New Danish Frigates

[Tasman]

Thinking out loud:


3. Wang is security concious - and would dearly love the same control over the Malaccan as there is/will be in Danish waters - his. That could explain his interest of bringing VTS under his direct command. Perhaps is it that his concept of Danish waters isn't streaching from Kronstadt to Ushant, but to Darwin.......
And on his homepage there is a piracy briefing.

Fascinating to see that the Danish government sees its future navy operating so far afield.

Recently a Danish frigate (with a team of scientists on board) visited Hobart. Of course Denmark's Princess Mary is a Tasmanian so perhaps the Danish Navy wants to be in a position to protect her when she visits her home city! nfloorl:

Cheers

 

[Ths]

Yes the Crown Prince - her husband - is trained as a Navy SEAL and has done a tour in North East Greenland. So it might not be entirely coincidental he's been there.

 

[Tasman]

Yes the Crown Prince - her husband - is trained as a Navy SEAL and has done a tour in North East Greenland. So it might not be entirely coincidental he's been there.

He is very popular in Tasmania. He was involved in yacht racing in Oz and I think that is how he met his bride. I didn't realise he was a trained SEAL.

Denmark has had a long association with Hobart so far as ships are concerned. For many years Danish ice reinforced vessels (Thala Dan, Magga Dan, etc) operated out of Hobart in support of Australian Antarctic expeditions. This demonstrates to me, that although it may be small, Denmark is a true maritime country. So perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that the Danish government thinks beyond its immediate area in regards to sea power.

I look forward to a visit from one of the new 'patrol' frigates.

Cheers

 

[Ths]

Tasman: One of my old mates Ole Johansen might have sailed one of the ships - they were red Lauritzen boats - rolled like a drunken sailor. Seaworthy - yes, comfortable NO. He had a lopsided haircut as the bosun tried - unsuccesfully - to compensate... Something about heads rolling ....AND difficult to play snooker.

As to our Crown Prince: Well the jobdescribtion for royalty has become much harder in these terrorist times, they want to avoid a repetition of the Sarajevo incident, where Archduke Frantz Ferdinand - due to vanity - was sown into his uniform; looked swell; but he had forgotten the scissors.
So nowadays the requirement is to jump out of an aeroplane - without parachute of course - swim to the nearest landfall (towing the entire staff on a raft) - and drive 1000 miles on a dogsledge with said staff. (An attempt to dampen the administrative cost of the court)
They have a good dental plan; but gold can be bought to dearly.....:bum

 

[Grand Danois]

Just to preempt any confusion HRH The Crown Prince was trained by the Danish Navy Seal equivalent. Not the US Navy Seals.

Adding this article. Royal Navy is of course the Royal Danish Navy...

Danish warship should patrol hotspots

05.01.2007 Print article

The Royal Navy's top commander wants one of the new Danish warships to patrol the Indian Ocean

The head of the Royal Navy believes a new Danish warship could be best used as a patrol vessel in the Indian Ocean - specifically in the Arabian Sea where it would be close to hotspots in the Middle East and the African horn of Somalia and Ethiopia.

The navy has ordered a total of five warships from Maersk-owned Odense Steel Shipyard, and Rear Admiral Nils Wang of the Naval Command thinks at least one ship should be permanently deployed for peacekeeping duty in the Arabian Sea.

'If you hope to be within reasonable sailing time to where something serious happens, you shouldn't be positioned outside Tromsø, Norway,' Wang told daily newspaper Berlingske Tidende.

The navy currently has two of the ships, but the fifth is not expected to be delivered until 2012.

Wang believes a Danish warship on permanent global patrol would be a natural progression of the nation's active security policy. From the Arabian Sea, the ship could reach nearly all the hotspots in the eastern hemisphere within three days.

Wang said that in addition to military assignments the crew would also be able to help combat piracy and provide humanitarian assistance to Danish citizens.

'I can confirm that the foreign affairs ministry is placed under an unyielding requirement from our citizens to come and save them, regardless of how they've gotten into the situation they've found themselves in,' said Wang.

Defence Minister Søren Gade agrees that a permanently stationed ship in the Indian Ocean would be beneficial.

'Defence is an important tool for foreign policy and today the army conducts operations in places we wouldn't have dreamed of 10 years ago.'

The opposition Social Liberal party is also open to the idea of having a ship in the area.

'It's parliament that decides what operations the armed forces participate in, but I'm open to discussing it, especially if there are practical reasons for putting a ship in the Indian Ocean,' said Morten Helveg Petersen, the party's spokesman on defence issues.

Per Kaalund, the Social Democratic defence spokesperson, was less enthusiastic.

'We're not building patrol ships in order to send them to the Indian Ocean.'

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/99838.html

 

[swerve]

Built in Odense, eh? One of my ancestors was there 200 years ago, living in skibshusene, a "skibstømmermand" according to the 1801, 1834 & 1840 censuses. Rasmus Jensen: his sons were Rasmussens, same as my grandmother, & sailors or same as dad. Could have built previous generations of the Danish navy.

 

[Ths]

Maybe; but they were mainly build at "Orlogsværftet" in Copenhagen.
Please correct if anyone is better informed.

 

[BoabDilDK]

The Shipyard in Odense was founded in 1917. Before that there may have been a small production of fishing vessels but nothing bigger than that.

Odense is situated in the center of an large island and was only connected to the sea through a small river leading into a shallow fjord.

Ships in the middleages moored in the fjord and unloaded their goods via small boats on the river. "Skibshusene" was the name given to the small warehouses at the port. In the 18th century a canal was dug that connected Odense to the fjord but the city never became an important port.

The ships of the RDN were all constructed at Orlogsvaerftet in Copenhagen before WW2. Later different shipyards were used with the majority built at Aalborg Værft.

Interestingly enough these are the first navy ships built at Odense Værft and the first made by A.P.Møller/Maersk.

The more I read on this subject, the more I get convinced these 5 ships represent a complete change in Danish naval doctrine. It seems we are going away from a territorial defense almost completely and entering into a world of sea lane protection.

The navy has ordered a total of five warships from Maersk-owned Odense Steel Shipyard, and Rear Admiral Nils Wang of the Naval Command thinks at least one ship should be permanently deployed for peacekeeping duty in the Arabian Sea.

'If you hope to be within reasonable sailing time to where something serious happens, you shouldn't be positioned outside Tromsø, Norway,' Wang told daily newspaper Berlingske Tidende.

Arabian sea tells me it will be Diego Garcia more than Perth, even though patrolling north of Australia doesnt seem unlikely.

What is furthermore interesting in this article are the statements made by Morten Helveg Petersen from the social liberal party, supporting this deployment. This is the party that througout the cold war spoke in favour of a demilitarisation of Denmark - what a change. I read their programme of principles and it mentions nothing of this permanent deployment or even a white water fleet.

In fact no open political discussion seem to have taken place on the subject within in any party or in parleament before the order of these ships.

Are we looking at another legacy of Mr. Møller? No one stands to gain more from this deployment than Maersk shipping. Missile protection in the Arabian Sea and the Persian Gulf must give a good insurance bonus.

Maersk are building the ships, on time and on budget at a very favourable price - another first. And finally this does explain many of the changes made to the navy in the last defense plan (submarines and mines).

If right this is a political masterpiece by the old man, one that could survive even that monstrous operahouse he had constructed on top of our old dear Orlogsvaerft.

 

[BoabDilDK]

On the question of the missiles selected I found this post in the Navalhistory forum (warning Danish):

Et par klarificeringer der måske kan berolige debatørene på denne side vedr. Patruljeskibenes (PS) udrustning. Oplysningerne i de anførte links er ikke korrekte.

Det er korrekt at vores fokus i SMK er på den amerikanske missilfamilie med Standard Missile 2 (SM-2) Block IIIA som den foretrukne kandidat. På kort rækning vil dette system blive sekunderet af ESSM. Planen er at udruste PS med det amerikanske MK41 Vertical Launching System med 32 celler i den lange version. Disse kan rumme SM-2 samt andre missiler, som eventuelt senere kunne komme på tale. I tilknytning til MK41 launcheren vil PS blive udrustet med 4 Flex containerpositioner på våbendækket. To af disse vil blive monteret med MK56 launchere for ESSM monteret i Flex Containere. De øvrige to containerpositioner vil rumme AHWCS containere for Harpoon Block II missiler. Samlet set vil hver PS kunne medføre 72 missiler fordelt således: 32 stk. SM-2 Block IIIA, 24 stk. ESSM og 16 stk. Harpoon Block II.

Det er korrekt som det anføres på Johnny E. Balsveds fortrinlige hjemmeside, at sensorvalget ikke er truffet endnu. Valget står mellem to stærke kandidater: Det hollandske APAR/SMART-L system og det britisk/australske SAMPSON/CEAMOUNT system. Disse systemer vil levere luftvarsling ud til ca. 400 km og vil samtidig være i stand til at kontrollere et stort antal luftforsvarsmissiler (SM-2 og/eller ESSM) samtidig.

SMART-S Mk2 er en fortrinlig volume search radar til afstande ud til ca. 250 km. Som bekendt er den valgt til ABSALON-kl., men den er ikke kandidat til PS.

Hvad angår artilleri vil PS forskib strukturelt blive forberedt til 127mm M/02. Hvorvidt denne anskaffes indledningsvis beror på en operativ og økonomisk prioritering. Såfremt der indledningsvis ikke monteres en 127mm pjece vil PS i stedet i blive udrustet med en OTO Melara Super Rapido 76mm M/85 i A-positionen. Denne vil ikke være i container men vil blive monteret på en mellemring på 127mm fundamentet. I modsætning til ABSALON-kl. indrettes forreste CIWS position (B-positionen) med en containerposition, således at vi er frit stillet med hensyn til bestykning dér. Der kan enten blive tale om (endnu) en 76mm M/85 eller Søværnets nye CIWS; Oerlikon Contraves Millenium 35mm M/04. På hangartoppen agter vil PS altid have en CIWS. CIWS pjecens sokkel indeholder al styringsfunktionalitet og power supply og den er ikke dækgennemtrængende. Sokkelens basis svarer i princippet til en standard 10 fods ISO container med ”twist-locks”. Pjecen vil således nemt kunne flyttes. Skal den anvendes i en containerposition vil den blive monteret på et særligt containerdæksel med twist-locks.

I tilknytning til ovenstående vil PS blive udrustet med et antal Stinger batterier samt 12,7mm TMG i rekylfri affutager.

På undervandssiden planlægges PS udrustet med de samme sensorer og våben som ABSALON-kl.

Jeg håber at ovenstående har bidraget til at bringe lidt klarhed (og fakta) i debatten.

Med venlig hilsen

Torkil Lave Nissen

http://pub50.bravenet.com/forum/4287808284/show/512263

Commander Torkil Lave Nissen is Project Manager, Air Defense on the PS project.

I apologise for it being in danish, if I find time I will try to make a translation later.

 

[Ths]

Thanks Boabdil for the background and for bringing us up to speed on the air defence systems - straight fro the horses mouth.

It seems like the ships expect serious opposition and are willing to fight it.
To me it seem like the ship for the USN to clear a hostile coast for shore missile batteries - the ones that keep carriers of all ilks at a distance: They are cheap, variable drought, and well armed. It will be interesting if they can reload at sea from the command ship.

I very much agree that the RDaN is turning one propeller full aft and the other full ahead.
After the distraction of about 100 years of German and Russian naval power, they seem to concentrate on real business.

I especially liked Wangs remark about Tromsø; which shows he considers the Russian White Sea Fleet a spend force - and they will have to contend with the Norwegean Nansen-class.

The reason the opera was build there was perhaps not so much Orlogsværftet; but B&W - Maersk has always hated that yard (never ordered a ship from it) - so putting a lot of concrete on top of it makes certain they won't build ships again. The City of Copenhagen nicely avoided the very costly subject of cleaning the land from the polution of several hundred years of shipbuilding.

 

[Grand Danois]

I'd guess assignments like TF150 at the Horn of Afriaca is what Wang has in mind.

 

[Ths]

Grand Danois: That might very well be the case!

 

[Grand Danois]

Contracts have been signed for most items - worth 4000 million DKR.

Sorry for posting in Danish, but it is not that spectacular. Just confirmation that contracts for the items discussed here have been signed.


Aftale om patruljeskibene på plads
Den samlede ordre på de ny patruljeskibe er på plads med en række hovedleverandører. Blandt dem er Odense Staalskibsværft A/S.

08-01-2007 kl. 13:23

Kort før jul kunne Søværnets Materielkommando indgå den afsluttende aftale med Odense Staalskibsværft A/S, der skal bygge de patruljeskibe, som i stort omfang baserer sig på designet for de Fleksible Støtteskibe, som værftet leverede til Søværnet i 2004 og 2005.

Arbejdet med skibsdesignet blev afsluttet i efteråret 2006, hvorefter det endelige grundlag og pris for skibsprogrammet kunne forhandles færdigt og godkendes af begge parter.

Samtidig blev kontrakterne med en stribe af programmets øvrige hovedleverandører indgået kort før jul. Blandt kontrakterne kan nævnes:

* Skibsplatform. Kontrakt med Odense Staalskibsværft A/S (Danmark) om konstruktion, bygning og levering af tre patruljeskibe. Byggeriet begynder i 2008, og alle tre skibe skal være leveret til Forsvaret i 2011. Skibene forventes klar til operativ indsats inden udgangen af 2012.

* Områdeluftforsvar. Kontrakt med Thales (Holland) om levering af tre systemer til områdeluftforsvar. Leverancen omfatter SMART-L luftvarslingsradarer og APAR ildledelsesradarer (Active Phased Array Radar). Rækkevidden af luftvarslingsradaren er cirka 400 km.

* Missillauncher. Kontrakt med Lockheed Martin (USA) om tre MK 41 Vertical Launch Systems for affyring af blandt andet missiler af typen Standard Missiles SM2 til brug mod luftmål.

* Sonar. Kontrakt med ATLAS (Tyskland) om tre skrogmonterede, aktive søge- og angrebssonarer til bekæmpelse af ubåde.

* Pansring. Kontrakt med Roshield (Danmark) om pansring af dele af skibene for derved at øge både personel- og materielsikkerheden.

* Ildledelsessigter. Kontrakt med SAAB AB (Sverige) om CEROS ildledelsessigter til brug for primært nærluftforsvarskanon og søværnets standard 76 mm kanon og sekundært for søværnets standard kortholdsmissiler af type ESSM.

* Kommunikationssystem. Kontrakt med SAAB AB (Danmark) om skibenes kommunikationssystemer. Herunder det kommunikationsnetværk, der forbinder de interne og eksterne kommunikationskanaler.

Med de indgåede kontrakter er der disponeret over cirka 4 milliarder kroner ud af patruljeskibsprogrammets samlede budget på cirka 4,7 milliarder.

http://forsvaret.dk/FMT/Nyt+og+Presse/patruljeskibe080107.htm

 

[Ths]

Thanks Grand Danois

 

[KIJ]

I've been wondering if the VLS-capacity is sufficient for these frigates, if the capability is ever going to be used. One could argue, that a frigate, deployed in the Mediterranean (as it's suggested by a danish admiral), should be armed with 8 Tomahawks and 24 SM-2 Block IIIA, to make give the ship capability to support deployed troops, or take out terrorist-camps, and stuff like that, which could be likely scenarios, in that part of the world.

But would 24 long-range AAW missiles provide a decent defence, if the ship would be attacked by a squadron of fighter-planes from a country like Iran ?

Another question could be, why deploy a frigate in the Mediterranean, if it's without (or with limited) land-attack capability ?

 

[contedicavour]

Another question could be, why deploy a frigate in the Mediterranean, if it's without (or with limited) land-attack capability ?

Well, although having TLAM or SCALP Naval is the ideal configuration for land attack, a ship can still be useful in the Med or even in the Persian Gulf for its anti-ship missiles, SAMs, ASW, and with its main gun. Our 127mm guns are being configured with guided ammo with a range of 100+ km. Our Teseo Mk2A (SSMs) also have a secondary role for land attack, although max range is "only" 180km. Only a limited number of navies will ever be able to afford cruise missiles.

cheers

 

[Ths]

KIJ: I think the primary objective is keeping terrorist mucking about on land in those remote areas. The concern is for attacks on ships - and there the 3 inch gun is abundant for their dingies.

 

[Grand Danois]

I've been wondering if the VLS-capacity is sufficient for these frigates, if the capability is ever going to be used. One could argue, that a frigate, deployed in the Mediterranean (as it's suggested by a danish admiral), should be armed with 8 Tomahawks and 24 SM-2 Block IIIA, to make give the ship capability to support deployed troops, or take out terrorist-camps, and stuff like that, which could be likely scenarios, in that part of the world.

But would 24 long-range AAW missiles provide a decent defence, if the ship would be attacked by a squadron of fighter-planes from a country like Iran ?

Another question could be, why deploy a frigate in the Mediterranean, if it's without (or with limited) land-attack capability ?

Well, my reply look a lot like Contes. If you look at European frigates and destroyers they are fitted out according to their mission. The Horizon and Type 45 carry no land attack missiles like Scalp or TLAM (yet), but are heavy on long range SAMs. A land attack FREMM carry a loadout of Scalp for land attack and Aster 15 for self defence.

Mixing them detracts the utility for both roles. With the caveat that it depend on the foe and the allied ships it is working with. If the Danish frigates get CEC they would be able to "pool" their missiles with Burkes and Type 45s. Then it is less sensitive to loadout configuration.

Working with less capable ships or without CEC, it would be best to specialise the loadout.

To take it to the extreme:

• AAW - 24 ESSM, 24 SM-2 IIIA and 8 SM-6. And where to place potential SM-3?
  
  
• Land attack - 24 ESSM for self defence, probable 127mm Mk45 mod 4 with ERGM rounds - if they're fielded, 8 SM-2, 24 TLAM IV, 8 (16?) Harpoon II.

Savvy? :smooth

So you're somehow right that 32 VLS cells is a tad out of balance. Actually it could be really practical if there was room to ditch the Mk56 launchers at some point and replace with two more strike length Mk41. Perhaps as part of an ATBM upgrade... (?) It is underconfigured considering the sensors. Well, we'll have to wait to see the layout of the weapons deck...

By the way. IIRC that Danish admiral was talking about the Indian Ocean - not the Med.

 

[Ths]

What I think Wang is looking at is:

Danish leadership of a fleet of vessels from a coalition of the willing in a sideshow.

Any admiral worth his brine is looking towards the next stripe. And let's be realistic: The only way a Danish admiral will become a 2 or 3 striper in an OPERATIONAL command is for him to command of a multinational task force.

Experience on that level is going to be vital if Denmark is to take general command of the Baltic Sea - which I guess is the plan.

And if you can get that at the price of one Nansen-class .....

 

[Grand Danois]

Btw, there is a lot of speculation in previous post.

What I think Wang is looking at is:

Danish leadership of a fleet of vessels from a coalition of the willing in a sideshow.

Any admiral worth his brine is looking towards the next stripe. And let's be realistic: The only way a Danish admiral will become a 2 or 3 striper in an OPERATIONAL command is for him to command of a multinational task force.

Like TF 150, hehe.

Experience on that level is going to be vital if Denmark is to take general command of the Baltic Sea - which I guess is the plan.

And if you can get that at the price of one Nansen-class .....

Now, this is your speculation...

Anyway, it's closer to 1½-2 Nansens. And their helos are probably included in that figure.