think about invading him, why would we.

Kim Jong Ill is no idiot, he knows that he better get what he can now or the end will be coming real quick, here is some reasons why.
1. A new South Korean president is around the corner, the front runner has already stated that enough is enough when dealing with their north neighbors.
2. He has lost his military edge and support of ever taking over South Korea.
3. Japan is most likely going to expand/enlarge their military.
4. China is deeply upset with him which he cannot afford.
5. World opinion has turned totally against him.

I blame Russia - wasn`t it Joseph Stalin who felt that kim Ill Sung was his little puppet and gave him the ambition and material to invade South Korea, if this is the case then Russia should be responsible in finalizing the end to all this drama and ensure that no one in Asia or North Korea has to live in fear anymore.

 

[Chrom]

No it is not up to just the U.S.A, China, Russia and South Korea need to stop rewarding him for bad behavior, this is a tactic that alway`s seems to work for uncle Kim, but this time he went too far and he has really upset China with his one finger salute when they asked him to calm down.

But what you call "bad behavior"? Remember, every country have souvereign right to develop any weapon its enemy have. Certainly, NK should recive something for abandoning its nuclear weapon program, no? This was original plan back in 90x, but then it got somehow conntected with democracy, human rights, and all that propaganda crap and got shafted.

This truly amazes me that some of you think we (U.S.A) need to resolve this matter, why isn`t China and Russia taking on more of a active part, did they not provide support for North Korea`s quest to invade and take over South Korea? Stop giving in to the little tyrannt and he will eventually play ball. He knows with over ten thousand artillery and rocket batteries aimed at South Korea that the U.S would never even think about invading him, why would we.

Becouse, again, without USA all other agreements worth squat. Besides, Russia and China are not very concerned about Kim's nuclear weapon. They sure dont want attack NK and as such feel no threat from NK going nuclear. Noone really believe what Kim somehow turn agressive without prior major invasion.

Kim Jong Ill is no idiot

Sure, thats why Russia and China dont feel threated.

, he knows that he better get what he can now or the end will be coming real quick, here is some reasons why.
1. A new South Korean president is around the corner, the front runner has already stated that enough is enough when dealing with their north neighbors.
2. He has lost his military edge and support of ever taking over South Korea.
3. Japan is most likely going to expand/enlarge their military.
4. China is deeply upset with him which he cannot afford.
5. World opinion has turned totally against him.

Lets see - all that means only bomb will save him in the case of military conflict. In the case of so-called "peacefull end" nothing will save him as West repeatedly failed own promises about "safe" bail-outs for other dictators. Noone in they right mind will believe US or West in general will hold they promises. As such Kim will try to hold the power as long as he can. For that he need either
A-Bomb or economical prosperity

I blame Russia - wasn`t it Joseph Stalin who felt that kim Ill Sung was his little puppet and gave him the ambition and material to invade South Korea, if this is the case then Russia should be responsible in finalizing the end to all this drama and ensure that no one in Asia or North Korea has to live in fear anymore.

Well, you are somewhat right. However, West also done its own share of supporting evil dictators and canibals (sadly, West still continue doing so...) - so i wouldnt blame Stalin alone. Either way, as i said, Russia feel Kim is not a threat to the World and as such dont feel obliged to remove him from power.

 

[eckherl]

But what you call "bad behavior"? Remember, every country have souvereign right to develop any weapon its enemy have. Certainly, NK should recive something for abandoning its nuclear weapon program, no? This was original plan back in 90x, but then it got somehow conntected with democracy, human rights, and all that propaganda crap and got shafted.
Becouse, again, without USA all other agreements worth squat. Besides, Russia and China are not very concerned about Kim's nuclear weapon. They sure dont want attack NK and as such feel no threat from NK going nuclear. Noone really believe what Kim somehow turn agressive without prior major invasion.

Sure, thats why Russia and China dont feel threated. Lets see - all that means only bomb will save him in the case of military conflict. In the case of so-called "peacefull end" nothing will save him as West repeatedly failed own promises about "safe" bail-outs for other dictators. Noone in they right mind will believe US or West in general will hold they promises. As such Kim will try to hold the power as long as he can. For that he need either
A-Bomb or economical prosperity
Well, you are somewhat right. However, West also done its own share of supporting evil dictators and canibals (sadly, West still continue doing so...) - so i wouldnt blame Stalin alone. Either way, as i said, Russia feel Kim is not a threat to the World and as such dont feel obliged to remove him from power.

Of course Russia doesen`t feel threatened, he is not pissed at them plus he cannot get any type of aide or currency from them, it is easier to blame/ threaten the U.S because he knows that the U.S has a history of digging into their pockets and caving into demands or otherwise the UN will point at us and say shame on you, be the bigger person right, it doesn`t matter how many people are dying and starving on a daily basis over there because of him, the U.S is the blame because we do not support tyrannts.

 

[Chrom]

Of course Russia doesen`t feel threatened, he is not pissed at them plus he cannot get any type of aide or currency from them, it is easier to blame/ threaten the U.S because he knows that the U.S has a history of digging into their pockets and caving into demands or otherwise the UN will point at us and say shame on you, be the bigger person right, it doesn`t matter how many people are dying and starving on a daily basis over there because of him, .

See, what happened in Iraq, Afganistan, Vietnam, Kosovo, etc. after USA invasion? How many peoples dead? 10 times as much as any dictator would kill, and moreover, they still die at 10x as much rate, and there is no light visible in the end. In the VERY best case Iraq will end with someone like USA supported Saddam again, and he will be able to reunite the country and build some civilian life. Also keep in mind, what most of NK peoples dead in the mid 90x famine die precisely BECOUSE of USA sanctions...

the U.S is the blame because we do not support tyrannts

Oh man, dont bring it here. USA supported literally cannibals 25 years ago when it suited them, and USA still support dozens of much worse dictators than Saddam right now.

So, please, dont bring human rights and civilian lives here, as obviosly they are NOT something USA care.

 

[eckherl]

See, what happened in Iraq, Afganistan, Vietnam, Kosovo, etc. after USA invasion? How many peoples dead? 10 times as much as any dictator would kill, and moreover, they still die at 10x as much rate, and there is no light visible in the end. In the VERY best case Iraq will end with someone like USA supported Saddam again, and he will be able to reunite the country and build some civilian life. Also keep in mind, what most of NK peoples dead in the mid 90x famine die precisely BECOUSE of USA sanctions...
Oh man, dont bring it here. USA supported literally cannibals 25 years ago when it suited them, and USA still support dozens of much worse dictators than Saddam right now.

So, please, dont bring human rights and civilian lives here, as obviosly they are NOT something USA care.

Chrom - your pro ex Soviet Union stance is starting to humor me, say what you will about my country, you have that right, it is called freedom of speech and being able to express your opinion.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom - your pro ex Soviet Union stance is starting to humor me, say what you will about my country, you have that right, it is called freedom of speech and being able to express your opinion.

It only look like as i'm pro-soviet becouse you are used to your home media "vision". Try to understand what other peoples have right to the different opinion, and something what is "good' for your country is not neccessary "good" for another. Not becouse another country is evil - no, just becouse it have different national interests. I know about USSR, WW2 political history and communism/socialism more than 99% peoples here in the West, and its my, well, hobby to defeat many myths what was greated by western propaganda. I also like military technic of all kinds $)

 

[Scott]

Also keep in mind, NK military mashine is only there cuz USA constanly threat to invade NK.

What constant threat to invade NK? The US knows China is not going to stand by and allow a US backed invasion of NK. NK has a legitimate fear of a US strike to take out their nuclear capabilities. Get rid of that and what excuse does the US have, unless NK invades SK.

There were reports last year that China was taking action to reduce the influx of NK's sneaking across their border. What do you think it means when people are trying to get out, not in.

Are NK's allowed to emigrate/escape to SK? How many people died of stavation in SK during the famine? Is it a coincidence that SK is a thriving democracy while NK is an improverished dictatorship?

 

[Chrom]

What constant threat to invade NK? The US knows China is not going to stand by and allow a US backed invasion of NK. NK has a legitimate fear of a US strike to take out their nuclear capabilities. Get rid of that and what excuse does the US have, unless NK invades SK.

1st, why it should get rid of that? NK is sovereign country. 2nd, who believe US is NOT gonna attack NK if it can? Whatever lauchable excuse it will use, doesnt matter. Ex. Iraq, Sebia, etc.

There were reports last year that China was taking action to reduce the influx of NK's sneaking across their border. What do you think it means when people are trying to get out, not in.

Well, surerey NK is not that nice place to live. Understandable. There is only 1 problem with that - whatever US do it will be only WORSE for average peoples. Again, many examples.

Are NK's allowed to emigrate/escape to SK? How many people died of stavation in SK during the famine? Is it a coincidence that SK is a thriving democracy while NK is an improverished dictatorship?

Nope, of course not. NK is bad dictatorship - no questions. But bombing NK will not help. Again, we have many examples of that. Moreover, US want to bomb NK ONLY becouse it is uncontrollable COMMUNIST dictatorship. Seems USA dont have any problems with any other forms of dictatoships where even more peoples die - of course, if these dictators allow US oil companies. Regardless of how bad NK is you shouldnt connect abandoning NK nuclear program (and assocciated economical help for that) with human rights. It is just counter-productive. Thats where most disagreements arise between USA and Russia/China.

 

[Scott]

Again, what constant threat of invasion of NK? Provide specifics.

In the past 50 yrs if the US was looking for an excuse to invade NK, we would have found it. The Pueblo incident was easily an act of war against the US.

Are you now suggesting that the US invaded Serbia? That was/is a NATO operation and the Russians were there too.

As for Iraq, Saddam violated the UN Peace Agreement so many times, it's surprising Clinton didn't launch an invasion.

You have a pretty weak grasp of the facts. And you know damn little about the US.
uke

 

[Chrom]

Again, what constant threat of invasion of NK? Provide specifics.

In the past 50 yrs if the US was looking for an excuse to invade NK, we would have found it. The Pueblo incident was easily an act of war against the US.

You dont get, right? Of course IF USA was looking for exuse - it would find it. Thats the WHOLE point - USA can always find excuse. Of course the stopping point was not the excuse - but MAJOR political & military problems in case of such invasion. Remember, USA already tryed it 50 years ago. 20 Years ago it would be even worse. Now, even without USSR backing - China emerged, and both SK and Japan will be VERY unhappy about US invasion. However, should NK decline its military - and nothing will stop USA blitzkrieg.

Are you now suggesting that the US invaded Serbia? That was/is a NATO operation and the Russians were there too.

Yes, USA invaded Serbia. But firstly, USA BOMBED Serbia to ruins, and diseased it with DU. Russia was against bombing, but once NATO ground invasion begun, Russia moved some of it peacekeeper forces on the request of Serbian goverment, WITHOUT NATO allowance or consultance.
As for NATO-USA... we know damn well who is the boss here.

As for Iraq, Saddam violated the UN Peace Agreement so many times, it's surprising Clinton didn't launch an invasion.

Every country violated UN treaty one time or another. BTW, USA closest ally - Israel done it more often than ALL other countries combined. Remember, UN treaties ALWAYS contain rescriptions about what punishments should be done in case of violations. You can do LESS than these for objective reasons, but you cant punish MORE and call it UN allowance. Becouse it is not. It is just excuse for invasion. Besides, remember how USA deliberatly lied to UN about Iraq WMD and own citizens about Iraq connection to 9/11?

You have a pretty weak grasp of the facts. And you know damn little about the US.
uke

I dont know very much about USA internal politic, but i know damn lot about USA foreign politic. Hell, anyone with half brain and semi-good memory know it.

P.S. Ugh, understand it already - USA goverment peoples are no angels. They follow USA interests in the BEST case, and OWN interests in the worst. They dont care if millions peoples die IF it would help them to be elected next time. Or recive addidional 400 billions $$ for Iraq "democratization"

 

[Scott]

Chrom, you don't get it-1 key element remains the same.

As I pointed out earlier, China is not going to allow a US backed invasion of NK. No how, no way, nada, nyet, ain't happening; and that isn't going to change-ever. What part of that don't you understand?

Unlike the "occupation" of the Sudentenland, the US "invasion" of NK was in response to the NK invasion of SK.

Facts. Aug 8, 1945, 2 days after US dropped atom bomb on Hiroshima, Soviets invade Manchuria and Korea, Korean pennisula split. June 29, 1949, final US troops withdrawn from SK except for 200 military advisors. June 25, 1950 NK invaded SK without warning. June 29, US planes bombed NK, US/UN infantry began to arrive in SK July 1. Chinese troops entered conflict in October after UN forces moved north of the 38th parallel. Cease fire signed July 7, 1953.

So again, please answer the question, WHAT CONSTANT THREAT OF US INVASION-PROVIDE SPECIFICS.

As for Kosovo, why the US is there remains a mystery to me. While the genocide needed to be stopped, Clinton should have let Europe resolve that conflict. I reject the idea of a US invasion, but my knowlege of those events is limited, precluding response at this time.

On the topic of Iraq, US tax dollars are paying to rebuild Iraq. Most US taxpayers probably thought that would be paid for by Iraqi oil.

While the US has made numerous foreign policy errors and will undoubtedly make more in the future, in part that is because the issues are so complex that there is no magic solution that won't have any negative repercussions.

But since you're from the country that bought us 2 world wars and the holocaust, it's easy to understand why you'd want to criticize the US.