Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

aaaditya

New Member
True. However I am still not sure on whether Marlin would be chosen. Diehl BGT said during IDEAS 2006 that the IDAS and other IRIS-T variants were on offer to Pakistan. Besides that, H Khan - another credible member on PakDef - said that the PN is planning to buy the DM2A4 torpedo. Also the fact that Marlin is still based off the Scorpene, which would give India a fair idea on its weaknesses - and the U-214 offer was reportedly cheaper.

On the official level the U-214 SSK seems to be on top, anything under the table and based off private sources suggest Marlin is on top.
it would be interesting to see what the request for proposals for this submrine be,in case you dont know india is issuing request for proposals for hdw and the amur at the end of the year,any idea when pakistan would be sending its request for proposal and to whom?

is pakistan also cosidering the chinese yuan class of submarine?
 

BilalK

New Member
I believe the RFPs have been sent sometime last year to DCN, HDW and Navantia. In fact the PN was supposed to decide which one to choose sometime early this year but decided to postpone its final decision.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
First F-22P will arrive in 2008-2009 with the other 3 by 2013. There are no stop-gaps or fillers planned, but new acquisitions are. I think the F-22P, corvette (Milgem?) and frigate (Type-054?) will begin induction in time to replace the 6 Type-21.
well, I have the kanwa articles on F-22P posted on my blog
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/
build schedule is basically, HD shipyard started the first one on October of 2006, and will start the construction of the next 2 in Feb/March of 2007 and then June/July of 2007. The one in Karachi starts construction in 2009. Actually Pakistan can probably get it delivered much faster if it paid more, but it didn't.

As for 054A, HH-16 is not the same as 9M317 despite what some people may claim. It is much smaller than the shtil VLU. They have a 32 cell VLS on 054A currently. If you look at it, it actually offers better air defense than the Sov and 052B despite the much smaller size. And compared to FREMM, I think it offers better air defence too.
 

contedicavour

New Member
As for 054A, HH-16 is not the same as 9M317 despite what some people may claim. It is much smaller than the shtil VLU. They have a 32 cell VLS on 054A currently. If you look at it, it actually offers better air defense than the Sov and 052B despite the much smaller size. And compared to FREMM, I think it offers better air defence too.
Could you please explain how the HH16 is supposed to be better than the Aster 15/30 tandem on FREMMs ? Surprising...

cheers
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Could you please explain how the HH16 is supposed to be better than the Aster 15/30 tandem on FREMMs ? Surprising...

cheers
well, let me clarify a little bit first. I'm saying I believe the overall air defense capability of 054A will be better than FREMM once FREMM joins service. So that means not that 054A is better than FREMM or that HH-16 is better than Aster 15/30. btw, I'm not aware Aster 30 is equipped on FREMM, the sites I checked mentionned just Aster 15. As for why, I typically get into an argument with Transient everytime we start talking about Aster/Herakles vs HH-16. You can check the closed down Formidable thread to see what I mean.

So, I will just say that the advantage 054A holds mainly lies in the 2 type 730 CIWS over whatever FREMM has (it seemed nothing significant). And also, while AK-176m is not a better gun than Otobreda 76 mm gun, I think it might be slightly better in the air defence area due to its faster rate of fire. I don't want to get too deep into HH-16, but this is kind of interesting, it seems they are currently trialing a new MFR to replace SR-64 on 054A.
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2007/03/some-new-findings-from-today.html
That's why I say there will be some improvements on the current 054A by the time FREMM becomes available.
 

BilalK

New Member
Well by the time FREMM is in service, I imagine a Type-054 variant (B, C, D?) would be in PLAN service and would have a much better air defence system than the Type-054A.
 

contedicavour

New Member
well, let me clarify a little bit first. I'm saying I believe the overall air defense capability of 054A will be better than FREMM once FREMM joins service. So that means not that 054A is better than FREMM or that HH-16 is better than Aster 15/30. btw, I'm not aware Aster 30 is equipped on FREMM, the sites I checked mentionned just Aster 15. As for why, I typically get into an argument with Transient everytime we start talking about Aster/Herakles vs HH-16. You can check the closed down Formidable thread to see what I mean.

So, I will just say that the advantage 054A holds mainly lies in the 2 type 730 CIWS over whatever FREMM has (it seemed nothing significant). And also, while AK-176m is not a better gun than Otobreda 76 mm gun, I think it might be slightly better in the air defence area due to its faster rate of fire. I don't want to get too deep into HH-16, but this is kind of interesting, it seems they are currently trialing a new MFR to replace SR-64 on 054A.
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2007/03/some-new-findings-from-today.html
That's why I say there will be some improvements on the current 054A by the time FREMM becomes available.
Ah ok your point is more on CIWS than on the SAM themselves.
Though I must say I remain very confident in our Strales/davide 76/62 as CIWS guns because, as you probably recall, they are equipped with guided ammunition (radio/GPS) ensuring the rounds have corrected trajectory to better intercept the incoming SSMs.

cheers
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
I agree with Contedicavour, the 76mm on Fremm is a very reliable weapons in anti-missile role, moreover French Fremms are going to be equipped with 2 Mistral missile sextuple launch pads in order to have both gun and missiles for close defence. It's sure better than a type 730.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I agree with Contedicavour, the 76mm on Fremm is a very reliable weapons in anti-missile role, moreover French Fremms are going to be equipped with 2 Mistral missile sextuple launch pads in order to have both gun and missiles for close defence. It's sure better than a type 730.
well, I guess we are going to have to disagree on AK-176m vs Otobreda 76 mm gun.

I personally haven't read anything about Mistral on FREMM, but I suppose we are not going to know exactly what each ship has in 5-10 years. As for Mistral vs type 730, well don't think type 730 is less capable just because it doesn't have missiles. In fact, PLAN has found type 730 to be better than Kashtan which combines missiles with 30 mm gun. Think about it this way, Kashtan is said to have a success rate of 96%. Yet, that's still not good enough for PLAN. And how many missiles do you think 12 Mistral with those tiny warhead can intercept?
 

aaaditya

New Member
hey guys,pakistani navy seems to be facing a unique problems due to pollution ,can anyone tell if the development ogf gwadar would reduce it,how far is gwadar from karachi.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/16/top10.htm

ISLAMABAD, March 15: Severe pollution in Karachi harbour, caused by untreated industrial affluent and municipal waste, is not only taking its toll on marine life and civilian population but also causing $1 billion worth of losses to Pakistan Navy (PN) every year.

All the navy platforms including surface ships, fleet tankers, mine hunters and missile boats berthed at Karachi’s upper harbour and PN Dockyard had been severely damaged by the seawater, the composition of which has changed for the worst due to unbridled pollution in recent years, Commander PN Rear Admiral Mehmood Ahmed Khan told the Senate Standing Committee on Defence here on Thursday.

He expressed fears that some of the vital PN assets would not be available to it at ‘crucial times’ if the low conductivity and increased chloride and sulphate in seawater continued to inflict damages.

He said Indian navy had the edge to move from east to west and south while the PN was mainly dependent on the Karachi harbour.

“This is indicative of losses. If we count on other variables, the losses can be in billions and billions of dollars,” Secretary Defence Tariq Wasim Ghazi said, expressing concerns that the pollution could damage the defence capability of not only the PN but the PAF as well.

Air Vice Marshall Rao Qamar Sulaiman said the failure of the Ministry of Environment as well as provincial and city governments to implement the Pakistan Environmental Protection Act, 1997 in letter and in spirit had converted Karachi into one of the most polluted cities of the region.

He said Karachi was a strategic target for the enemy due to its industrial and commercial importance. He feared that due to air pollution, the PAF could face sever difficulties in defending this vital city in times of wars.

He said due to solid waste, industrial affluent and illegal mushrooming of slaughter houses and poultry farms, the Karachi skyline was full of smoke and big birds. The PAF had lost 10 aircraft and three pilots since 1985 in some 3,500 accidents caused by birds, he said, adding that in financial terms, the air force suffered losses to the tune of $200 million due to damage to its aircraft.

Senators Dilawar Hussain and Prof Khurshid Ahmed described as ‘shameful’ and ‘horrible’ the air and water pollution in Karachi and their damages to the national defence capabilities, marine life and civilians.

The committee also formed a taskforce that would complete recommendations for checking environmental degradation in Karachi and its harbour. The taskforce will hold its meeting next week and complete recommendations within two months. Cases against the industries and authorities responsible for pollution in Karachi would also be filed by the PAF and the PN in environmental tribunals.

The committee and defence ministry asked for a complete damage assessment survey of the pollution in Karachi. It feared that the real picture could be even more gruesome and the damages beyond thinking.

Minister of State for Environment Malik Ameen Aslam Khan drew the attention of the committee towards a recent World Bank report that stated that every year the losses caused to Pakistan by pollution were equivalent to 3-5 per cent of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

“This is alarming for a country which has a GDP growth of just 7 per cent,” Mr Khan said, expressing resentment over the performance of the Pakistan Environment Protection Agency. He said the government was facing losses worth billions of dollars every year due to its inability to spend just millions of rupees for controlling pollution.

According to PN officials, the National Environmental Coordination Committee (NECC) had been formed in September 2001 after the abolition of the Marine Pollution Control Board (MPCB).
 

BilalK

New Member
According to Janes the Pakistan Navy is requesting (or will) 6 Oliver Hazard Perry Class (FFG-7) frigates from the U.S to "augment its fleet". I think these will replace the Type-21s and form the mainstay of the Navy until the F-22P, corvettes, etc, are commissioned.
 

ahussains

New Member
According to Janes the Pakistan Navy is requesting (or will) 6 Oliver Hazard Perry Class (FFG-7) frigates from the U.S to "augment its fleet". I think these will replace the Type-21s and form the mainstay of the Navy until the F-22P, corvettes, etc, are commissioned.
In how much time US will give all these 6 Ships to Pakistan and on what condtions. ?
 

contedicavour

New Member
The OHPs are very good hulls but with no SAMs or SSMs left they are oversized OPVs ;)
If the PN is interested in them they would need a refit and at the very least RAM and Harpoon...

cheers
 

BilalK

New Member
The OHPs are very good hulls but with no SAMs or SSMs left they are oversized OPVs ;)
If the PN is interested in them they would need a refit and at the very least RAM and Harpoon...

cheers
Indeed, at the very least the FFG-7 should be requested with Harpoon Block II, RAM and Mk.32 with Mk.46. It would be nice if we can get SM-1MR and 8-cell Mk.41 VLS for ESSM - highly unlikely though. IF they do release an DSCA article on this, then it would be interesting to see what PN requests. What the PN could get out of the FFG-7, i.e RAM, Mk.41, etc, would IMO suggest the level of American input we can expect on potential PN Milgem. According to Turkish press, the PN would negotiate with Turkey in April on the weapon systems and what not that would go on PN corvettes.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The only issue I see is financial : with a big % of the budget on the Agosta 90B SSKs and on the F22P, would the PN be able to pay for ESSM VLS and Harpoon II ? The US is probably willing to sell them but not give them for free, especially as US government help is mostly needed by the army in the anti-terrorist role on the NWFPs close to Afghanistan.

cheers
 

BilalK

New Member
The only issue I see is financial : with a big % of the budget on the Agosta 90B SSKs and on the F22P, would the PN be able to pay for ESSM VLS and Harpoon II ? The US is probably willing to sell them but not give them for free, especially as US government help is mostly needed by the army in the anti-terrorist role on the NWFPs close to Afghanistan.

cheers
Well the F-22P and Agosta-90B purchases were done using financial loans from the selling countries and paying them back in installments. In fact, most of Pakistan's military purchases are either through loans, aid or grant. In the past few years the government said that it would allocate money for purchases, and they did put a down payment on the Erieye AEW&C.

The military's defence budget does not include major acquisitions. The Australian OHP upgrade was around $200mn per ship? I do not think Standard II would be included in a Pakistani purchase, just the ESSM VLS, Harpoon II and Mk.32 would be needed. Also, it is possible that only a portion of the 6 OHPs would receive a major upgrade - such as Mk.41 and ESSM. The others could simply be sent out with something like RAM.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Well the F-22P and Agosta-90B purchases were done using financial loans from the selling countries and paying them back in installments. In fact, most of Pakistan's military purchases are either through loans, aid or grant. In the past few years the government said that it would allocate money for purchases, and they did put a down payment on the Erieye AEW&C.

The military's defence budget does not include major acquisitions. The Australian OHP upgrade was around $200mn per ship? I do not think Standard II would be included in a Pakistani purchase, just the ESSM VLS, Harpoon II and Mk.32 would be needed. Also, it is possible that only a portion of the 6 OHPs would receive a major upgrade - such as Mk.41 and ESSM. The others could simply be sent out with something like RAM.
Very interesting insight thanks.
I was also thinking that the US defence industry may be interested in stopping European competitors from obtaining an otherwise all too easy contract for Aster SAMs ...

cheers
 

BilalK

New Member
Very interesting insight thanks.
I was also thinking that the US defence industry may be interested in stopping European competitors from obtaining an otherwise all too easy contract for Aster SAMs ...

cheers
Is it possible to integrate the Aster 15 SAAM, Sylver A43 & associated systems on the OHP?
 

contedicavour

New Member
Is it possible to integrate the Aster 15 SAAM, Sylver A43 & associated systems on the OHP?
There's enough space for the Sylver VLS and for an Arabel type radar (like on the Saudi evolved Lafayette), though not for the larger Herakles or Empar.
Politically however there's not a chance in hell that the US government would send OHPs over for free (or almost) and tolerate to see them upgraded with competitors' weapons systems. Besides, it is a lot cheaper to install ESSM since all feasibility studies are done and completed.

cheers
 
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