Turkish Navy news and updates.

[contedicavour]

Yes, but the Heemskerk was designed more as a pure AAW ship, complement to the old Tromp a.k. Kojak class, which explains the sacrifice of the hangar area in the rear rather than the Sparrow launcher forward of the bridge.

Did you notice the incredible similarity of that version for Iran with Germany's F122 Bremen class?

Yes indeed. Dutch and German ships are very similar, such as the latest AAW FFGs (F124 and De Zeven Provincen). If there still was a big enough market for AAW FFG/DDGs around I would expect something similar to F124/DZP to be on offer as a potential competitor to FREMM and Aegis-equipped ships.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

The F122 is a modified Korteaner class. This explains the similarity.

 

[contedicavour]

The F122 is a modified Korteaner class. This explains the similarity.

Yep I remember that, though I don't know if the original design was Dutch or German ? Was there some sort of licence acquisition or was it more of a joint project with shared R&D ?

cheers

 

[Waylander]

As long as I know the main part is dutch with some german input.

 

[tatra]

The F122 is a modified Korteaner class. This explains the similarity.

As if I didn't know. What I meant was that the proposal for Iran is more different from Kortenaer but more similar to Bremen. This is especially evident if you consider the hangar area.

The Standard Frigate of the Kortenaer class has been a successful design. Conceived as a general purpose frigate for operations in the Eastern Atlantic area, it is equipped with an AAW suite for point air defence and an MC gun and ASM Harpoon for ASW. With good seakeeping behaviour, low underwater noise, low self-noise and two-helicopter capacity the platform provides a powerful ASW capability. The design has attracted keen international interest. The Federal German Republic acquired the design for the F122, the Bremen class. Bremen is similar to the Kortenaer but uses a different rear superstructure hull and different propulsion system (apart from electronics fit).

FOr F124 and LCF, commonality extends only to systems, not platform.

 

[Waylander]

Sorry, I missunderstood this.

 

[contedicavour]

The Standard Frigate of the Kortenaer class has been a successful design. Conceived as a general purpose frigate for operations in the Eastern Atlantic area, it is equipped with an AAW suite for point air defence and an MC gun and ASM Harpoon for ASW. With good seakeeping behaviour, low underwater noise, low self-noise and two-helicopter capacity the platform provides a powerful ASW capability. The design has attracted keen international interest. The Federal German Republic acquired the design for the F122, the Bremen class. Bremen is similar to the Kortenaer but uses a different rear superstructure hull and different propulsion system (apart from electronics fit).

... though at the end the Kortenaers ended up without VDS or towed array as multi-purpose FFGs in the Greek and UAE navies... given their ASW potential in the Atlantic they would have been potentially better used by the Brazilian or Portuguese or Chilean navies (yes I know Chile is on the Pacific, but you get my point )

cheers

 

[sanalbey]

why Turkish Navy must divide its frigates? The most important advantage of warships are thier mobility. It is not a soccer match. You can shift your ships anytime you want? Do you mean Greece keeping 14 frigates 7/24 at Aegean Sea? I don't think so. Also for the Aegean sea you should consider the missile boats and submarines as well. After the MILGEM project TuNavy will have even more assets to use.

 

[contedicavour]

why Turkish Navy must divide its frigates? The most important advantage of warships are thier mobility. It is not a soccer match. You can shift your ships anytime you want? Do you mean Greece keeping 14 frigates 7/24 at Aegean Sea? I don't think so. Also for the Aegean sea you should consider the missile boats and submarines as well. After the MILGEM project TuNavy will have even more assets to use.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Almost all Greek naval assets are in the Aegean sea. There are only a few minor assets in the lower Adriatic Sea, all the rest is facing east. Turkey, on the other hand, has other areas to patrol, from the very long Black Sea coastline to the southern waters facing Cyprus.

cheers

 

[sanalbey]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Almost all Greek naval assets are in the Aegean sea. There are only a few minor assets in the lower Adriatic Sea, all the rest is facing east. Turkey, on the other hand, has other areas to patrol, from the very long Black Sea coastline to the southern waters facing Cyprus.

cheers

my point is during a crise or war you can shift your ships (which are mobile) and focus your efforts at one point/area you need. You can send all your available frigates to one area/sea. And during a conflict (with Greece for instance), I don´t think that Turkish frigates need to patrol Blacksea. There are other minor assets that can perform police duties at Blacksea. And no big naval threat.
Regarding to Cypruss issue; I don´t think that Turkey will reserve it´s frigates to patrol around Cyprus unless Greece intended to send there some ships. Which means that Greece dividing it´s forces as well.
Also what I think missile boats, corvettes and submarines are very useful tools to use at Agean sea. You should also count those ships and add to your equation. And they are also mobile and can be gethered in an area and at any time you need.
You should not measure the coastal line of a country and then divide it with the number of ships to assess it´s naval power.
But if you are talking about peace time patrols it is an other story. I don´t think that both navies using all their frigates/ships to sail and patrol around Agean sea. Just couple of them might be on duty.

Best wishes

 

[beleg]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Almost all Greek naval assets are in the Aegean sea. There are only a few minor assets in the lower Adriatic Sea, all the rest is facing east. Turkey, on the other hand, has other areas to patrol, from the very long Black Sea coastline to the southern waters facing Cyprus.

cheers

Turkey has some Naval assets based in Albania

But its true that most of Greek Navy can easily focus on protecting Aegean. Then again its also true that we have a higher number of platforms then them to maintain a balance. The age of huge armadas is past, now a few ships form small task forces and try to survive against aerial/land based/submarine strikes. In a war Aegean is a probable graveyard for big ships.

 

[contedicavour]

But if you are talking about peace time patrols it is an other story. I don´t think that both navies using all their frigates/ships to sail and patrol around Agean sea. Just couple of them might be on duty.

Best wishes

Indeed, I had peace time patrols in mind. I cannot think of a determined will to start conflict on either side of the Aegean. However accidents can happen and tempers fire up very fast. That's when you can only rely on what you have at a given moment in the area. By the time more assets arrive, hopefully enough good sense will have stopped the escalation and it will up to journalists to count the points.
Anyway, Greece is ruining what I see as its geographical advantage by not replacing fast enough the deleted ships (CF Adams and Knox classes) and relying only on 10 rather old Kortenaer and 4 more recent Meko 200/Hydra. By the time the 4-6 unconfirmed FREMMs will join the fleet (1st in 2013 earliest), most of the Kortenaers will be too old to be useful.

cheers

 

[sanalbey]

Indeed, I had peace time patrols in mind. I cannot think of a determined will to start conflict on either side of the Aegean. However accidents can happen and tempers fire up very fast. That's when you can only rely on what you have at a given moment in the area. By the time more assets arrive, hopefully enough good sense will have stopped the escalation and it will up to journalists to count the points.
Anyway, Greece is ruining what I see as its geographical advantage by not replacing fast enough the deleted ships (CF Adams and Knox classes) and relying only on 10 rather old Kortenaer and 4 more recent Meko 200/Hydra. By the time the 4-6 unconfirmed FREMMs will join the fleet (1st in 2013 earliest), most of the Kortenaers will be too old to be useful.

cheers

I believe the art at war. Geography could be seemed as an advantage but it could be a problem for Greece as well. The one who could merge the operational planing with the art of war can use the geography in his own side´s favor. Of course these are just my opinions and valid for the both sides.
I think Kortenaers are quite good ships and I have watched a program at a Greek TV (actually you can find it at Youtube) that their CICs are quite improved/changed. But my concern is Hellenic Navy has lack of area air defence systems. Their (self) air defence radious is 8 nm which gives opponent airforce quite enough area to maneouver and attack.
I don´t know about FREMMs. Could you give me some onformation about that project? Which country/company building them?

best wishes

 

[Rich]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Almost all Greek naval assets are in the Aegean sea. There are only a few minor assets in the lower Adriatic Sea, all the rest is facing east. Turkey, on the other hand, has other areas to patrol, from the very long Black Sea coastline to the southern waters facing Cyprus.

cheers

To get a true picture of Turkish interest in the Aegean take a look at their TUAF order of battle. http://www.scramble.nl/tr.htm Dont forget to look at where the TUAF CN235M's are based as well. These maritime aircraft would figure heavily in any Aegean conflict as they are both systems, and weapons, heavies. The Turkish navy and air force is pretty Penguin/Harpoon heavy as well, the Turks themselves having a respectable Amphibious force no doubt constructed with the Aegean in mind. Their amphibious marine brigade, and commando brigades, are thought highly of.

Their navy is also mine warfare orientated, which in the Aegean and the straights would be crucial. Last time I checked they had about 50 landing ships of various types.

The Aegean was a potential flash point even before oil was found. Now its doubly so, and the Turks haven't forgotten about it. Really when you look at their force structure, systems types, and order of battle, you see the big word AEGEAN picture clear.

 

[z1pp0]

To get a true picture of Turkish interest in the Aegean take a look at their TUAF order of battle. Dont forget to look at where the TUAF CN235M's are based as well. These maritime aircraft would figure heavily in any Aegean conflict as they are both systems, and weapons, heavies. The Turkish navy and air force is pretty Penguin/Harpoon heavy as well, the Turks themselves having a respectable Amphibious force no doubt constructed with the Aegean in mind. Their amphibious marine brigade, and commando brigades, are thought highly of.

Their navy is also mine warfare orientated, which in the Aegean and the straights would be crucial. Last time I checked they had about 50 landing ships of various types.
.....
Really when you look at their force structure, systems types, and order of battle, you see the big word AEGEAN picture clear.

What are you talking about? :S CN235MP dont have anti ship weapon capability. They are hardly "system and weapon heavies" as you claim. More like a survailance platform than combat aircraft. Also they are based at Topel wich is east of Marmara.

The only AShM capabel platform that I know of is the F-16 Block 50. Something like 50 of them. And its only now that the Turks are buying a handfull air launched Harpoons for testing in conjunction with Peace Onyx IV. In other words not even delivered yet. Half of them based in Merzifon (Blacksea) and the rest in Balikesir. Penguin is used only by a handfull of the old Kartal class fast attack craft's, which are beeing replaced by newer fast attack craft like the Kilic class. All Harpoon assets are mounted on Turkish navy Frigates and Fast attack crafts today.

Air base's close to the Aegean are the ones surounding Izmir. Wich are either trainer or transport bases. The closest "combat active" bases are Balikesir a hundred Km inland and Bandirma by the Marmara sea which is primarily tasked with defence of the straits. Kesan and Aydin are Army and Jandarma helo bases respectively. The bases around Istanbul are for gliders and air force academy flights. Antalya is mainly used by NATO allies flying tanker missions (Northen Watch, OIF) in the middle east. Konya is almost closer to Syria than the aegean. Eskisehir is the main air force base with 3 squadrons, 1 is legacy F-4E's the 2nd are F-4E 2020 and the 3rd is a Recce sq. But beeing halfway between Istanbul and Ankara it is hardly an efficient QRA base.

The fleet of 50 or so ladingships are mostly old and rusty buckets of LCM's and LCT's. Only good for coastal trips. Sure usfull in getting to the islands from the mainland, but hey i could do that in a row boat.

So that leaves 2 squadrons of F-16 from Balikesir close to the aegean, +2 more if necesary from Bandirma. I would be very supprised if the greecs consider Trainers and cargo aircrafts (T-38, T-37, CN235M) a threat. So no I dont agree with your assesment on the Turkish Forces giving an all importance to the aegean. I would say that to the defence of the straits in the north west. Naturally they would always move squadrons to forward bases in time of war.

/Dan

 

[contedicavour]

I don´t know about FREMMs. Could you give me some onformation about that project? Which country/company building them?

best wishes

Well, FREMMs are probably in both Greece's and Turkey's future at some point in the next 10 years, unless both navies opt for ESSMs to modernize Sea Sparrow and to equip new build ships (such as the Turkish Milgems).
At close to 6,500 tonnes and 140 meters long they carry up to 48 VLS for Aster 15/30 and SCALP Naval land-attack cruise missile. Aster-15 already delivers twice the range of old Sea Sparrows and Aster-30 is 2nd only to SM-2 III in range (at 120km vs 167km). The only thing the FREMMs lack for AAW is space for a long range AAW radar, but EMPAR or the French' Herakles are an acceptable backup.
Anyway, political issues between France and Turkey probably handicap FREMM's chances for Turkey unless Turkey selected the Italian version of FREMM. Besides, priority is on Milgems.
Regarding Greece, the next procurement has to be on new FFGs preferably with strong AAW. I'd bet on an order of 4 + option on 2 more before the end of 2007, with 1 built in Lorient and the others in Greek yards. Shame that it would mean selecting Herakles with its poorer performance vs EMPAR...

cheers

 

[Rich]

Again I dont want to turn the thread into an Aegean thing but I cant overemphasize enough the importance of this body of water to Turkey. First off the Turks are at a disadvantage in the Aegean because it is Greece who holds much of the Islands and controls much of the waterway. This right of possession has been upheld in INTL courts and the Greeks aren't to anxious to cede any of it away to their historic enemy. But there is also more.

Much of Turkish industry is near the Aegean as are most of the Ports its industry depends on. Ive already mentioned the oil in the Aegean, most of which is still in the sea bed. But also remember in coming years the Caspian/Straights gateway is going to become one of the most important waterways for oil and natural gas in the world.

So the Aegean is extremely important to Turkey, and, to Greece. Important enough to design and build indigenously a corvette class, very similar to our LCS littoral combat ship, and to outfit it for the Aegean. Important enough to spend a ton of $$ modernizing your submarine force. Important enough to spend over 1/2 a billion$$ on S-70B helicopters. Important enough to Greece to risk a shooting war over deployment of S-300 SAMs to Cyprus and then to Crete.

Both countries are in the process of huge military upgrade programs and while Cyprus has historically been the focus of world attention on the two that is going to change.

The Aegean is the real hotspot and isnt going to be the driving force behind the naval modernizations of both countries. In order to survive and win this War Turkey has to be able to control both ends of the Aegean.

 

[KGB]

T

Their navy is also mine warfare orientated, which in the Aegean and the straights would be crucial. Last time I checked they had about 50 landing ships of various types.

Possibly also related to events in WW1, a couple of losses to mines stopped the British navy from threatening Constantinople; the result was the Gallipoli campaign which ended favorably for Turkey.

 

[ahussains]

How many ships Turkish Navy have ? and how old ?

 

[Rich]

How many ships Turkish Navy have ? and how old ?

Hussain wouldn't this be a fine opportunity for you to research the subject and, instead of asking with a one liner, instead list the numbers and types of ship in the TN? Especially since its in your neck of the woods to begin with.

Then you can go further and explain the strategy behind the Turkish naval procurments. Or explain the importance of Cyprus to Greek overall strategy, "Cyprus is a 2'nd front that ties up a significant Turkish military presence".

In other words try your hand at typing more then one line, and, make a contribution.