China's military power

[Ths]

There are things that really doesn't fit:

1. On one hand China has had nuclear weapons for quite some time now - thus nuclear power; but they still burn coal and oil. If I'm not to wrong, the Chinese nuclear forces are not to the same standard the Russians are - even at todays reduced standard.

2. On one hand the chinse vociferously claim to be the best in technology - and on the other they haven't developed a decent civilian airplane yet....

3. On one hand they claim to be peacefull, and on the other they maintain a huge army, where it should be abundantly clear that nobody really want to invade China - who would want to add the chinese problems to their own??

4. They make great claims for their army, yet the record the last 100 years is slightly less than impressive.

 

[goldenpanda]

There are things that really doesn't fit:

This is an interesting post I'd like to address.

1. On one hand China has had nuclear weapons for quite some time now - thus nuclear power; but they still burn coal and oil. If I'm not to wrong, the Chinese nuclear forces are not to the same standard the Russians are - even at todays reduced standard.

Coal has always been cheaper than nuclear power, even in the West. For a long time china lacked access to overseas resources, so the uranium we had at home went into weapons. Our nukes are quite good today. The DF31A is a very small missile at 40 tons, yet it can deliver a 1 megaton bomb at 12000km. We just haven't built that many of them since we cannot benefit from "racing" Americans.

2. On one hand the chinse vociferously claim to be the best in technology - and on the other they haven't developed a decent civilian airplane yet....

Actually Chinese vociferously claim we need to catch up. It's kind of a way to urge ourselves forward, but discredits our abilities in the eyes of the west. Many Chinese systems since 90's are state of the art, with no major design blunders. We have explored many new technology areas such as anti-carrier warfare with our own thinking.

Our consumer technology is broad but our market leading ability is weak. In other words we can make everything--including passenger aircraft--but they wouldn't sell. This is the area where we need the most foreign participation, since many "soft" skills are needed in consumer products.

3. On one hand they claim to be peacefull, and on the other they maintain a huge army, where it should be abundantly clear that nobody really want to invade China - who would want to add the chinese problems to their own??

This question is quite hypocritical. Why do European countries even maintain any army at all? Why does USA spend $400 billion a year? Every country will build a defense force to project its interests as well as the image of itself.

4. They make great claims for their army, yet the record the last 100 years is slightly less than impressive.

The record of People's Republic of China is we never lost a war, and in fact succeeded under adverse conditions. In Korea we advanced hundreds of kilometers against overwhelming firepower, and a very large UN army when counting South Koreans. We soundly beat India near *their* side of the Himalayas. We blungeoned Vietnam many times in the 70's and 80's, defying their alliance with Soviets.

the PLA is superior on land for these reasons:

- we operate at very high tempo. we don't wait around for all the support to be in place. If we can achieve the mission we do it, then we keep going to maximize combat against the enemy.

- we excel under adverse conditions. We have superior basic training. Our soldiers can tolerate more and do more. We are more mobile in bad terrain. The PLA doesn't give up.

- we have great generals. This point is often missed by the West. Our generals have great intuition about operations. They make good use of terrain. They push hard for results and our soldiers follow them. They took a peasant army half way down the Korean penninsula when PRC was a new born country lacking everything. Today there is great progress at increasing professionalism at all levels of command, while retaining these "peasant army" strengths.

 

[Tasman]

Our nukes are quite good today. The DF31A is a very small missile at 40 tons, yet it can deliver a 1 megaton bomb at 12000km. We just haven't built that many of them since we cannot benefit from "racing" Americans.

It seems sensible to me that China should not attempt a nuclear arms race with the USA. The USA has a huge head start!

Actually Chinese vociferously claim we need to catch up. It's kind of a way to urge ourselves forward, but discredits our abilities in the eyes of the west. Many Chinese systems since 90's are state of the art, with no major design blunders. We have explored many new technology areas such as anti-carrier warfare with our own thinking.

I am interested in the technology developed for anti carrier warfare. Can you give more information re this?

This question is quite hypocritical. Why do European countries even maintain any army at all? Why does USA spend $400 billion a year? Every country will build a defense force to project its interests as well as the image of itself.

Fair enough comment.

The record of People's Republic of China is we never lost a war, and in fact succeeded under adverse conditions. In Korea we advanced hundreds of kilometers against overwhelming firepower, and a very large UN army when counting South Koreans. We soundly beat India near *their* side of the Himalayas. We blungeoned Vietnam many times in the 70's and 80's, defying their alliance with Soviets.

the PLA is superior on land for these reasons:

- we operate at very high tempo. we don't wait around for all the support to be in place. If we can achieve the mission we do it, then we keep going to maximize combat against the enemy.

- we excel under adverse conditions. We have superior basic training. Our soldiers can tolerate more and do more. We are more mobile in bad terrain. The PLA doesn't give up.

- we have great generals. This point is often missed by the West. Our generals have great intuition about operations. They make good use of terrain. They push hard for results and our soldiers follow them. They took a peasant army half way down the Korean penninsula when PRC was a new born country lacking everything. Today there is great progress at increasing professionalism at all levels of command, while retaining these "peasant army" strengths

I think that many westerners would be like me and have probably not really studied Chinese military history as closely as we should have done. I was well aware of Chinese involvement in the Korean War and the problems China caused for UN troops, but since then my mind has been occupied with the USSR (Cold War), Vietnam (60s and 70s), and now Iraq, Afghanistan and the War Against Terror. I would personally like to see China working with western countries to help contain what I see as a threat to peace by the North Korean nuclear program. I agree with you that China has had many military successes. Do you acknowedge that there may have been some failures or at least some things that could have gone better?

Cheers

 

[Ths]

1. Coal cheaper? Oil cheaper? Then why use steam locomotives??

2. Quote:" ... we can make everything--including passenger aircraft--but they wouldn't sell ..."
Precisely!! One of the requirements for a civilian aircrafgt is that it offers the buyer advantages in either procurement or operation. The Russians produced some pretty decent aircraft, couldn't - to expensive to operate.

3. I once heard the Chinese defence attache talk about the Danish divisions. We are very hard pressed to produce one. Indeed both the US and Europe has reduced their armed forces - in case You haven't noticed, The expenditure is to a large extend costs of transformation.
The Chinese image of themselves is what I'm worried about.

4. So China won the Korean war? At best a draw. The Indians screwed up royally - at best a draw. Forgot to talk about Vietnam, where the PLA returned quickly - moved quickly admitted - it was a rout. That's what I mean by slightly less than impressive.

Your comments on the glory of the Chinese army........

 

[eckherl]

I assume you mean MLRS. I only have public information. They have enough range to saturate landing beach--good for going after second value targets.

Both countries have black programs. China keeps more secrets generally. We think deterrence is best announced when it's too late to do anything about it.

No - I meant the artillery piece that was pictured. It`s not good all the time to show your cards, the U.S says that they are worried about China`s new missile venture in space, which I do not believe because if they were that worried they would of not gone public like they did so fast. I feel China has other problems that they should be worried about instead of just the U.S, you should of reigned in North Korea when you had the chance, now you will see some other big economies like Japan and South Korea start a massive arms race, when Russia starts getting their oil and natural gas up and running they will stop relying on China to buy their weapons, and they really do not trust China, they are just a cash cow to them at the moment, India will also play a factor in challenging China as a dominate super power in that general area also.:japan :skorea :usa :india

 

[crobato]

Is there any new arty we don't know about? The last one was the WS-2 long range guided MLRS. But that's public and pretty much brochured already.

 

[goldenpanda]

1. Coal cheaper? Oil cheaper? Then why use steam locomotives??

because coal is cheaper? What are you confused about?

The Chinese image of themselves is what I'm worried about.

We don't have map of denmark in our image if that's what you worry.

4. So China won the Korean war? At best a draw.

Before we entered war, northern korea belonged to USA. After our fighting, northern korea belonged to North Korea, our ally. Is Germany taking Denmark a draw, too?

The Indians screwed up royally - at best a draw.

Such strange thinking..

Forgot to talk about Vietnam, where the PLA returned quickly - moved quickly admitted - it was a rout.

We dislodged their entire army from border area using 30 category B divisions, with the rest held in reserve against Soviet Union. We left in an orderly fashion after the goal of making their lives suffer was achieved, since we did not want war with Soviets.

I agree with you that China has had many military successes. Do you acknowedge that there may have been some failures or at least some things that could have gone better?

Because Chinese talk so much about our deficiencies I had to correct the balance a bit. Our main problem is the lack of systematic coordination across all the participants in the military machine, which describes everything from the different arms, services, as well as industrial and scientific sectors. Chinese tend to focus on one thing and overlook others. In recently years we have developed a lot of personnel systems work to combat these problems. Still in some areas they do not function as smoothly or as innovatively as in the West.

In terms of specific anti-carrier technologies, the rumor is there is a network that allows submarines to communicate while deeply submerged. A lot of these things are speculative even among Chinese. By their nature we cannot reveal "first strike" weapons. But there are enough technically possible things being thrown around that you know *something* is going on.


eckherl, China would like very much to address our other problems. Perhaps if USA can address its latent militarism and racism we can both concentrate on improving the world.

 

[Mick73]

The reason they use coal is...
1. They have a large amount of it here in China.
2. Labour is dirt cheap and replaceable.
3. They can't use nuclear yet because the French haven't sold them the reactors and they can't make everything.

Other reasons not to worry...
1. Most things made here, just don't last. esp electronics.
2. One of the reasons for such a large PLA is the CCP needs to have a good buffer between themselves and the educated population.
3. 800 million people here are deemed "peasants/farmers" who are not educated or have the access to education.
4. The gap between the rich and the poor is getting wider...presenting huge problems as some people are begining to question the government.
5. With greater access to the internet and opening up to the west is creating more questioning of what is really going on in the world...people here are getting very interested in what is beyond the shores of China.
6. The birth inbalance between male and female is going to impact the social stabilitly of the population.
7. The complete disregard to IPR, with some only for show "destroying of pirate DVD's/Cd's and most small consumer products" is going to cause a long lasting untrust in the CCP, with the WTO.

I could go on but you all might be getting bored by now.

Basicly, China has a large amount of internal problems that are known in the west. Pushing blame onto other countries and by them saying your are doing this or that only makes them look more unable to conduct offensive military actions without loosing control of it population. Spending billions of yuan on a space program when the monies could be used to help the poor of it own country or supporting the UN in peacekeping operations for a true sign of wanting peace. That would make better sence.
What I have seen in my time here in the middle kingdon leaves me with some doubt on what China is trying to achieve. They are a developing country that is far from been developed and try to fight in a weight class above what they are capable of.
China ground fighting capabilies are well known to be that of mainly infantry with large amounts of artillery, both gun and rocket. Back up with some armour and light attack helos. The PLA-AF does have some front line fighters but mainly relies on older airframes that could be used in numbers to try take on a CVBG or two but the chances of that happening before SLCM/ALCM strike on it airbases would mean a rapid reduction of this force.
for China to be the victor in a conflict with any nation, would require that conflict to be on Chinese soil. This will not happen. China as yet cannot project any serious military threat form its own shore. This might change but other countries will take steps to counter these advances.
The current need for natural resorces and any halting of these would severly reduce China fighting abilities.
Oh and Hilter did make a mistake with the US, but loosing all of the monies it handed out the its allies was one of the main reasons for it taking part in the WW1 and WW2. And of coarse it islolation gave the US a huge advantage over Germany and Japan. The US did turn the tide in both of those war for these reasons.
One thing to say in favour of China, it's people are very friendly and giving and my Chinese girlfriend rocks when it come to maths!

zaijian! jinde xiongmao

 

[goldenpanda]

Mick73 we have 11 nuclear reactors and we're building 30 more. We will be the first in world to build a commercial pebble bed reactor. A while back Australia signed a deal to supply us uranium. You had to get American approval or something.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/china.html

Chinese will admit to our problems (that's how you know about them in the first place), but none of it prevents us from winning a war of our choosing. To say we can't fight because we complain about CCP, is like dismissing USA because dem's and republicans are constantly squabbling. In fact the "educated population" is the segment most likely to support CCP's aims here--you might know that if you had any contact with it.

Coal is cheap and available, but our labor isn't "replaceable". We have had quite a few successful offensive operations in last 50 years--australia has had none. You sat at home when Japan came to your doorstep, and had to be rescued by USA. Didn't we launch some satellites for you? but you couldn't get the sats the work. Are you punching above your weight class?

Everything I've seen from you is a confused mess, with unjustified condescension from a guy whose country relies on others for defense. So do me a favor and think about not coming back.

 

[Tasman]

A while back Australia signed a deal to supply us uranium. You had to get American approval or something.

What is your information source for this statement? I'm not aware of Australia needing permission from any other country to sell uranium to China or any one else.

We have had quite a few successful offensive operations in last 50 years--australia has had none. You sat at home when Japan came to your doorstep, and had to be rescued by USA.

Australians hardly sat at home. A huge proportion of the Australian population was already involved in active service in the Middle East and in the UK when Japan attacked in the Pacific. Yes, Australia received and was grateful for American assistance but please don't try and tell any Australian that they didn't pull their weight in WW2!

 

[abramsteve]

Before we entered war, northern korea belonged to USA. After our fighting, northern korea belonged to North Korea, our ally. Is Germany taking Denmark a draw, too?

Well thats one way you could look at it, another is that your real aim was the possession of the entire Korean Penisula, for the North or for China, and that you and the NKs failed in that ultimate goal. I dunno but to me that seems more like a draw...

 

[abramsteve]

Coal is cheap and available, but our labor isn't "replaceable". We have had quite a few successful offensive operations in last 50 years--australia has had none. You sat at home when Japan came to your doorstep, and had to be rescued by USA. Didn't we launch some satellites for you? but you couldn't get the sats the work. Are you punching above your weight class?

Everything I've seen from you is a confused mess, with unjustified condescension from a guy whose country relies on others for defense. So do me a favor and think about not coming back.

How dare you!!! My granfather would punch your stupid lights out for that comment! That is the ultimate insult! My great Uncle died fighting the Japannese, and my granfather was wounded. AT LEAST WE ARENT BARBARIC INHUMANE TOUGH GUYS. My opinion of you and your nation has been massivley affected by your comments!

 

[abramsteve]

Sorry Mods, but this guys been baiting people since he got here. His last comment I wasnt gonna let stand.

 

[goldenpanda]

So Aussie can dish it out, but can't take any.

Please have respect for others if you want it for yourself, that's all.

 

[abramsteve]

So Aussie can dish it out, but can't take any.

Please have respect for others if you want it for yourself, that's all.

Depends on who its comin from, and if thats you then I wont take nothin. You wont be getting my respect for a long time

 

[goldenpanda]

Australians hardly sat at home. A huge proportion of the Australian population was already involved in active service in the Middle East and in the UK when Japan attacked in the Pacific. Yes, Australia received and was grateful for American assistance but please don't try and tell any Australian that they didn't pull their weight in WW2!

Not to push the issue, but didn't Australia have a fairly large homeland force, that they weren't allowed to deploy overseas?

Anyway I don't have any problem with Australians. I have a problem with Mick73, who can't hold respect for the country that is his host. Disrespect breeds more of it back at you.

 

[Tasman]

Not to push the issue, but didn't Australia have a fairly large homeland force, that they weren't allowed to deploy overseas?

Australia had a militia that was basically a home defence force, but militia units were deployed to New Guinea where they fought with distinction against the Japanese until relieved by soldiers returning from the Middle East. In WW2 Australia's population was only 6 million. Despite this small base 575,000 Australians (all volunteers) served on active duty overseas. The total number enlisted in the military was 993,000.

http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/statistics/1885_1973.htm

 

[abramsteve]

He didnt openly disrespect China, he has an opinion that differs from yours. Youve come here with this China has this, China has that mentality, and everytime someone questions it, you respond with some kind of arrogant condecending comment.

Most people here will simpily ignore your coments, but your outrage of a statement about Australia and WWII was the last straw for me. Clearly Im not as mature as the other members of this forum...

 

[Tasman]

It would be good to get back to discussing China's military power without further distractions.

Cheers

 

[goldenpanda]

He didnt openly disrespect China, he has an opinion that differs from yours. Youve come here with this China has this, China has that mentality, and everytime someone questions it, you respond with some kind of arrogant condecending comment.

Most people here will simpily ignore your coments, but your outrage of a statement about Australia and WWII was the last straw for me. Clearly Im not as mature as the other members of this forum...

Well if you think saying your country didn't attack Japan was a deadly insult, consider the laundry list Mick73 came up with, half of which was irrelevant, the other half simply untrue. So "china sucks" is an "opinion that differs", but "China makes modern things" is a condescending mentality. Sorry we're just not going to get along, and I'm not the one with the problem.