radiosilence
jints
P.A.F thanks for the link. What ever happen to deal for the Elli-class(Kortenear) frigates from Greece?
Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions
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contedicavour
New Member
I doubt any Kortenaers will be sold before Greece signs for new FFGs of its own (with FREMMs , French or Italian, in pole position). Greece has already lost without replacement the CF Adams ex US DDGs and the Knox are being deleted. Greece relies on 4 Hydra and 10 Kortenaer, I doubt it will go below 14 main surface ships.
cheers
radiosilence
jints
6 of the 10 Elli-class frigates will be going thru midlife modernization. The other 4 was reportedly sold to the PN.
link
contedicavour
New Member
I'm aware of that announcement. My point is that nothing will materialize until the Greek Navy is sure it can replace the 4 unmodernized Elli/Kortenaer with new ships. Expect an order before end 2007, deliveries 2011-2015 => no sale to Pakistan until 2010 at best.
cheers
radiosilence
jints
The sale was announced and delivery was expected to begin in the latter part of 2006.
Wrong!!! according to wikipedia, the four will be commissioned into the pakistani navy at the end of 2007. have a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Navy
Four used S-Class frigates were bought from Greece, the HS Bouboulina (F-463), HS Kanaris (F-464), HS Nikiforos Fokas (F-466) and the HS Themistoklis (F-465). They will be commissioned into the Navy by the end of 2007. The S-Class has a displacement of nearly 3800 tons and surpasses the PN's Type-21 in regards to performance, weapons and systems. It is likely that the Pakistan Navy S-Class frigates will go through a similar upgrade as their Greek counterparts.
According to Jane's IDEAS2004 interview with former Pakistan Navy Chief ex-Admiral Kariumullah another four or so new frigates will be acquired; either a larger and improved F-22P or entirely new model like the Type-054. Options for this new class also include the German MEKO A-200 and MEKO-D (Delta) series.
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They will sure beef up our navy:ar15
contedicavour
New Member
Are you sure that Greece's decision is firm and definitive ? Back then (at the time of the announcement) the order for 4 new FFGs for the Greek Navy was considered only a matter of weeks away. It still hasn't materialized...Wrong!!! according to wikipedia, the four will be commissioned into the pakistani navy at the end of 2007. have a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Navy
Four used S-Class frigates were bought from Greece, the HS Bouboulina (F-463), HS Kanaris (F-464), HS Nikiforos Fokas (F-466) and the HS Themistoklis (F-465). They will be commissioned into the Navy by the end of 2007. The S-Class has a displacement of nearly 3800 tons and surpasses the PN's Type-21 in regards to performance, weapons and systems. It is likely that the Pakistan Navy S-Class frigates will go through a similar upgrade as their Greek counterparts.
According to Jane's IDEAS2004 interview with former Pakistan Navy Chief ex-Admiral Kariumullah another four or so new frigates will be acquired; either a larger and improved F-22P or entirely new model like the Type-054. Options for this new class also include the German MEKO A-200 and MEKO-D (Delta) series.
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They will sure beef up our navy:ar15
By the way, same thing for the 4 older Type 209 SSKs, supposedly to be sold to Egypt. No news since.
cheers
I'm pretty sure that all is going accourding to plan. As said by you previously greece will want to get more frigates. the greek navy is upgrading the remaining S-class frigates And note four of the others are not being upgraded. this upgrading will definately boost it's performance. i don't think greece will have any problem purchasing new frigates from fellow europeans if needed. I read somewhere that they will be commissioning another sub in mid-2007 and many more acquisions are yet to come. So i think that there is evidence that 4 S-class frigates will be going soon. most likely at the end of 2007 as mentioned in wikipedia.
Cheers.
radiosilence
jints
According to the article(Daily Times,Tuesday, May 16, 2006) ,Wrong!!! according to wikipedia, the four will be commissioned into the pakistani navy at the end of 2007. have a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Navy
Maybe the reporter got it wrong.
link
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Well it definately got it wrong because it's 2007 now.
in a way it makes sense that we get them at the end of 2007 because then it gives the greek navy to adjust how required.contedicavour
New Member
Yes Greece can easily purchase new FFGs from fellow Europeans, but it will take at least 5 years before the first one enters service. Let's say 10 before all 4 would enter service. In the meanwhile the Greek Navy would have to accept a reduction in main surface unit strength from a few years' ago 20 (10 Elli, 3 CF Adams, 4 Hydra, 3 Knox) to 10 (6 Elli and 4 Hydra) ??? How many navies can comfortably accept a fleet strength reduction of 50% ? Hence my doubts about the whole story.I'm pretty sure that all is going accourding to plan. As said by you previously greece will want to get more frigates. the greek navy is upgrading the remaining S-class frigates And note four of the others are not being upgraded. this upgrading will definately boost it's performance. i don't think greece will have any problem purchasing new frigates from fellow europeans if needed. I read somewhere that they will be commissioning another sub in mid-2007 and many more acquisions are yet to come. So i think that there is evidence that 4 S-class frigates will be going soon. most likely at the end of 2007 as mentioned in wikipedia.
Cheers.
cheers
According to Turkish Press, the Pakistan Navy is interested in procuring 4 Milgem class corvettes from Turkey - of which 3 Pakistan wants built in Karachi. Here is the link to the news report and below is a translation courtesy of "El Turco" from Network54.
I guess the PN was merely interested in the Greek S-Class, but favoured the Turkish Milgem.
The Milgem is a 2000-ton corvette, here are its specs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgem
The Pakistan Navy also plans to procure a total of 8 MRTP-33 fast attack missile boats from Turkey. On top of this, the PN will likely announce its 3 SSK requirement - which is between U-214 and Marlin. The only things that remain are the 4 new-built frigates in the 3500+ ton displacement range, Seaking Mk45 replacements, and acquisition of a solid air defence system like PAAMS or something.
Interestingly enough, Janes Defence Weekly reported last year that the Pakistan Navy dropped plans to acquire 4 used frigates, and would instead buy 4 new corvettes. Here's the link to the JDW article.
I guess the PN was merely interested in the Greek S-Class, but favoured the Turkish Milgem.
The Milgem is a 2000-ton corvette, here are its specs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgem
The Pakistan Navy also plans to procure a total of 8 MRTP-33 fast attack missile boats from Turkey. On top of this, the PN will likely announce its 3 SSK requirement - which is between U-214 and Marlin. The only things that remain are the 4 new-built frigates in the 3500+ ton displacement range, Seaking Mk45 replacements, and acquisition of a solid air defence system like PAAMS or something.
contedicavour
New Member
Thks a lot for the very interesting article.
The Kortenaer deal is out as I had suspected, but there are plenty of other interesting elements I wasn't aware of.
First of all, the modified Jangwei FFGs building for the PN will have the Chinese version of Crotale, then Harpoons and Phalanx could be procured... and then of course the news you mention on Milgem corvettes.
Btw it seems reasonable to me that the PN should focus on powerful corvettes to protect its coastline rather then big FFG or DDG to try to counter the Indian Navy in the open ocean. SSKs could operate farther away from shore to disrupt Indian naval task forces.
Besides, with new equipment the PN could even become useful in overseas UN missions, just like the Pakistani army which has a long tradition of UN deployments. Much more useful for the rest of the world than assets intended purely for confrontation with India.
cheers
It seems the PN may standardize its weapon-system on most of its ships. There have been reports from IDEAS 2006 Karachi that Pakistan wants new SAM systems and is looking towards MBDA, Denel and Diehl BGT. It is likely (IMO) that the PN's surface ships would standardize on one of Aster 15 or Umkhonto with possibility of RAM as an alternative or add on. For surface-to-surface missiles, I think Harpoon Block II was chosen as standard missile with Exocet MM40 Block III as a back-up or addition. Would be cool if PN got the Milas + MU-90 as well.
PN's next FFG requirement is for 4 new-built ships above the 3500 ton displacement mark. I expect options include the MEKO D, FREMM and Type-054A - the former two were displayed in Karachi during IDEAS 2006.
I really doubt it. Since you are not building your own ships, what goes on on these ships are really dependent on the country you are purchasing them from. And I don't think Harpoon block 2 was chosen at all. You just got some to equip your fleet of P-3Cs and possibly F-16s.
corvettes are more usefull as independent hunters or pack hunters( lets say a group of 4 corvettes acting independently of the rest of the fleet).i believe that because of their multirole capabilities they would be operationally stagnated if used in the coastal defence roles,unless if they are specially designed for that role.
contedicavour
New Member
I'd say it depends who is your opponent. Given the strength of the Indian Navy, sending the corvettes on an independent mission behind enemy lines is suicidal. They would be wiped out by aerial, naval or submarine attacks.
They could be very useful closer to shore under land based air cover since they might deter enemy ships from coming too close.
I do see though a very useful role in UN overseas missions for independent patrol operations as they would be sufficiently armed to impose law and order and destroy smaller naval assets such as FAC(M)s.
cheers
If I remember right the Kortenaer was an old Euro-design optomized for ASW, right? And fast? And big for a corvette? OK, I found it. The thing was almost 4,000 tons, with two choppers, so why even call it a corvette?
A nice design, with a useful weapons package. You can do an awful lot with 4,000 tons nowadays, heck 2,000 tons. The Turk Milgem looks like a dream machine for them for the straights, black sea, and Island hopping within range of their land based air cover. Its even armed and radar'd enough to escort amphib resources.
VLS would be a lovely touch. This design is impressive.
A nice design, with a useful weapons package. You can do an awful lot with 4,000 tons nowadays, heck 2,000 tons. The Turk Milgem looks like a dream machine for them for the straights, black sea, and Island hopping within range of their land based air cover. Its even armed and radar'd enough to escort amphib resources.
VLS would be a lovely touch. This design is impressive.
contedicavour
New Member
The Kortenaers are big FFGs allright, no corvettes.
Though since the deal for the Kortenaer/Ellis is off, Pakistan is focusing on the 4 Chinese F22P and on 4 new build corvettes (and one day may be a class of 4 new FFGs).
My point was that corvettes can be useful for a defensive posture.
cheers
According to this site Kanwa reported that PN is interested in procuring the Type-054 FFG. The same source also says the F-22P's displacement is 2500 tons, any chance of the displacement crossing 2600 ton? In any case the PN's modernization program is coming together quite nicely, 12 major surface combatants and 6 AIP SSKs.