F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

[phreeky]

One of the biggest problems was finding & removing all the too too clever bits of code intelligent idiots had written to get round the end of the century not being a leap year, when it was, because it was divisible by 400. Grrrrr! But that wouldn't have gone wrong until February 29th.

huh? You mean "year%4" wasn't the usual check? Or some people didn't realise the year 2000 was actually a leap year?

Anyway this problem with the F22 does seem to indicate a severe lack of testing in my view. Not trying the full range or possible inputs by the sounds of things. Of course without knowing the actual problem, which we maybe never will, hard to say anymore than that.

 

[swerve]

huh? You mean "year%4" wasn't the usual check? Or some people didn't realise the year 2000 was actually a leap year?....

The latter. Some idiots knew that 1900 wasn't a leap year, & thought that the rule is "year divisible by 4 is a leap year, except where it's divisible by 100". So they added a check for year divisible by 100, not realising that was unnecessary until 2100. They didn't know the full version of the rule, & that years divisible by 400 are leap years.

But writing your own checks is stupid in any case. That's what built-in routines are for. They've already been tested. Though that doesn't always work for dates in the past. I was annoyed to discover years ago that the unix cal routine doesn't give Gregorian dates prior to the British switch to the Gregorian calendar in the 1750s, but corrects for the calendar change - wrongly! Same as the leap year mistake, it applies half a correction, allowing for the missing 11 days, but not for the change in year start & end day. So it's wrong for both calendars. Doh!

Never mind. All the millennium stuff is over now. And we're digressing terribly.

 

[Turk]

I read in yhe book that two F-22s are capable of destroy 8 F-16 in less than 15 minutes :shudder

 

[Aussie Digger]

I read in yhe book that two F-22s are capable of destroy 8 F-16 in less than 15 minutes :shudder

Hey Turk, welcome to the threads, but I've noticed you've been posting a lot of "one liners" that don't contribute anything much to the threads. This post is a perfect example.

Try and explain what you mean a bit better. Which book did you read this in? Under what circumstances were 2x F-22's engaging 8x F-16's? Why is 15 minutes relevant?

Contributing actively to the discussions is welcomed. Please try to be constructive and contribute in a meaningful way rather than just posting off hand comments. Okay?

Cheers

AD.

 

[Turk]

For example F-22 has got some serious radar systems they have got stealth abilities.F-22 is only 5th generation plane in the world and they are rormidable warplanes.These planes has got some unique properties.

I said 2xF-22 can beat 8xF-16

F-22 pilots said in the magazine they have got really serious manoeuvre capability and this capabilities better than F-16 that's why thay can fight F-16s and they can kill all of them in less than 15 minutes.

 

[Turk]

Do you know where is the F-22s bases ?

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Do you know where is the F-22s bases ?

They've been deployed to Hickham AFB, Okinawa, Tyndall AFB and Langley AFB so far.

Try to ease up on the one-liners.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Actually....

1.
--- 3999 EMD
--- 4000 EMD
AF-91-001 4001 EMD ED 411FLTS Block I 98/02/
AF-91-002 4002 EMD ED 411FLTS Block I
AF-91-003 4003 EMD ED 411FLTS Block II
AF-91-004 4004 EMD ED 411FLTS Block II
AF-91-005 4005 EMD ED→FF 411FLTS Block II 411FLTS→27FS
AF-91-006 4006 EMD ED 411FLTS Block III 411FLTS
AF-91-007 4007 EMD ED 411FLTS Block III 411FLTS
AF-91-008 4008 EMD ED 411FLTS Block III 411FLTS
AF-91-009 4009 EMD ED 411FLTS Block III 411FLTS 　　

2.
AF-99-010 4010 PRTV OT 422TES Block IV Nellis 53TEG
AF-99-011 4011 PRTV OT 422TES Block IV Nellis AFB 　　

AF-00-012 4012 PRTV/LOT1 OT 422TES Nellis AFB 　
AF-00-013 4013 PRTV/LOT1 OT 422TES Nellis AFB
AF-00-014 4014 PRTV/LOT1 OT 422TES 2004.12
AF-00-015 4015 PRTV/LOT1 OT 422TES
AF-00-016 4016 PRTV/LOT1 OT 422TES AWFC Marking
AF-00-017 4017 PRTV/LOT1 OT 422TES Nellis AFB

3. LOT 1
AF-01-018 4018 TY 43FS Block10 03/09/26
AF-01-019 4019 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
AF-01-020 4020 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
AF-01-021 4021 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
4022 Block10
4023 Block10
AF-01-024 4024 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
AF-01-025 4025 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
4026 Block10
4027 Block10 　　

4. LOT 2
AF-02-028 4028 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
AF-02-029 4029 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
4030 Block10
AF-02-031 4031 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
AF-02-032 4032 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
4033 Block10
4034 Block10
4035 Block10
4036 Block10
AF-02-037 4037 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
4038 Block10
AF-02-039 4039 TY 43FS Block10 Tyndall AFB
4040 Block10 　　

5. LOT 3 - Langley AFB- 21
AF-03-041 4041 FF 27FS Block10 1st FW Marking
AF-03-042 4042 FF 27FS Block10 05/05/12
AF-03-043 4043 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-044 4044 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-045 4045 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-046 4046 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-047 4047 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-048 4048 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-049 4049 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-050 4050 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-051 4051 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-052 4052 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-053 4053 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-054 4054 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-055 4055 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-056 4056 FF 27FS Block10
AF-03-057 4057 FF 27FS Block10 05/12/20
AF-03-058 4058 FF 27FS Block10 05/12/20
4059 Block10 05/12/20
AF-03-060 4060 FF 27FS Block10 06/04/07
AF-03-061 4061 FF 27FS Block10 06/01/24 　　

6. LOT 4 AFB 22
AF-04-062 4062 FF 94FS Block10 06/03/03
AF-04-063 4063 FF 94FS Block10 06/03/03
AF-04-064 4064 FF 94FS Block10 06/03/29
AF-04-065 4065 FF 27FS Block10 06/03/24
AF-04-066 4066 FF 94FS Block10
AF-04-067 4067 FF 94FS Block10
AF-04-068 4068 FF 94FS Block10
AF-04-069 4069 FF 94FS Block10
AF-04-070 4070 FF 94FS Block10
4071 Block10
4072 Block10
AF-04-073 4073 FF 94FS Block10
4074 Block10
AF-04-075 4075 FF 94FS Block10
4076 Block10
4077 Block10
4078 Block10
4079 Block10
AF-04-080 4080 FF 94FS Block10
4081 Block10
AF-04-082 4082 FF 94FS Block10
AF-04-083 4083 FF 94FS Block10

7. LOT 5
AF-05-084 4084 FF 94FS Block20 Langley AFB
AF-05-085 4085 FF 94FS Block20 Langley AFB
4086 Block20
AF-05-087 4087 AK 90FS Block20 Elmendorf AFB, Alaska
4088 Block20
4089 Block20
4090 Block20
AF-05-091 4091 AK 90FS Block20
4092 Block20
4093 Block20
4094 Block20
4095 Block20
4096 Block20
4097 Block20
4098 Block20
4099 Block20
4100 Block20
4101 Block20
4102 Block20
4103 Block20
4104 Block20
4105 Block20
4106 Block20
4107 Block20 　　
4108 Block30

8. LOT 8
4109 Block30
4110 Block30
4111 Block30

 

[Maverick65]

Here 5 mins & Wow

China is 4,000 klms from Australia. Why are we even talking about China? I'm sorry if our friends down under get insulted by our not selling the most revolutionary airplane we ever made but keep it real, OK?



I didn't know any of these nations could threaten Australia? Should we have sent the Pacific fleet to protect the Netherlands in 1958 too? Konfrontasi? I cant believe you'd even mention that? East Timor?? How in hell was Australia threatened there? We dont send aircraft carriers to every failed Euro-empire bush war.

This is ridiculous and is turning into another "waaa-waaa-waaa We want F-22s" thread.

The reason we arent selling the thing is because we dont want anyone stealing the technology behind it. AND we dont want anyone having as ggod a fighter as we do. Live with it! Also you are fighting the GWOT for America. Your fighting it for Australia.

Ok guys,

Brand new here and an Aussie and over 40 and an ex-serviceman so guess this won't get posted completely if at all & couldn't care less 2 be honest.

Seriously I am always amused when kids come up with comments like the above quote. Obviously NO military service, obviously BELIEVES everything the USA has to spit out and more importantly has absolutely NO conecpt on the lessons taught by history even if from a purely military standpoint.

That the Yanks won't sell Australia Raptor is a sticking point, especially considering our joining in with nearly all of their dirty little wars since WW2. We obviously aren't THAT much of an ally, but what's new, we're talking about the same nation that has run roughshod over nationalist movements everywhere (providing they're communist backed) or cheered on psychotic fascists who are doing the same thing (Saddam? Ring a bell, US?)

As to whether we in Australia need some overpriced lemon like JSF or something ridiculously over tech like Raptor isn't the point. Some will agree here, those that don't... two words and the second is off!

Simply put, Australia is a Western oriented white nation (or at least it pretends to be) surrounded by either Muslim Asians (ie Indonesia, who also field a rather large army, BTW) or non-aligned Asians (ie countries who have forsaken their religion in the name of progress). In this arena, we have quite a lot of natural resources and a very small military. Any who were serving members of the Australian military in the 80s (ie myself) would quite easily remember that Indonesia was our greatest threat. It seems given the situation in East Timor, Bali and the region in general that this assumption still remains true.

Who trained the militias who were quite happily wandering around East Timor?? RPKAD or the Indo special forces, the same unit responsible for the initial invasion in '75 and quite possibly for the execution of the Australian journalists during that time.

Amrosi and the other psychos that would blow apart their own countrymen in an effort to kill Australian holiday makers come from where again??? O that's right, Indonesia.... seems to be a pattern forming here.

Name the country that will quite happily take our aid in times of natural disaster but not want our troops in peacekeeping roles in areas that said country has influence... You guessed it... Indonesia.

Rich, don't kno who you are, or where u are but you are obviously no student of history.

Kindest regards,

John

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Sorry, I suppose 100:1 sounds a bit ridiculous that would mean the USAF would actually loose an F-22 in combat. The numbers posted by the USAF itself is 108:0 and 140:0.


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/JSFM06196.xml

In a thread a few months back the question was asked on why Indian pilots were scoring such impressive kill ratio's against USAF and other western oponants with Mig 29's in exersises.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5730

In this thread the notion that the Indian's remarkable results was atributed to the ROE for the exercise being skewed in the IAF's favor in order to influence civilian decision makers on the need for 5th generation aircraft, and that this was usual occurance in exercises such as red flag. So wouldn't it be logical to assume that the kill ratio claimed by the F22 could be attributed to the same thing? I realise that the F22 is a remarkable aircraft, and will be the suprime air superiority platform for the forseable future. But are these exersises realy an accurate judge of the aircraft's capabilities?

 

[rjmaz1]

So wouldn't it be logical to assume that the kill ratio claimed by the F22 could be attributed to the same thing?

Possibly, however the F-15 has scored 50 REAL kills with zero losses against aircraft that are at most 1 generation behind. Some Mig-29's were shot down.

The F-22 now provides an even bigger lead over the enemy. If the F-15 could acheive a 50:0 kill ratio 10 years ago then the F-22 can score a 50:0 kill ratio now.

I suppose none of these kills have been against a well train enemy with support by AWAC's..

 

[Rich]

Ok guys,

Brand new here and an Aussie and over 40 and an ex-serviceman so guess this won't get posted completely if at all & couldn't care less 2 be honest.

Seriously I am always amused when kids come up with comments like the above quote. Obviously NO military service, obviously BELIEVES everything the USA has to spit out and more importantly has absolutely NO conecpt on the lessons taught by history even if from a purely military standpoint.

That the Yanks won't sell Australia Raptor is a sticking point, especially considering our joining in with nearly all of their dirty little wars since WW2. We obviously aren't THAT much of an ally, but what's new, we're talking about the same nation that has run roughshod over nationalist movements everywhere (providing they're communist backed) or cheered on psychotic fascists who are doing the same thing (Saddam? Ring a bell, US?)

So what exactly is your point? That we should sell you the Raptor because weve enslaved the world?

As to whether we in Australia need some overpriced lemon like JSF or something ridiculously over tech like Raptor isn't the point. Some will agree here, those that don't... two words and the second is off!

Simply put, Australia is a Western oriented white nation (or at least it pretends to be) surrounded by either Muslim Asians (ie Indonesia, who also field a rather large army, BTW) or non-aligned Asians (ie countries who have forsaken their religion in the name of progress). In this arena, we have quite a lot of natural resources and a very small military. Any who were serving members of the Australian military in the 80s (ie myself) would quite easily remember that Indonesia was our greatest threat. It seems given the situation in East Timor, Bali and the region in general that this assumption still remains true.

Who trained the militias who were quite happily wandering around East Timor?? RPKAD or the Indo special forces, the same unit responsible for the initial invasion in '75 and quite possibly for the execution of the Australian journalists during that time.

Amrosi and the other psychos that would blow apart their own countrymen in an effort to kill Australian holiday makers come from where again??? O that's right, Indonesia.... seems to be a pattern forming here.

Name the country that will quite happily take our aid in times of natural disaster but not want our troops in peacekeeping roles in areas that said country has influence... You guessed it... Indonesia.

Rich, don't kno who you are, or where u are but you are obviously no student of history.

Kindest regards,

John

Kid I got no idea what your talking about. What does any of that have to do with aircraft? If your all that unhappy with Americans then kick us out and go your own way. Maybe buy Russian or French aircraft.

Even better, try making this post of your one paragraph. Maybe condensing it would allow me to figure out what in hell you mean.

As to whether we in Australia need some overpriced lemon like JSF or something ridiculously over tech like Raptor isn't the point.

Were all waiting patiently for you to tell us what "the point" is. And use a spell checker.

Here are the exact accusatory statements you made which were followed by no supportive material.

Seriously I am always amused when kids come up with comments like the above quote. Obviously NO military service, obviously BELIEVES everything the USA has to spit out and more importantly has absolutely NO conecpt on the lessons taught by history even if from a purely military standpoint.

Funny, but your brand new here right?

we're talking about the same nation that has run roughshod over nationalist movements everywhere (providing they're communist backed) or cheered on psychotic fascists who are doing the same thing (Saddam? Ring a bell, US?)

Like who? And the Australians were even more fearful of communists then we were.

As to whether we in Australia need some overpriced lemon like JSF or something ridiculously over tech like Raptor isn't the point.

So what about the F-35 is a Lemon?

Rich, don't kno who you are, or where u are but you are obviously no student of history.

Well, at least Ive been here awhile. I think I know enough about you to classify you as a Troll. And I doubt you'll be staying long.

 

[eckherl]

All I would like to say is that Australia has alway`s been there for my country and they have one of the best armed forces that are out there.

If they have a interest in the F-22 then my country should give it to them.

 

[Rich]

All I would like to say is that Australia has alway`s been there for my country and they have one of the best armed forces that are out there.

If they have a interest in the F-22 then my country should give it to them.

Like most Yanks, if not all, I am quite fond of the Aussies. Yes I might bust some chops here when I hear from a Yank bashing, irrational one. But I think the bottom line is our relationship is probably one of histories greatest alliances.

Also, the fact is, the avionics, code, and radar on that airplane is absolutly vital to our defense. To lose any of it would be a disaster for us and everyone allied with us. Once we sold it to one country how could we say "no" to others? Where would it end?

And the entire issue is a non-issue anyway. The Aussie air generals themselves have said they neither need nor want the airplane. It would seem the issue is just another exuse to bash Yanks on the Internet and I'm suspect of the origins of the entire row to begin with.

And now we have a troll calling the F-35 a "Lemon". This entire thread has turned irrational and I'm going to take a break from it.

 

[Magoo]

And the entire issue is a non-issue anyway. The Aussie air generals themselves have said they neither need nor want the airplane.

...only because their political masters have told them to say it to save losing face about not being allowed to have it. Truth be known, there are many within the RAAF who would love to have the F-22.

The "I didn't want it anyway" tactic is on often used by my 8 year old when her 10 year old brother wont let he play with his toys!

Geesh

Magoo

 

[Rich]

...only because their political masters have told them to say it to save losing face about not being allowed to have it. Truth be known, there are many within the RAAF who would love to have the F-22.

The "I didn't want it anyway" tactic is on often used by my 8 year old when her 10 year old brother wont let he play with his toys!

Geesh

Magoo

As is the "I want the big shiney one" even if the 8yo doesnt need it. "Nyaaa, Nyaaa, Nyaaa", "you cant have it".:

 

[Ryttare]

It's not a matter of trust really. Remember USAF are not allowed to buy more than 183 Raptors. That's not because they can't afford more, but because they have to use their money to buy F-35's.

USAF buying many JSF is the only way to keep price down so they are competetive on the international market. The sales of arms is an integrated part of US foreign and security policy as it's less likely that they who buy weapons from America will use it against them.

To then let Australia buy F-22's instead of F-35's would not be accepted by the USAF generals that has to put up with a huge number of JSF instead of the Raptors they really want.

 

[Maverick65]

Back Again

Rich,

For starters, I'm 42 years old, so unless your in your 60s, 'Kid' just isn't an option.

My Quote
As to whether we in Australia need some overpriced lemon like JSF or something ridiculously over tech like Raptor isn't the point.

Your Reply
Were all waiting patiently for you to tell us what "the point" is. And use a spell checker.

This little gem... what is the actual failing in that statement of mine. I admit that there was a misspelt word earlier and unfortunately, your own command of the english languge isn't to sh@t hot either (Were all waiting...?, last time I checked it would have been spelt We're all waiting.) Looks like you've been outspelt by a "Troll"... nice, really mature of you.

Your thoughts regarding the RAAF's interest are quite plainly out of date. Our political leaders who like most political ppl are quite moronic will tow the company line about how we don't need it, but a recent article concerning Australia's defence interests quoted some senior RAAF officers as wanting the F-22 in preference to the Super Hornet or JSF.

My point (Oh i'm sorry, i forgot youngsters haven't got a wonderful attention span) is simply that the US have refused Raptor sales to Australia when they are in negotiations with Japan regarding this very same aircraft. Japan, who is a stones throw away from the PRC. Though next time Uncle decides to embroil himself in another of his dirty little wars, you can guarantee that he'll be expecting the Aussies to play.

Regards (to the rest of the Board, Rich... well, you get the point)

Maverick

 

[Tasman]

Rich,

For starters, I'm 42 years old, so unless your in your 60s, 'Kid' just isn't an option.

My Quote
As to whether we in Australia need some overpriced lemon like JSF or something ridiculously over tech like Raptor isn't the point.

Your Reply
Were all waiting patiently for you to tell us what "the point" is. And use a spell checker.

This little gem... what is the actual failing in that statement of mine. I admit that there was a misspelt word earlier and unfortunately, your own command of the english languge isn't to sh@t hot either (Were all waiting...?, last time I checked it would have been spelt We're all waiting.) Looks like you've been outspelt by a "Troll"... nice, really mature of you.

Your thoughts regarding the RAAF's interest are quite plainly out of date. Our political leaders who like most political ppl are quite moronic will tow the company line about how we don't need it, but a recent article concerning Australia's defence interests quoted some senior RAAF officers as wanting the F-22 in preference to the Super Hornet or JSF.

My point (Oh i'm sorry, i forgot youngsters haven't got a wonderful attention span) is simply that the US have refused Raptor sales to Australia when they are in negotiations with Japan regarding this very same aircraft. Japan, who is a stones throw away from the PRC. Though next time Uncle decides to embroil himself in another of his dirty little wars, you can guarantee that he'll be expecting the Aussies to play.

Regards (to the rest of the Board, Rich... well, you get the point)

Maverick

Welcome to the forum Maverick65.

With all due respect, you were the one who used the word 'kids' to describe posters on this board. When I first read your post I was a bit offended by that. I couldn't work out if you were referring to Rich, who, by the way, is not a kid but is older than you, or to others like me (also, alas, no longer a kid!). Many members are certainly not 'kids' or 'youngsters' and for those who are, I think a bit of encouragement is a lot more helpful than a 'put down'. Some of the younger writers can certainly benefit from being steered in the right direction and most appreciate helpful suggestions. I have no problems with being told by a member that they disagree with me and many do. But telling someone in your first post that they can '... off' if they disagree with your thoughts is hardly helpful.

Re the F-22, it is no doubt true, as Magoo has said, that some senior RAAF officers would prefer the F-22 to the F-35 or FA-18F. For air dominance who wouldn't? Personally, I would love to the F-22 equip at least a part of the air combat force. The fact remains, however, that the senior hierarchy of the RAAF has consistently stated, and is still stating (as quoted elsewhere in this and other threads), that the F-35 is its preferred choice. This is based on its versatility and cost, when compared with the F-22. Whilst the official line lists versatility as the main point favouring the F-35, I suspect cost is really the biggest concern.

I would also be interested in any evidence that you may have that the USA is negotiating with Japan to sell them the F-22. I accept there has been speculation but I haven't yet found any confirmation. If that is the case then I will join the group of people feeling annoyed by any refusal to sell it to Australia. I guess we still need to take into account, though, that there has been no official request from Australia and no suggestion of even an unofficial approach, but we will probably have to wait 30 years for the public release of cabinet documents to know that.

Cheers

 

[Bluey262]

Hey Guys, just a quick opinion on the F-22 being sold to Japan. I too have heard "the speculation", and I wonder, wasn't it a Japanese company, 'Toshiba', that sold the technology for silent submarine propellers to the Russians. I can see how people would be a little annoyed at the F-22s being available to someone who has a record of selling secrets to ‘the enemy’, but it not being available to a true friend that has ALWAYS gone off to war with the US, no matter where in the world it is.