Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

BilalK

New Member
Are you talking about the speculative FF-21? But if you really are thinking of the export version of LCS, I think that's just craziness. You are looking at 500 million for a unit (and I think that's a low estimate). PN doesn't have that kind of money. And then, there is the issue of what weapons US is willing to sell you.
Yes I was, but I did some research last night and from what I've found that the PN would just focus on FF-21 and not LCS - if reports are true at all. According to Forecast International back in 1997, the FF-21 was a stealth frigate designed for export. From what the Forecast article said, I think it would today be between Type-054A and the Formidable Class. The FF-21 was slated to be equipped with an 8-cell Mk.41 VLS; 8 Harpoon SSM; 2 triple Mk.32 torpedo tubes; one 21-cell RAM; 2 Phalanx Mk.15 CIWS; two 40mm cannons; one FMC 5 in L54 Mark 45 gun. So overall it is a good multi-mission platform.

Back then the unit cost of the FF-21 was expected to be around $400mn, and that killed its export hopes (reportedly) against the M-Class, MEKO 200, and used FFG-7 back in the 1990s. However today I think the unit cost may be lower. Firstly because the weapon systems are in widespread use on corvettes and retrofitting on old frigates/surface combatants. The FF-21 design looks kind of generic and the concept is in fairly extensive use around the world. IMO the unit cost could be capped - today - at $350mn per ship.

Link to the Forecast International article:
http://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/ws/ws11315.htm
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
There were two competitors:
The Northrop Grumman/Litton Ingalls International Frigate Program
The Newport News Shipbuilding International Frigate Program (FF-21)

The Ingalls design is 'based on' or extends the Israeli Saar 5 design. (sorry, bigger image vanished from internet, no longer available)
 
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tphuang

Super Moderator
Yes I was, but I did some research last night and from what I've found that the PN would just focus on FF-21 and not LCS - if reports are true at all. According to Forecast International back in 1997, the FF-21 was a stealth frigate designed for export. From what the Forecast article said, I think it would today be between Type-054A and the Formidable Class. The FF-21 was slated to be equipped with an 8-cell Mk.41 VLS; 8 Harpoon SSM; 2 triple Mk.32 torpedo tubes; one 21-cell RAM; 2 Phalanx Mk.15 CIWS; two 40mm cannons; one FMC 5 in L54 Mark 45 gun. So overall it is a good multi-mission platform.

Back then the unit cost of the FF-21 was expected to be around $400mn, and that killed its export hopes (reportedly) against the M-Class, MEKO 200, and used FFG-7 back in the 1990s. However today I think the unit cost may be lower. Firstly because the weapon systems are in widespread use on corvettes and retrofitting on old frigates/surface combatants. The FF-21 design looks kind of generic and the concept is in fairly extensive use around the world. IMO the unit cost could be capped - today - at $350mn per ship.

Link to the Forecast International article:
http://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/ws/ws11315.htm
no, that's not going to work. Just thinking about inflation alone, you are going to look at least $500 million. And then, it would have to achieve enough export orders to lower the costs. We know USN is not going to order it. The first batch of any design will always be the most expensive (if we include inflation).

And then we get to the biggest problem, do you really want a ship that nobody else operates?

Of course, if Pakistan can get US government to pay for it, then that's a different issue.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
no, that's not going to work. Just thinking about inflation alone, you are going to look at least $500 million. And then, it would have to achieve enough export orders to lower the costs. We know USN is not going to order it. The first batch of any design will always be the most expensive (if we include inflation).

And then we get to the biggest problem, do you really want a ship that nobody else operates?

Of course, if Pakistan can get US government to pay for it, then that's a different issue.
I agree with the figures given by BilalK. The Cost of LCS-3 the latest design was expected to be $220 Million but the numbers LM came up with is between 350 to 375 million dollars and not in $500 million range. That is a highly inflated number.
I think that USN may not accept the $350-375 million and get out of the contract.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I agree with the figures given by BilalK. The Cost of LCS-3 the latest design was expected to be $220 Million but the numbers LM came up with is between 350 to 375 million dollars and not in $500 million range. That is a highly inflated number.
I think that USN may not accept the $350-375 million and get out of the contract.
LCS-1 was originally expected to be 270 million, it went over 400 million and they have cancelled LCS-3 now until LockMart can get the cost down. This was all over the news today, you should've read it by now. So, just because USN wants a ship at a certain cost, doesn't mean it will get it at that cost.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
LCS-1 was originally expected to be 270 million, it went over 400 million and they have cancelled LCS-3 now until LockMart can get the cost down.
U.S. Navy Cancels LCS Contract

By CHRISTOPHER P. CAVAS, Defense News

The U.S. Navy on Thursday cancelled one of two new Littoral Combat Ships being built by Lockheed Martin.

Calling Lockheed’s best offer “unaffordable,” Rear Adm. Chuck Goddard, the Navy’s program executive officer for ships, said the service initiated a “termination of convenience,” on LCS 3, the second of two LCS ships that were to have been built by Lockheed.

The Navy was seeking to renegotiate the construction contract for the ship, awarded in June 2006, from a cost-plus agreement to a fixed-price incentive deal. Navy Secretary Donald Winter, following revelations that Lockheed’s first LCS was $130 million to $155 million over its planned $220 million budget, issued a stop-work order on the LCS 3 in January and lifted it in March pending a renegotiated contract meant to hold down further cost increases.

But Winter put a tight deadline on contract renegotiations and gave Lockheed until April 12 to at least reach a “meeting of the minds” on a new agreement.

“I believe both parties made a good faith effort to reach terms that more equitably balanced cost and risk,” Goddard told reporters on Thursday. “Despite our mutual efforts, we could not come to terms and conditions on a modified contract that was acceptable to both parties.”

The move is another blow to the Navy’s vaunted LCS program, which it has been eagerly promoting and pursuing for several years. Four LCS contracts have been awarded — including the one cancelled April 12 — but two more ships planned to be ordered this year have been put off while their construction funds are applied to cost overruns on the earlier ships.

The Navy plans to build a total of 55 LCS ships, meant to plug a war-fighting gap by operating in contested waters close to shore.

Cancellation of a ship after a construction contract has been awarded is a rare event for the Navy. Although officials could not confirm the last time it happened, construction of a prototype minesweeper, the Cardinal (MSH 1), was terminated in 1986 after the program ran into severe design and cost problems.

The Navy’s termination of the LCS 3 contract does not affect Lockheed’s first ship, USS Freedom (LCS 1), which is now under construction at Marinette Marine in Wisconsin.

The move is a disappointment for Bollinger Shipyards, the Louisiana-based shipbuilder that was preparing to begin construction of the cancelled ship. Under Lockheed’s teaming approach, Bollinger was to alternate in building LCS ships with Marinette Marine.

The Navy also will continue with construction of two General Dynamics LCS ships — LCS 2 and LCS 4 — being built to a different design, and, Goddard added, still plans to choose a single design to build from 2010 and beyond.

“It is vital that the Navy continue through first-of-class construction challenges to complete LCS 1 and General Dynamics’ LCS 2,” Goddard said in a prepared statement.

Goddard and Allison Stiller, deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for ship programs, told reporters the service “will continue to monitor General Dynamics’ performance on LCS 2 and 4. LCS 4 construction will continue as long as its costs remain defined and manageable. If GD experiences comparable growth, we will use a similar process to seek to restructure” the contract for the ship.

Goddard left open the door for Lockheed to remain in the LCS program beyond the first ship.

“We hope and expect that both Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics will compete for future LCS procurements,” he said.

Lockheed officials were clearly disappointed in the Navy’s decision.
“As a team of men and women who hold ourselves accountable for our actions, we are greatly disappointed by the cost growth experienced on the first LCS and by our inability to reach a satisfactory conclusion with our Navy customer on a path forward for the second ship,” Bob Stevens, Lockheed’s chairman, president and chief executive officer, said in a statement. “We committed to a course of action that was intended to break the long-standing cycle of first-in-class ship cost growth and, while achieving several important program objectives, did not meet that goal. Although we successfully maintained the ship’s schedule and improved on its design, cost growth also occurred.

“Our team is understandably frustrated that, having invested nearly three years of dedicated effort and significant corporate resources to bring LCS 1 to within 20 percent of completion, we will not have the opportunity to apply lessons learned to a second ship, see this program through to conclusion and deliver a superior capability to sailors.”

“We believe that our proposal was fully consistent with the Secretary’s stated desire to bring the benefits of increased competition to shipbuilding while holding the Navy’s industrial partners accountable for cost performance within their control,” Stevens added.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The recent news on uncontrolled cost inflation on LCS is the umpteenth time a programme's financials prove wrong (always on the wrong side ;) )
The PN should IMHO profit from all the cheap second hand ships available or soon to be available, upgrade them and not even think about wasting money on expensive new ships that are still rather prototypes.
After the OHPs there will soon be German F122s, French Leygues, Italian Maestrales... upgrade them with more modern AAW and it perfectly fits the PN's needs...

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
well ,what about destroyers,how many destroyers does pakistani navy intend to have?
Today's DDGs are sophisticated AAW platforms - the PN doesn't really need them since the main task is protecting their coastline and bases and hindering Indian Navy's operations. The Pakistani air force can provide air cover.

cheers
 

BilalK

New Member
Basically says that Pakistan is negotiating for 3 U-214 manufacturing packages from Germany at a cost of approx. 1.2bn Euro. The Federal German Government supports the deal and I guess thinks South Asia is not an area of tension. Israeli U-boats can apparently fire nuclear tipped cruise missiles, uncertain if Pakistan will go that route. If this deal is a success, it will apparently mark a long-term defence partnership between Germany and Pakistan.

21.04.07
U-boat-Deal with Pakistan contrived
German companies want to supply three superweapons, to Federal Government cling with 1.03 billion

A new, so far secret defense project becomes obvious by a paper of the Federal Department of Finance. This concerns the supply from submarines to Pakistan.

Berlin (lp holy). A German delivery consortium negotiates at present with the navy of Pakistan” about the construction and the supply from three material packages to the building of three submarines “. The Federal Government supports the project and occurs so again the principle for supplying no weapons to areas of tension.

” The quantity of orders for the three for covering requested boats amounts to altogether approximately 1.2 billion euro. The payment is financed during the delivery phase… to take place to a large extent, only a small part over a credit “, is called it in a classified material, which is present lp. In it 1.029 billion euro are noted as” maximum adhesion of the federation “.

To be supplied is the most modern, which gives it on the conventional submarine market. The gas cell technology makes the drive outside air independent, which immersion time compared with conventional systems extremely extended to locate the boats are with difficulty. Germany possesses so far only two of these 212 A-boats. Manufacturers are the Howaldtswerke Germans threw (HDW) and the North Sea works. Both belong to ThyssenKrupp navy of system.

Two of these means of attack are likewise exported to Israel and thus into a area of tension. Italy builds further two.

With order for Pakistan” the German exporter was shifted into the situation, current development successes in the technology of the submarine manufacturing to strengthen and secure on a long-term basis particularly in the gas cell technology. In addition the appropriate occupation effects come with the small and middle suppliers into completely Germany “, maintain the government, without occupying. The” chance is important on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term strategic partnership interested “.

Pakistan, a state, which has nuclear weapons and in addition in the urgent suspicion stands to support various groupings of terror affords at present an arms race particularly with neighbour and country possessing atomic weapons India. At present the Navy of Pakistan has six submarines of French construction, which with US” Harpoon “- cruise missiles are equipped. The boats for Israel are equipped with 533-mm-Torpedorohren, from which missiles with atomic Sprengkopf can be fired. Whether the Pakistan project is also so equipped, is unknown. During the supplies also in the boat are the USA and Great Britain with 19 per cent.

Otfried Nassauer, boss citizens of Berlin of the information center for transatlantic security, makes attentive to the long tradition of arms co-operation German of Pakistan. It regards the current project as” extremely dangerously, also, because Germany both opens Israel and Islamic coined/shaped Pakistan the possibility, in the entire Indian ocean to be militarily authorized to act “.

http://www.nd-online.de/artikel.asp?AID=108541&IDC=16
 

contedicavour

New Member
This confirms my suspicion that you can't sell at the same time similar weapons systems to Pakistan and India... France's DCN priorized the 6 Scorpene for India and thus Pakistan abandons its traditional supplier of submarines (Daphne, Agosta, Agosta 90B) for HDW who lost the tender for India's new 6 subs... So much for military logic (such as lowering maintenance costs by buying similar types of subs, etc)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
My toy is muuuuuuuch nicer than yours... :D

Business as usual.

That this might be the starting point of a defence-partnership between Pakistan and Germany is a little bit far fetched. It is just a deal. Or did the licenses for G3/MG3/MP5 also marked such a defence-partnership.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
This confirms my suspicion that you can't sell at the same time similar weapons systems to Pakistan and India... France's DCN priorized the 6 Scorpene for India and thus Pakistan abandons its traditional supplier of submarines (Daphne, Agosta, Agosta 90B) for HDW who lost the tender for India's new 6 subs... So much for military logic (such as lowering maintenance costs by buying similar types of subs, etc)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

cheers
Dont jump to conlusions yet. Its just a confirmation from German side that they are negotiating with Pakistan. France made confirmation at the end of the last year & they are still negotiating.

Pakistan doesnt really follow the policy that if India buys product from xyz country so we are no longer going to buy it from them - we'll go to the abc. Pakistan, in fact bought & has ordered few more Mi-17 helicopters from the India's traditional main weapons supplier, Russia.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Dont jump to conlusions yet. Its just a confirmation from German side that they are negotiating with Pakistan. France made confirmation at the end of the last year & they are still negotiating.

Pakistan doesnt really follow the policy that if India buys product from xyz country so we are no longer going to buy it from them - we'll go to the abc. Pakistan, in fact bought & has ordered few more Mi-17 helicopters from the India's traditional main weapons supplier, Russia.

Correct. According to a report in French Media, DCN has offered not only the Marlin but the Scorpions as well to Pakistan to compete against the Germans. We all know India buying the Scorpions.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Pakistan is really on a major buying spree. With in a short period of time we have heard about acquiring:

4 Miligen class corvettes
8 F-22p Frigates
6 Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigates

3-4 U-214
3 additional Marlins submarines (May be)

Pakistan Government has been making very quick decisions. PN will be transformed into a lethal deterrent in a very short period of time.
 

BilalK

New Member
Pakistan is really on a major buying spree. With in a short period of time we have heard about acquiring:

4 Miligen class corvettes
8 F-22p Frigates
6 Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigates

3-4 U-214
3 additional Marlins submarines (May be)

Pakistan Government has been making very quick decisions. PN will be transformed into a lethal deterrent in a very short period of time.
H Khan confirmed that the order for 4 additional F-22P is false - thus far, it's only an order for 4. However the PN is looking for 4 new frigates - I think they would be of a fairly advanced type.
 

ahussains

New Member
H Khan confirmed that the order for 4 additional F-22P is false - thus far, it's only an order for 4. However the PN is looking for 4 new frigates - I think they would be of a fairly advanced type.
The Shopping List is good and too big can any one let me know in how much time all these things come to Pakistan and what is the over all budget of these things ...?

Comparing Agusta90B(MESMA ) with U-214 which one is much better...
 

Rich

Member
Pakistan is really on a major buying spree. With in a short period of time we have heard about acquiring:

4 Miligen class corvettes
8 F-22p Frigates
6 Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigates

3-4 U-214
3 additional Marlins submarines (May be)

Pakistan Government has been making very quick decisions. PN will be transformed into a lethal deterrent in a very short period of time.
Almost all of Pakistans imports are by sea including the all important oil imports, "80% of its crude oil requirements". They also had a bad time in 1971 with India's sea blockade and they sure dont want that to happen again. If you want to find the roots of this current spending spree then read about the 1971 sea blockade by the IN.

None of these decisions have been quick, I believe. They have been in the making for 36 years.
 

ahussains

New Member
The U-214 is coming with the MESMA & is better than Agosta-90B. Even without MESMA, I would term U-214 much better.
Can you please support your quote with some technical information... So far France is a good supplier of Naval and other euipments from many years which types of shurity Germans give ??
 

contedicavour

New Member
Pakistan is really on a major buying spree. With in a short period of time we have heard about acquiring:

4 Miligen class corvettes
8 F-22p Frigates
6 Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigates

3-4 U-214
3 additional Marlins submarines (May be)

Pakistan Government has been making very quick decisions. PN will be transformed into a lethal deterrent in a very short period of time.
If I focus on surface naval assets : the 6 Amazons and the 1-2 remaining Leanders need urgent replacement. The F22P are likely to be delivered around 2009-2011, and the Milgem corvette programme is also likely to deliver after 2010. So buying second hand OHPs (remember they are FFs right now with no missiles left aboard) would only temporarily plug a hole but would not constitute a force increase vs today.

cheers
 
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