Turkish Navy news and updates.

[beleg]

MILGEM seems to be a good project although I believe that if the first ship is going to be commisioned in 2010 the RAM it carries(7.5km range) will be out of date.Also their cost is 200 million $ each,the MEKO 200 frigates shouldn't cost more than 300-400 million $,so why not MEKO and even more if these corvettes will have a coastal defense role why not a FACM our Roussen class for example cost 92 million each and were built here in Greece.So with 1.6 billion $(cost of 8 Milgem) you could buy 4-5 MEKO or 16 FACMs

First of all , the CIWS for MilGEM is not selected as of yet. It might be RAM it might be SeaRAM or another . Its very easy to replace this kind of systems in a ship. comparing with Greek S-Class frigates which dont have even the most primitive Phalanx on them, MilGEM will be able to defend itself..

Why not MEKO? The answer is simple. Once you can build something like Milgem , you wont ever need to buy stuff like MEKO anymore. These ships are scalable and modular , the next step after a corvette is logically a frigate. I am quite confident that once the trials of MilGEM comes to a certain stage we will hear more about a Turkish concept for a multi purpose frigate.

 

[orko_8]

For the MILGEM cost,I searched through Google and found that it's 1.6 billion for the 8 ships.As far as the FACMs are concerned, in Greece with biggest coastline in Europe they are need for coastal defence.The Visby corvette costs between 100-184 millions,there are other examples too.You should also check "The Global corvette"(US).I think that it might cost less than 200millions,a total new program.

Ah I see, you are referring to GlobalSecurity site which has not been updated for a very long time. No official figures declared yet, but as I said, most defense sources claim 1.x billion dollar cost.

I remember reading Turkish Navy commanders' speeches mentioning "production of 12 indigenous corvettes" which may be a clue about the realization of +4 options.

 

[beleg]

For the MILGEM cost,I searched through Google and found that it's 1.6 billion for the 8 ships.As far as the FACMs are concerned, in Greece with biggest coastline in Europe they are need for coastal defence.The Visby corvette costs between 100-184 millions,there are other examples too.You should also check "The Global corvette"(US).I think that it might cost less than 200millions,a total new program.

How much does F-35 cost?

1,6 billion for 8 ships is only an estimated cost including R&D. Its an ongoing project which still spends money for R&D. The unit costs can not be safely guessed at the moment.

Isn't Global Corvette for Royal Navy? The corvette program for USNavy is LCS. Their prices are in the same range with estimations for MilGEM (+-50Mio US$) and probably total cost of ownership for MilGEM will be much lower since MilGEM uses more traditional systems.

 

[Gerasimos]

First of all , the CIWS for MilGEM is not selected as of yet. It might be RAM it might be SeaRAM or another . Its very easy to replace this kind of systems in a ship. comparing with Greek S-Class frigates which dont have even the most primitive Phalanx on them, MilGEM will be able to defend itself..

Why not MEKO? The answer is simple. Once you can build something like Milgem , you wont ever need to buy stuff like MEKO anymore. These ships are scalable and modular , the next step after a corvette is logically a frigate. I am quite confident that once the trials of MilGEM comes to a certain stage we will hear more about a Turkish concept for a multi purpose frigate.

In this site it's says just RAM http://www.turkishnavy.net/milgem.htm in wikipedia it says RAM and that there is the possibility of putting MK.41 but at start they will use RAM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgem.
Also you should check your sources about our frigates:Elli,Limnos have 2 Phalanx and Sea Sparrow,Adrias,Aegeon,Navarino,Kountouriotis,Bouboulina,Kanaris,Themistocles,Fokas have 1 Phalanx and Sea Sparrow.that means that all our S-Class frigates have Phalanx and Sea Sparrow.please tell me the AAW capability of your Knox class(none),and of the Perry class(ancient SM-1).....
I also said that it looks good(MILGEM) but I'm waiting to see the results and problems that may come up during trials....When it will be brought into service then I will say my opinion...
Thank you orko for the information.I saw it in the site of "navy matters".

 

[orko_8]

Just a note: The last four Elli class frigates do not have Phalanx (F463 - F466)

 

[Gerasimos]

Just a note: The last four Elli class frigates do not have Phalanx (F463 - F466)

orko_8 if you check the greek version of the official site of hellenic navy,you'll see that only F465-F466 don't have Phalanx(you are right to that thank you for mentioning it).F463-F464 have Phalanx.

 

[orko_8]

orko_8 if you check the greek version of the official site of hellenic navy,you'll see that only F465-F466 don't have Phalanx(you are right to that thank you for mentioning it).F463-F464 have Phalanx.

Are you sure?

http://www.worldwarships.com/S_Borg/Bouboulina_sjb.jpg
http://xs411.xs.to/xs411/07015/2093875238443857.jpg
http://bendijkstra.nl/F-464 ex F825.jpg

In addition, according to PN official site (which is direct copy-paste from Jane's Fighting Ships)

"1 or 2 (450, 451) GE/GD Vulcan Phalanx 20 mm Mk 15 6-barrelled; 3,000 rds/min combined to 1.5 km. One mounting only on hangar roof in F 459-462."
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/frigates_s_en.asp

It simply says that F450 and F451 have two, F459, F460, F461 and F462 have one Phalanx.

 

[Gladius]

Gerasimos, in late 2005 the F-464 Kanaris came to Spain as part of SNMG-2 Task Group and the past year 2006 she visit Barcelona and both times without phalanx installed.

As proof:

Palma Oct.15th - 2005.
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7230/ftk73ud.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/6451/sdf6gj.jpg

Barcelona 2006.
http://aycu19.webshots.com/image/5258/2004976948812931559_rs.jpg

PS: Pics the Siroc & Nacho.

 

[Gerasimos]

Are you sure?

http://www.worldwarships.com/S_Borg/Bouboulina_sjb.jpg
http://xs411.xs.to/xs411/07015/2093875238443857.jpg
http://bendijkstra.nl/F-464 ex F825.jpg

In addition, according to PN official site (which is direct copy-paste from Jane's Fighting Ships)

"1 or 2 (450, 451) GE/GD Vulcan Phalanx 20 mm Mk 15 6-barrelled; 3,000 rds/min combined to 1.5 km. One mounting only on hangar roof in F 459-462."
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/frigates_s_en.asp

It simply says that F450 and F451 have two, F459, F460, F461 and F462 have one Phalanx.

Guys I just said what you can read in the greek hellenic navy site,check
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/kanaris_f464.asp#a1
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/mpoumpoulina_f463.asp
I know it's Greek but you'll see that it says Phalanx,I read it from there.For me it doesn't matter so much if 4 of our frigates don't have Phalanx.I wanted to answer to Beleg who said that they don't have AAW capabilities.And I proved they have.They all have Sea sparrow,in contrary to the Turkish frigates I mentioned.

 

[beleg]

I think you have a reading and/or understanding problem. I didnt say they dont have AAW capability. It is you who keeps talking about AAW capability which you base on SSM/NSSM (which also is ancient and is being replaced by ESSM) which imo is not a very good missile to depend on.. In fact i believe its worse than SM-1.

What i want to say, but because of hurrying too much said in an in complete way, is "some" Greek frigates lack a CIWS not AAW. Period.

Ships operate in task forces, they never sail alone during wartime , Milgem will be operating with frigates, which will have ESSM and perhaps SM-2 by then to provide protection form aerial threats.

Besides, the ship alredy does have sensors and the space to install VLS systems which can house ESSM or another missile if needed.

Anyway the topic is Turkish Navy, if you have valuable input please post it. But dont turn the topic in to another Turkish vs Greek comparison thread. It gets boring after a while.

 

[tatra]

comparing with Greek S-Class frigates which dont have even the most primitive Phalanx on them, MilGEM will be able to defend itself..

It may be the case some ex-Dutch, now Greek S-frigates (S=Standaard which, incidentally, is a type and not a class indication) do not carry Phalanx. However, severel of their sisterships in Greek service do and they have carried Goalkeeper as well as 40mm and 76mm guns atop the hangar in other navies. There should be no trouble whatsoever fitting Phalanx, SeaRam, or RAM (see also German F122 Bremen class, a S-frigate derivatie), a twin Fast Forty, a Sea Guard firing unit or some other CIWS.

To the extent there is a problem (with fitting a CIWS), it is one of funding and not one of ship design or technology.

Below a S-frigate variant proposed for Iran (then still under the rile of the Shah), to accompany the 4 US designed destroyers which later became the Kidd class. Yes, that's a Standard missile launcher as found on the O.H. Perry class frigates, and 2 Phalanx.

 

[tatra]

Nice work happening in your navy.I believe the only disadvantage is the frigates .All of Knox class were launched in 1971,1972 so there are ships 35 years old(with steam engines!).If they are retired the actual number of frigates is reduced to 16.Also the A69 corvettes were launched between 1973 and 1977,so approximately 30 years old ships(They don't even have modern SAM system,correct me if I make a mistake).So my point is that the Turkish navy has actually 16 frigates and 2 "seas" to divide this number.It is dificult because Turkish navy must have 14 frigates in Aegean because we (Greece)have 14 frigates.So only 2 frigates remain to guard the Black sea.And if some frigates are decided to guard the southern sea of Turkey I mean between Cyprus,Syria etc the actual number of frigates in Aegean is further reduced.

Why would the Turks need to keep any ships in the Black Sea? All they need to do is block the passage to the Med. That's where the important sea lanes of communication are. And you may not even need ships to accomplish that.

 

[contedicavour]

Below a S-frigate variant proposed for Iran (then still under the rile of the Shah), to accompany the 4 US designed destroyers which later became the Kidd class. Yes, that's a Standard missile launcher as found on the O.H. Perry class frigates, and 2 Phalanx.

Interesting thumbnail. The Dutch did build a modified Kortenaer FFG with SM1MR, the Van Heemsmerk AAW FFGs now sold to Chile. Though they preferred to install the SM1 aft (replacing the hangar for the helo) in order to preserve the Sea Sparrow launcher.
I do confirm the ex Dutch Kortenaer used to carry Phalanx and/or Goalkeeper CIWS in Dutch service, so no issue whatsoever to put those systems back on.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Why would the Turks need to keep any ships in the Black Sea? All they need to do is block the passage to the Med. That's where the important sea lanes of communication are. And you may not even need ships to accomplish that.

Giventhe very long Turkish coastline on the Black Sea, I would still make sure a strong coast guard or a significant force of Navy corvettes are there for fishery patrol, anti-smuggling, protection of trade routes, etc
Russian Black Sea, Ukrainian, Georgian, Bulgarian navies are in a bad condition and probably aren't able to perform those tasks in the rest of the Black Sea, so Turkey should at least help its own national interests there.
Worth noticing I didn't mention Romania above, since its navy is apparently in better conditions (especially since the ex RN Broadsword Batch 2 acquisition)

cheers

 

[Rich]

I agree with my Italian friends description of the importance the Black Sea coastline has to Turkey. I will add to that the Black Sea is a vital tourism, commercial, and fisheries hub that is essential to the Turkish economy. If youve never been to the Black Sea Turkish coastline you should really plan a trip there, most of all for you Europeans. Because it is stunning! It was one of the great vacation secrets of Europe back when I was over there. Yugoslavia was another one.

As has already been mentioned its also a stretch of coast where smuggling and other criminal activity has always been prevalent.

But any region of such vital economic importance is going to have a military presence. Even during the "bad old days" in Turkey, back when I was there, there was very little trouble around the Tourist areas. Turkey is a wonderful place to tour.

 

[tatra]

I didn't say the Black Sea was unimportant to Turkey, just that they would not necessarily need a bunch of frigates there.

 

[tatra]

Interesting thumbnail. The Dutch did build a modified Kortenaer FFG with SM1MR, the Van Heemsmerk AAW FFGs now sold to Chile. Though they preferred to install the SM1 aft (replacing the hangar for the helo) in order to preserve the Sea Sparrow launcher.
I do confirm the ex Dutch Kortenaer used to carry Phalanx and/or Goalkeeper CIWS in Dutch service, so no issue whatsoever to put those systems back on.

cheers

Yes, but the Heemskerk was designed more as a pure AAW ship, complement to the old Tromp a.k. Kojak class, which explains the sacrifice of the hangar area in the rear rather than the Sparrow launcher forward of the bridge.

Did you notice the incredible similarity of that version for Iran with Germany's F122 Bremen class?

 

[swerve]

I agree with my Italian friends description of the importance the Black Sea coastline has to Turkey. I will add to that the Black Sea is a vital tourism, commercial, and fisheries hub that is essential to the Turkish economy. If youve never been to the Black Sea Turkish coastline you should really plan a trip there, most of all for you Europeans. Because it is stunning! It was one of the great vacation secrets of Europe back when I was over there. Yugoslavia was another one.

As has already been mentioned its also a stretch of coast where smuggling and other criminal activity has always been prevalent.

But any region of such vital economic importance is going to have a military presence. Even during the "bad old days" in Turkey, back when I was there, there was very little trouble around the Tourist areas. Turkey is a wonderful place to tour.

I haven't been there for all of three years. First trip since my days of bumming around on the cheap in the 1980s, when I went to the north-east. Very pleasant - the forests in the coastal ranges are beautiful in spring & early summer, full of flowers. There was a daily F-16 patrol along the coast in 2003, but down below, I didn't see a policeman for a week, hanging around in little beach resorts full of Turks, with very very few foreigners. Lovely.

 

[atilla]

after?? 12 oclock__????

did they patrol after 12 o clock or Before 12 o clock D joke about black sea black sea coast ıs lovely about all type of green u can see

U should try the fısh named HAMSİ in pot along whith corn bread

 

[balamir]

So Turks need to leave some ships in the Black Sea whereas Greece doesn't need to leave some on Ionian Sea? Splendid. I'm sure our subs would like to have free for all shooting there