Get your war on' down in the Horn

[DragonKing786]

Better them than the ICU. The ICU will just breed a new training ground for Al-Qaeda, it must be whiped out.

Please., Big-E not everyone is a terrorist., I like Islamic law, I'm muslim that makes me terrorist.,?!?! US and others spred alot of propaganda they be-hiding behind this and that I just don't but it at all. They have said time and again they dont like OBL., they never wanted to accept him onces he left SA., the facts right their but it's you who have to decide who to listen to., and remember lke pakistan govt., not every govt speaks the truth., take mossad "war by deception"., this is what piss'in me off about western mentality, if you don't like us leave us alone., and go somewhere else it's that simple., US just said they will maintain a long presence in the ME., Govt., their we all know are puppets but you think the people their like it NO!!! US supported Saddam a tyrant I have videos of Donalds Rumsfield meeting him., and when he didn't long fit US plans they trash him like Osama. Heck., their are Somali's living in Chicago I know and they went to Somalia a year ago., and liked the ICU and things that they are doing which decreased internal fightings., etc, now they are cursing the US and Ethopia for disturbing the peace their, you can choose to listen to who ever you want., BBC did a reporting their and they were surpirsed at the stability that ICU had bought and praised them.

I stand by the ICU cause they brought stability., and prosecuted corrupt warlords, this war is being fought cause US., and Co. doesn't want islamic govt. (again it's not people whos deciding what they want it's westerners)., same in Iraq I have Blogs of people their writing that they rather have Saddam back sine he had lids on everything.,

 

[Big-E]

Please., Big-E not everyone is a terrorist., I like Islamic law, I'm muslim that makes me terrorist.,?!?! US and others spred alot of propaganda they be-hiding behind this and that I just don't but it at all.

Please Drago, don't blanket me with the NOI's talking points. You know very well I didn't say or imply that.

My problem with Sharia law is the fundamentalist view it promotes. That would be like having Jerry Falwell and his clan dictating morality punishable by death... No thanks. The Wahabbist movement is the greatest catalyst for Al-Qaeda and the ICU will set up Madrasahs. These institutions provide the recruitment pool of our enemies. The UN report shows who backs the ICU and that support comes with a militant agenda. It's not hard to see the writing on the wall... cough...Taliban

I stand by the ICU cause they brought stability., and prosecuted corrupt warlords, this war is being fought cause US., and Co. doesn't want islamic govt. (again it's not people whos deciding what they want it's westerners)., same in Iraq I have Blogs of people their writing that they rather have Saddam back sine he had lids on everything.,

Iraq is irrelevent to this discussion. Saddam had nothing to do with Sharia law or the ICU. The reasons for this war being fought have little to do with the US. It has more to do with Ethiopia wanting territorial expansion and the protection of it's populace from radical Islam. Having been unable to subdue Eritrea she will be much more succesful against the ICU forces. This poorly armed, rag tag force isn't adapting to learn the art of guerilla warfare in the face of superior forces. If the ICU expects to survive they had better quit digging trenches and start melting into the coutry side. They are taking rather heavy losses.

 

[radiosilence]

The UN report shows who backs the ICU....

Which UN report is that? Can you post it , couldn't find any UN report stating who is supporting the ICU....

 

[Big-E]

Which UN report is that? Can you post it , couldn't find any UN report stating who is supporting the ICU....

Here ya go... http://www.cfr.org/publication/12021/

 

[radiosilence]

Here ya go... http://www.cfr.org/publication/12021/

Per your link.

The report's sources are unclear and doubts have been raised as to the report's credibility.

 

[Big-E]

Per your link.

That link was just the org posting it. You wanted the whole report and you got it. What more do you want? The UN accepts it as it is their analysis. Your the one who wants us to believe UN reports... remember.

 

[Waylander]

I guess the UNISOMs headed by US forces giving their lives to feed the people and trying to bring some order to this society meant nothing.

Because of this I wrote "after '91". I honour all men who gave their lives in Somalia but in the end we pushed out and what NGOs did afterwards is more than just a good try but it has been and is still not nearly enough to solve the problems of the people their.

 

[Big-E]

Because of this I wrote "after '91". I honour all men who gave their lives in Somalia but in the end we pushed out and what NGOs did afterwards is more than just a good try but it has been and is still not nearly enough to solve the problems of the people their.

But the problem is that the western world closed their eyes while anarchy ruled in Somalia after '91.

It sure sounds like you think we did nothing after 91'. You do know that UNOSOM I & II were after that (Black Hawk Down). There is no Western solution for these people. With the addition of Ethiopia to this conflict the whole region is going to go up in flames. All we can do is back the winner. Unless Eretria comes all out in this conflict the ICU is going to get slaughtered.

 

[Waylander]

Yeah, the normal relatively useless UN mission with troops from 3rd world countries which finance their army with those missions.

 

[swerve]

It sure sounds like you think we did nothing after 91'. You do know that UNOSOM I & II were after that (Black Hawk Down). There is no Western solution for these people. With the addition of Ethiopia to this conflict the whole region is going to go up in flames. All we can do is back the winner. Unless Eretria comes all out in this conflict the ICU is going to get slaughtered.

Have you checked what Ethiopia is doing? Fighting anyone who stands up to them, skirting towns, & ignoring any clan troops (i.e. most of the ICU forces) who flee. They've stated publicly that they'll leave alone any clan which keeps out of the fighting, or gives up. They're deliberately not slaughtering the ICU troops.

Why do you think that is? My guess is that they want to leave ordinary Somali clan forces intact, because they expect that after this demonstration of power, those clans will see it as in their interests to stomp anyone who advocates jihad against Ethiopia, or any foreigners who set up in Ethiopia, or . . . . you get the idea. They see this as something like what we used to do in Hadhramaut, the North-West Frontier, & similar wild tribal areas. Leave the mad buggers to live their own lives (& make sure they know that's what you'll do), but wave the big stick when they get uppity. Mostly, this results in them seeing sense & restraining their own wilder elements, & being unwelcoming to interfering foreigners.

 

[Big-E]

I just saw BBC reporting that the Islamists have fled Mogadishu. They finally got some sense.

 

[merocaine]

I just saw BBC reporting that the Islamists have fled Mogadishu. They finally got some sense

Yeah just seen that on the web, 3000 troops pulled out in a convoy, heading into Southern Somalia. In a telephone interview there Commander said he did'ent want to incure civilian causlties in a fight for the city, also I guess if your going to try and fight a hit and run campain your dont want your troops bottled up in the city. Its interesting, it looks like a lot of the Clans that had declared for the ICU, have switched allegence once the Eytiopian backed goverment has arrived. So i guess this whole Islambic tag is pretty much a overblown thing, most of the members were never really Islambic, it was just a convinent way of keeping the peace (while it lasted).
I would guess the goverment wont last to long once its muscle heads back to the border, those clans will take it apart.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1979362,00.html

Salad Gabayre, a clan militia commander in the Sinai district, said elders were calling for young men to form militias to protect their neighbourhoods.

A well-known clan leader, Hussein Haji Bod, asked people to remain calm and strengthen security. "Elders and scholars will hold a meeting today to discuss the future of the capital," Mr Bod said.

No mention of the goverment here..... could get messy if the goverment trys to throw there weight around.

 

[merocaine]

a good article in the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/28/w...&en=ef456048be1e45de&ei=5094&partner=homepage

 

[contedicavour]

A few thoughts... I'm Italian and since my country was present there in colonial times I've followed with a lot of attention what's going on in Somalia and Ethiopia.

> Ethiopia isn't looking for a coastline... it relies on Djibouti and Somaliland's and Puntland's smaller harbours for import/export.

> Somalia is more than ever a battleground for foreign interests : Ethiopia vs Eritrea (with both armies present in Somalia) and US vs extremist Islamist movements. Even more, fighting in Somalia is useful to distract public opinion in more or less dictatorial Eritrea and Ethiopia.

> Ethiopia really does fear ethnic and religious-inspired movements because of the country's mix of religions (half Christian half Muslim) and ethnics (Tigray vs Amharic vs Oromo vs Ogadeni...). So crushing Somali nationalism and Islamic extremism is vital for Ethiopia's survival as a unitary (though federal) state.

> Militarily, the UIC didn't stand a chance in open field battles. Ethiopia has 500 T55 and T62 and 200 BRDM/BTR60, 2 dozen Hind attack helicopters, besides a dozen modernized MIG23s, another dozen SU25s, 10 SU27 and about 20 MIG21s. However the UIC could have tried to make a stand inside Mogadishu, by running the terrible urban guerrilla that we witnessed during the UN mission in 1993. It is thus strange that the UIC melted away and didn't stand and fight in Mogadishu. Which brings me to the conclusion : may be we all overestimated the strength of the UIC which relied on the foreign media to depict it as a strong motivated fighting force ? Or may be the militias are hiding and we may still hear of them...

cheers

 

[merocaine]

However the UIC could have tried to make a stand inside Mogadishu, by running the terrible urban guerrilla that we witnessed during the UN mission in 1993. It is thus strange that the UIC melted away and didn't stand and fight in Mogadishu. Which brings me to the conclusion : may be we all overestimated the strength of the UIC which relied on the foreign media to depict it as a strong motivated fighting force ? Or may be the militias are hiding and we may still hear of them...

we can be thankfull they did'ent make a stand, the slaughter would have been terrible. I suspect that if they had stayed the Clans would have turned on them rather than have there city destroyed by the Ethiopians. Better to make your stand on ground where you have better footing.
The other thing they probley want to preserve the core of there forces for a gurilla campain.

 

[Rich]

we can be thankfull they did'ent make a stand, the slaughter would have been terrible. I suspect that if they had stayed the Clans would have turned on them rather than have there city destroyed by the Ethiopians. Better to make your stand on ground where you have better footing.
The other thing they probley want to preserve the core of there forces for a gurilla campain.

Or a bunch of rich kid foreign element decided they weren't cut out to be soldiers after all. The UIC is just another Somali street gang and certainly no match for a professional army with armor, artillery, and air power. I bet 1/2 of the UIC jumped into their Benz's and drove home to Saudi and UAE after having their big adventure and whats left is the school kids the Mullahs sent barefoot to the front, "ever notice how these fundamentalist leaders never fight themselves and/or are always taken prisoner alive"?

Dragon if you like Islamic Law so much then why are you living in Chicago USA?

Its true Ethiopia has access to port facilities but that's never quite the same as having your own port is it? And who knows what they have to pay to allow export of their coffee crop, which their economic survival depends on. Beside a United Somalia with a hostile fundamentalist Govt. would probably shut down their access to the northern ports eventually, and probably would have eventually started or assisted a ethnic cleansing campaign against the non-Muslim eastern Africa population on the order of the Sudan.

I admire the Ethiopian campaign up to this point. On the Political front they have split their enemies nicely and then executed a well planned attack, leaving the city street fighting to allied Somali militiamen.

This is subtle planning and execution of an order higher then what a Africa military is usually capable of. I sense a strong and hidden American involvement here. Outstanding work for everyone involved.

 

[merocaine]

Mullahs sent barefoot to the front, "ever notice how these fundamentalist leaders never fight themselves and/or are always taken prisoner alive"?

except for that Sadrist Aide that was killed the other day when resisting arrest with an AK.

Or a bunch of rich kid foreign element decided they weren't cut out to be soldiers after all. The UIC is just another Somali street gang and certainly no match for a professional army with armor, artillery, and air power. I bet 1/2 of the UIC jumped into their Benz's and drove home to Saudi and UAE after having their big adventure

wow I'd love to know where you get your info dude, you must be in the CIA or something

This is subtle planning and execution of an order higher then what a Africa military is usually capable of. I sense a strong and hidden American involvement here. Outstanding work for everyone involved.
2 Hours Ago 08:50 AM

Ok the only reason the Ethiopia managed it is cause the US showed em how, wow, nice claiming an Ethiopian victory as your own.

 

[contedicavour]

One thing is very likely to happen ... renewed guerrilla efforts in both urban and rural/bush environments, especially in the territories of the clans closest to those of the leading UIC militiamen.

Ethiopia did a wonderful job moving its and the TNG's troops into position to encircle and besiege Mogadishu while leaving a couple of roads open so that the UIC could retreat without being forced to make a final suicidal stand.

Now the real issue is whether the TNG and the former warlords now turned into government ministers can administer the country and resist guerrilla warfare. Ethiopia most likely will refuse to get involved into this phase of low intensity warfare, though it will probably keep a few Hinds attack helos and MI8 transport helos for rapid reaction interventions. Oh, and a couple of armoured regiments with T62 and BRDM close enough to Mogadishu to intervene in case of a major attack on the presidential palace (good old Villa Somalia of colonial memory...)

cheers

 

[Rich]

except for that Sadrist Aide that was killed the other day when resisting arrest with an AK.

I was talking about the other 99.9%. But technically your right.

wow I'd love to know where you get your info dude, you must be in the CIA or something

You got any better information or are you just going to be a smart ass? BTW read the rule about the one liners. There are anywheres from 8,000 to 10,000 Foreign fighters in Somalia fighting for the UIC right now. That they reflect the make up of Al Qaeda and the Taliban is an educated guess.

Ok the only reason the Ethiopia managed it is cause the US showed em how, wow, nice claiming an Ethiopian victory as your own.

It is fact that American advisers have been training Ethiopian forces. Actually before the late 70s we were the main military supplier for the country and gave them a lot of equipment and advise. Now post Cold War we are back in Ethiopia. Most of all post 9/11 when we cant tolerate another Taliban style terrorist supporting state in a law less country like Somalia. And I'm sure even someone as clueless as you Merocaine has noticed the lack of condemnation coming out of Washington. And a victory for the Ethiopian forces is a victory for the USA.

The Ethiopians are having the one thing happen that eluded them in all their civil wars, bush wars, and wars with Somalia. That one thing is success. They are having that success employing the same tactics we used in Afghanistan. That of alliance with local tribal leaders and militias, avoiding street fights in large cities, avoiding mass civilian casualties, using air power, artillery, and armor correctly and in mass. I dont think there is any question that American influence and arms have contributed greatly to the success of this offensive.

You may have a different point of view, tho you seem incapable of Intelligently expressing it, that I would be happy to listen to. As I would anyone else here. But posting ignorant, insulting one liner comebacks will end up getting you on ignore lists. So take a little time out, read the history of the region and the conflict, and then come back and try again.

 

[merocaine]

There are anywheres from 8,000 to 10,000 Foreign fighters in Somalia fighting for the UIC right now. That they reflect the make up of Al Qaeda and the Taliban is an educated guess.

you just made that up!! at most there is a couple of hundred. There is'ent even that many Somali UIC fighters!.

"Yusuf Ibrahim, an Islamist gunman until today, said around 3,000 hardcore followers decided to continue fighting against the government and Ethiopian troops and had left for Kismayo.

Other witnesses reported seeing a large number of foreign fighters in the convoys heading south. There were suggestions they were headed for a SCIC base at the southern tip of Somalia called Ras Chiamboni.

Islamist movement leaders had called on foreign Muslims to join their "holy war" against Ethiopia, a predominantly Christian nation. Hundreds were believed to have answered the call, according to reports."
From A.P

The Ethiopians are having the one thing happen that eluded them in all their civil wars, bush wars, and wars with Somalia

They won the Ogadan war in the late 70's driving the Somalis back over the border in some style.
Which I believe is the only decleared war that has occured between the two states.

I dont think there is any question that American influence and arms have contributed greatly to the success of this offensive.

What American arms??
The only thing I can think of is M109, which they bought in the 60's/70's, since then they've been Russian all the way. I have'ent been able to find anything on American Advisers in the country, do you have something?

But posting ignorant, insulting one liner comebacks will end up getting you on ignore lists

I did because you make stuff up (US arms and training, 10'000 forigen fighters, Ethiopia losing its wars against Somalia) and because you came out with this wierd little anti european rant at the start of the thread, which ignored your own countries history in Africa, which was way off topic and seemed designed to annoy people.

Ethiopia will have real dificulty in pulling its troops out, if they do the goverment will fall, if they dont they will be facing a hit and run campain, classic tar baby.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1980063,00.html

I would'ent be suprised if they forced the goverment to come to early terms with the UIC, a protacted civil war is the last thing they want to be involved in.