New ship(s) for Irish Naval Service???

TerryD

New Member
I know that there has been some talk recently about Ireland buying a Meko 200 MRV to replace its oldest 1970's era OPV, but I have not seen anything concrete on that yet.

It had been reported that 2007 was the target date to replace the 30 year old LE Emer, but there has been little or no information recently on this.


Some of the proposals were to buy a Meko 200 MRV or one of the newer OPV models (Roisin class, NZ Protector OPV, Meko 100 OPV, etc...).


Has there been any recent news on this? 2007 is fast approaching.
 

contedicavour

New Member
TerryD said:
I know that there has been some talk recently about Ireland buying a Meko 200 MRV to replace its oldest 1970's era OPV, but I have not seen anything concrete on that yet.

It had been reported that 2007 was the target date to replace the 30 year old LE Emer, but there has been little or no information recently on this.


Some of the proposals were to buy a Meko 200 MRV or one of the newer OPV models (Roisin class, NZ Protector OPV, Meko 100 OPV, etc...).


Has there been any recent news on this? 2007 is fast approaching.
One thing that is surprising is that the latest Roisin don't have helos embarked, while the Eithne had. The Dauphin has even been taken out of service... Strange, since most navies are investing to expand helo service.
That doesn't help push for an order for a MRV...

cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Currently Ireland operates 8 offshore patrol vessels, 2 of which are very new. Two of their OPVs need to be replaced in the next few years, another 2 will need to be replaced within the next 10 years. The MEKO 200 MRV is a frigate sized offshore patrol vessel using the helicopter facilities as an ouside vehicle deck. Because the MEKO 200 MRV is designed as a warship instead of a commerical vessel it may be too expensive, having only half the vehicle space of the destroyer sized Danish Asbalon.

While the navy would love to have one warship design as an offshore patrol vessel, the army appears to want a ship with much more vehicle space, and not necessarily a warship design. I think the navy is pushing the MEKO 200 MRV design to fit their needs, I don't think this design fits the army's needs.

The last I heard is that the Irish government is interested in acquiring two OPVs for around 30 million Euros each, plus a commerically designed affordable MRV with enough vehicle space to move the army's equipment with one ship. Another order for two of the Roisin class OPVs would fit the budget. The New Zealand MRV may be too large for the Irish, but it carries twice as much vehicles, and twice as many containers as the MEKO design, plus 5 helicopters.

I'm expecting two more commerically designed OPVs to be ordered soon. Since the leadership does wish to acquire a MRV too, I suspect a similiar but smaller ferry design of the NZ MRV. It appears Ireland may wish to move more troops and vehicles, but without the landing craft and the helicopters. Currently the army is setting the requirements it wishes for a sealift vessel. Buying anything less than what the army needs is in my opinion a waste of funds.

The sister civilian ferries of the NZ MRV cost less than 50 million Euros, the NZ MRV cost around 90 million Euros. Since the helicopter facilities, cranes and landing craft cost some money, eliminating them from this ferry design could save several million Euros. I'm sure the Irish government will be able to acquire something similar for less than what NZ paid.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
Sea Toby said:
Currently Ireland operates 8 offshore patrol vessels, 2 of which are very new. Two of their OPVs need to be replaced in the next few years, another 2 will need to be replaced within the next 10 years. The MEKO 200 MRV is a frigate sized offshore patrol vessel using the helicopter facilities as an ouside vehicle deck. Because the MEKO 200 MRV is designed as a warship instead of a commerical vessel it may be too expensive, having only half the vehicle space of the destroyer sized Danish Asbalon.

While the navy would love to have one warship design as an offshore patrol vessel, the army appears to want a ship with much more vehicle space, and not necessarily a warship design. I think the navy is pushing the MEKO 200 MRV design to fit their needs, I don't think this design fits the army's needs.

The last I heard is that the Irish government is interested in acquiring two OPVs for around 30 million Euros each, plus a commerically designed affordable MRV with enough vehicle space to move the army's equipment with one ship. Another order for two of the Roisin class OPVs would fit the budget. The New Zealand MRV may be too large for the Irish, but it carries twice as much vehicles, and twice as many containers as the MEKO design, plus 5 helicopters.

I'm expecting two more commerically designed OPVs to be ordered soon. Since the leadership does wish to acquire a MRV too, I suspect a similiar but smaller ferry design of the NZ MRV. It appears Ireland may wish to move more troops and vehicles, but without the landing craft and the helicopters. Currently the army is setting the requirements it wishes for a sealift vessel. Buying anything less than what the army needs is in my opinion a waste of funds.

The sister civilian ferries of the NZ MRV cost less than 50 million Euros, the NZ MRV cost around 90 million Euros. Since the helicopter facilities, cranes and landing craft cost some money, eliminating them from this ferry design could save several million Euros. I'm sure the Irish government will be able to acquire something similar for less than what NZ paid.
I'm amazed the Roisins cost only 30 million euro each... does that include electronics and weapons ? A Comandanti class OPV (ok, somewhat larger, but not hugely so) costs 60 million euro each (80 with weapons & radar)

cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Combat Fleets of the World reports the Roisins at $34 million in US dollars, 30 million Euros should be right on target. Its an offshore patrol vessel with a 76mm gun and small arms without any combat weapons control systems, which could easily double their price. They are built to commerical standards, not to military standards. They have very good range for a 78 meter vessel, capable of fishery protection and EEZ patrols. Since their EEZ is mostly to the west of the island nation, land based helicopters are used, only one of their eight offshore patrol vessels have a helicopter facility. They also have very economical diesels, the top speed is only 22 knots.

The similiar New Zealand 85 meter offshore patrol vessels are slightly longer, allowing room for a helicopter facility, with a better sensors package for the broad Pacific, thereby costing around 40-45 million Euros. Although the New Zealand vessels don't have a 76mm gun, they do carry a 25-mm Bushmaster gun similar to their army's LAVs. New Zealand's OPVs are also ice strengthened, unlike Ireland's. I suspect one of the reasons why the Aker Yards commerically designed OPVs have been selling to a number of nations is their low price.

While many nations have built commerically designed warships of a larger size, for light carriers and amphibious shipping, most navies have built military designed warships for their fast attack craft, corvettes, and frigates. As I noted before, these OPVs aren't warships, they are not built to military standards, and are quite underarmed as compared to military designed corvettes. These OPVs are designed to fulfill the role of a fishery protection vessel, and patrol these nations EEZs. They could be useful for SAS surveillance deliveries in the dead of night. They are also useful in showing the flag abroad, but they are not of much use for anti-ship warfare, anti-submarine warfare, or anti-air warfare.

Even if a nation decided to add harpoon missiles, evolved sea sparrow missiles, anti-submarine torpedoes, and a close in weapon system, their electrical plant isn't large enough to supply the electricity, another reason why these ships are cheaper than corvettes. This is exactly the reason why the Famous class of US Coast Guard cutters have never received harpoon missiles or other weapons systems, where will the electricity come from?

Its amazing how much a nation can save buying a commerically designed vessel for commerial surveillance at any size. Military vessels have built-in reduntancies, larger diesel capacity, more electricity, more sensors, more speed, and thus more weapons. Think of it in this way: armies roll about in armoured vehicles, police roll around in unarmoured cars.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
Sea Toby said:
Combat Fleets of the World reports the Roisins at $34 million in US dollars, 30 million Euros should be right on target. Its an offshore patrol vessel with a 76mm gun and small arms without any combat weapons control systems, which could easily double their price. They are built to commerical standards, not to military standards. They have very good range for a 78 meter vessel, capable of fishery protection and EEZ patrols. Since their EEZ is mostly to the west of the island nation, land based helicopters are used, only one of their eight offshore patrol vessels have a helicopter facility. They also have very economical diesels, the top speed is only 22 knots.

The similiar New Zealand 85 meter offshore patrol vessels are slightly longer, allowing room for a helicopter facility, with a better sensors package for the broad Pacific, thereby costing around 40-45 million Euros. Although the New Zealand vessels don't have a 76mm gun, they do carry a 25-mm Bushmaster gun similar to their army's LAVs. New Zealand's OPVs are also ice strengthened, unlike Ireland's. I suspect one of the reasons why the Aker Yards commerically designed OPVs have been selling to a number of nations is their low price.

While many nations have built commerically designed warships of a larger size, for light carriers and amphibious shipping, most navies have built military designed warships for their fast attack craft, corvettes, and frigates. As I noted before, these OPVs aren't warships, they are not built to military standards, and are quite underarmed as compared to military designed corvettes. These OPVs are designed to fulfill the role of a fishery protection vessel, and patrol these nations EEZs. They could be useful for SAS surveillance deliveries in the dead of night. They are also useful in showing the flag abroad, but they are not of much use for anti-ship warfare, anti-submarine warfare, or anti-air warfare.

Even if a nation decided to add harpoon missiles, evolved sea sparrow missiles, anti-submarine torpedoes, and a close in weapon system, their electrical plant isn't large enough to supply the electricity, another reason why these ships are cheaper than corvettes. This is exactly the reason why the Famous class of US Coast Guard cutters have never received harpoon missiles or other weapons systems, where will the electricity come from?
Very interesting indeed, thanks.
That also explains why our Comandante cost 2-3 times more. They have an integrated CIC, radars capable of guiding SSMs if needed, helo plus hangar, and a power system powerful enough to deliver 25 knots.

cheers
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
contedicavour said:
Very interesting indeed, thanks.
That also explains why our Comandante cost 2-3 times more. They have an integrated CIC, radars capable of guiding SSMs if needed, helo plus hangar, and a power system powerful enough to deliver 25 knots.

cheers
Yes your Comandante class etc are fine looking vessels. It tends to be forgotten the rationale behind the RNZN's Project protector fleet is EEZ Patrol as the RNZN has done little effective EEZ patrol in the last 20 years after the bulk of it's patrol fleet were retired & not replaced. The OPV will have a secondary Counter-Terrorism role which is ultimately an extension of the patrol task, but at a higher readiness state. NZ's contribution in this area is more likely to be in the S.E.Asia area.

Budget constraints have ultimately determined that the PP fleet will be lightly armed, commercial spec vessels but they will actually fulfil their primary roles very well. Much discussion has overlooked that fact the PP were never designed, nor intended for combat operations.

Granted I think the MRV should have a self-defence capability, but that's isn't going to happen so will rely on Frigate escort in 'higher threat' scenarios. It is expected the MRV will provide 120 sea days of patrol a year.

I think the Irish Naval Service could learn a lot from the PP fleet!
 

Sea Toby

New Member
While the MEKO 200 MRV design carries 150 army personnel, and has 200 lane meters for vehicles, and zero helicopters, the NZ MRV carries 250 army personnel, and has 403 lane meters for vehicles, plus five helicopters. The price for the MEKO is expected to be around 60 million Euros while the price of the NZ MRV is around 90 million Euros.

I have read that the NZ MRV maybe to large for Ireland. I'm sure something similar and smaller can be built. The length of the MEKO is 120 meters, the length for the NZ MRV is 131 meters. Its in the beam where the NZ ship triples the displacement from the MEKO 14.8 meters to the NZ ship's 23.4 meters.

We should know soon which ships Ireland buys.
 

ahussains

New Member
know that there has been some talk recently about Ireland buying a Meko 200 MRV to replace its oldest 1970's era OPV, but I have not seen anything concrete on that yet.

It had been reported that 2007 was the target date to replace the 30 year old LE Emer, but there has been little or no information recently on this.
 

kams

New Member
ahussains said:
know that there has been some talk recently about Ireland buying a Meko 200 MRV to replace its oldest 1970's era OPV, but I have not seen anything concrete on that yet.

It had been reported that 2007 was the target date to replace the 30 year old LE Emer, but there has been little or no information recently on this.
Originally posted by Terry D...I give up
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The Irish minister of defence was quoted by newmen after his speech Thursday 7 September to the graduating cadets that their government may spend up to 100 million Euros for a larger multi-mission ship. Considering that the New Zealand MRV ran short of 90 million Euros, something similar may be acquired. The MEKO 200 MRV can't possibly run more than 50 million Euros. Ireland is also considering ordering two more OPVs along with the MRV to replace 3 of its ageing OPVs.

From what I have been able to read between the lines, the order should be confirmed soon, awaiting the approval of the finance ministry. It appears the army desires a larger sealift/patrol/training ship than the navy.
 

TerryD

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Irish Naval Service getting three new ships

From the Irish Times (1/6/07):


Upgrade of naval fleet to cost €180m


The Government is to spend some €180 million on three custom-built vessels for the Naval Service in what is believed to be the State's largest ever single military equipment contract, writes Liam Reid , Political Reporter

The three vessels will include one large ship costing in the region of €90 million. This will be the single most expensive purchase ever made by the Defence Forces and will be capable of transporting military equipment for peace missions abroad. It will also have the capacity to participate in emergency humanitarian missions in any part of the world.

An additional €90 million will be spent on a further two replacement ships. These will be 80m (262ft) long and similar to the largest vessels in the current fleet.

The move is part of a plan to replace three of the oldest vessels in the Naval Service, the LÉ Emer, LÉ Aoife and LÉ Aisling, which were commissioned nearly 30 years ago and are coming to the end of their working lives.These vessels are scheduled to be decommissioned between next year and 2010.

A specialist group of senior civil servants and officers from the Naval Service and Army is to bring recommendations to Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea on the replacement vessels.

Mr O'Dea is expected to bring the proposals to Cabinet by the middle of this year, with the first ship to come into service by the end of 2009. At present there are eight vessels in the Naval Service fleet. Based in Haulbowline in Cork Harbour, the fleet's main duties involve coastal and fishery patrols.

One of the three new vessels is expected to be a 120m (394ft) "enhanced naval vessel" which will be one-third larger than the largest existing ship in the fleet.

The requirement for a larger vessel has been prompted by a variety of additional needs identified by the Naval Service, including a worsening in weather conditions in Irish coastal waters.

An application by Ireland to have a proposed extension to the continental shelf could require patrols in an area 13 times the present patrol area up to 1,300km (800 miles) off the west and southwest coast.

Studies and records by the Naval Service and Met Éireann also indicate that weather conditions off the Irish coast, seen as some of the worst in the world, are deteriorating further, and that a larger capacity vessel is required. The new vessel will operate mainly on coastal patrol duties, but it will also have a significant cargo-carrying capacity. This will allow it to be used to transport equipment abroad for Defence Forces peacekeeping duties, including armoured personnel carriers such as the MOWAG vehicles operated by the Defence Forces.

At present, the Defence Forces hire commercial cargo ships to transport equipment overseas.

It is also envisaged the larger ship will be able to carry emergency supplies and equipment as part of EU-led humanitarian reaction forces.

The Government has already moved to establish a rapid reaction capability, and is in the process of stockpiling emergency equipment at two locations in Meath and southern Italy.

In recent years, Irish naval vessels have gone on longer voyages.

Last year, the LÉ Eithne had a three-month deployment to Argentina, while the LÉ Róisín has been on a five-week deployment to Athens and the Mediterranean.

© 2007 The Irish Times
 

contedicavour

New Member
The 120m ship would be a small LPDH vaguely comparable to the NZ Canterbury ? Or is it more a huge OPVH ?
Anyway, congratulations for improvements to the Irish Navy's size and worldwide cruises.
One final question : what about new helicopters for these ships ? NH-90 ?

cheers
 

turin

New Member
The 120m ship would be a small LPDH vaguely comparable to the NZ Canterbury ? Or is it more a huge OPVH ?
Sounds like something along the lines of the danish Absalon-class. They can be used for patrol-purposes, but also come with a ro/ro-deck. These vessels are some 140 m long and displace some 6,000 tons.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Sounds like something along the lines of the danish Absalon-class. They can be used for patrol-purposes, but also come with a ro/ro-deck. These vessels are some 140 m long and displace some 6,000 tons.
Makes sense for a country with several (though small) UN deployments around the world. Though I do have a few doubts on how suitable to oceangoing conditions is a "heavy-up" ship like the Absalon (fine for the Baltic though).

cheers
 

regstrup

Member
Though I do have a few doubts on how suitable to oceangoing conditions is a "heavy-up" ship like the Absalon (fine for the Baltic though).
Don't have any doubts about ships like Absalon. A ship of that size will have no problems riding the waves for the Atlantic.

My old man, who is now a retired navalofficer, would rather have a storm at 10 beaufort in the Atlantic, than one in the Baltic Sea or the North Sea.

The reason is, that the waves in the Atlantic are big and round, while the waves are short and much more steep in the Baltic Sea and North Sea.
 

TerryD

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Not certain....

..but the descriptions of the ships in the Irish Times article seems to describe the Meko 200 MRV previously discussed by the Irish Naval Service and the two OPV's may be upgraded versions of the 80 m Roisin class.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I think the Irish Naval Service likes the MEKO 200 MRV, its more suited for their needs. However, I think the Irish Army would perfer the NZ MRV, its more of a ferry suited for their needs, and it has double the lane meters of the MEKO.

Like New Zealand, the Irish Air Service operates the helicopters. The Irish have recently bought several AB-139s instead of NH-90s. The Irish also operate Daulphins and EC-135s.

The MEKO 200 MRV is frigate sized, with a long helicopter deck aft without a hangar, and a higher superstructure to house approximately 150 troops. The NZ MRV is more of a ferry, which can house a few helicopters in its hangar with two landing zones on the helicopter deck, and can house 250 troops.

It will be interesting which way the cabinet goes. I prefer the ferry design as it carries twice as much for the army for a similar price.

I am curious as to who will build the ships. The OPVs may not be similar to the Roisins, they could be of a new class of similar size reflecting the shipbuilder.

Either way, the Irish navy will be improved.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
IMHO the Roisins don't use all their space well : no space for helo+hangar for a 80 metre long ship ... and the long structure in front which could house VLS for SAMs but seems empty

cheers
 
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