JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[uaf]

Russian plant to modernise engine for JF-17 Thunder
Itar-Tass
Nov 15, 2006 - 5:13:45 AM



ST. PETERSBURG: Russia’s St. Petersburg aircraft engine plant will modernise the RD-93 turbojet engine for the light Chinese FC-1 fighter plane Super-7 also known as JF-17.

This will increase the plane’s thrust by almost 10 percent. A thrust vectoring nozzle will add manoeuvrability to the plane.

A relevant contract is expected to be signed in November or December 2006, plant director general Alexander Vatagin told a press conference on Monday.

The plant is currently fulfilling orders under a contract signed in 2005 by Russia’s arms exporter Rosoboronexport and China for the supply of 100 RD-93 engines for the FC-1 Super 7 fighter planes, as well space parts for them for total sum of 267 million U.S. dollars. defensetalk.com

The plant has already supplied six engines and plans to supply nine more before the end of the year. The rest will be supplied by another plant.

Over the almost 50-year-lond history of cooperation with China, the plant has supplied different types of engines for MiG-15 planes and Mi-8, Mi-17, and Mka-28 helicopters. More than 500 engines are currently in operation on these and other aircraft, including 30 new-generation BK-2500 helicopter engines, designed and created by the plant’s specialists, to a tune of 20 million U.S. dollars.

Ok thrust vectoring that’s an interesting developing I never saw that side of the agreement , bit surprising to me.

What could be the reaction of people who was spreading doubts about this deal not officially yet but source is very much authentic.

 

[pshamim]

Russian plant to modernise engine for JF-17 Thunder
Itar-Tass
Nov 15, 2006 - 5:13:45 AM .

As much as I will like to believe the headline, I regret to say that it was changed. I have read the news too but no where it mentions JF-17.

Stay away from sensationalizing by changing the actual content of a report. Russia may upgrade the engines for JF-17 some day but this report does not mention that anywhere and only states FC-1 or Chinese planes.

 

[ghanz]

Good news for PAF as they will be getting 8 JF-17s next year!

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/airforce/Pakistan_eight_JF-17_fighter_jets10009093.php



[Admin Edit: Ghanz, please watch your spellings. Read the rules here: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php ]

 

[JF172006]

Prototype 4's changes as admitted by the Aeronautical Complex's website.


J-F 17 THUNDER
DETAILED SPECIFICATIONS




JF-17 Airframe Design



1. Aerodynamic Configuration

Bifurcated side air inlet.
New wing with ability of high angle of attack
Leading edge maneuvering flap
Trailing edge flap
Tip missiles
Twin Ventral Fin

Aerodynamic Changes in PT-4
2. New Landing Gear

Nose gear with steering
Main gear with paddle controlled hydraulic brakes and automatic anti-skid braking system
3. Comfortable Cockpit and Safe Escape System

Cockpit geometry conforming to US MIL Standard, suitable for 3% to 98% pilot anthropometrics
Single Piece stretch acrylic transparent canopy providing a good all around Field of View
Ejection Seat
Martin Baker high performance ejection seat
Canopy severance system for additional safety
French oxygen regulation system
4. New Environment Control System, providing:

Air supply to control cockpit pressure and temperature
Air supply for cooling Avionics
Air supply to pilot pressure suit
Air supply for windscreen defogging
Oxygen supply duration three hours
5. New Designed Flight Control System

JF-17 has composite flight control system comprising conventional controls with stability augmentation in roll and yaw axis and fly by wire in pitch axis.
Simple autopilot
Control system of lift increasing device, leading edge slats / flap and trailing edge flaps will be an automatic control system referring to air speed and angle of attack for improving aircraft maneuvering
6. New Electrical Power Supply System

Main power supply system will be 115V, 400Hz three phase AC and 27V DC combined system.
Essential power will be provided by a hydraulic driven AC / DC combined generator in case of Main System Failure
Emergency power will be provided by a set of batteries, in the event of engine flameout, for engine restarting, communication and navigation
7. Fuel System

Total internal fuel 5130 lb
Single point pressure refuelling system
External Fuel
One center line drop tank 800 liters
Two under wing drop tanks 800/1100 liters
8. Strength and Fatigue Life

JF-17 airframe is made of semi-monologue structure
High strength steel and Titanium alloy adopted partially at some critical places.
Max speed: 1350 KPH (Mach 1.8)
JF-17 aircraft would be designed, tested and proofed against the requirement tailored for MIL-A-8860 and Chinese National Military Specification GJB67-85
The desired fatigue life of the JF-17 airframe is 4,000 flight hours or 25 years
The period to first overhaul would be 1,200 flight hours
The Avionics Suite


The avionics suite will make the JF-17 as an effective weapon platform. The glass cockpit and hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls will reduce pilot workload. Accurate navigation and weapon aiming information on the head up display will help the pilot achieve his mission effectively. The multifunction displays will provide information on engine, fuel, hydraulics, electrical, flight control and environmental control system on a need-to-know basis along with basic flight and tactical information. The capability would be built around highly modern state-of-the-art avionics equipment, which is as follows:

Dual redundant two mission computers
Dual redundant 1553 Mux bus architecture
Multimode Pulse Doppler Radar with high power air-cooled transmitter and capable of tracking multiple targets with prioritized firing
Ring laser gyro inertial navigation system tied with GPS
Smart head up display with up front control panel. HUD minimum total Field of View is 25 degrees
Color video recording camera and video recorder (for SMFCDs)
Data Transfer Unit with digital map function
HOTAS
Three smart multi function color displays
Air Data Computer
R/Altimeter
IFF Interrogator/Transponder
ACMI
Standard Armament Interface Unit
Remote Interface Box
BVR Datalink
V / UHF Communication System (Qty 02)
Comm Datalink
All associated antennas
Warnings Computer
ILS
TACAN
RWR
MAWS
CFD
Other essential equipment like
Day/ night laser designator pod
Self Protection Jammer
IRST
FLIR
NVGs
Helmet Mounted Sight/Display
Weapons Capability
The aircraft would be fitted with modern Stores Management System incorporating accurate weapons delivery modes and solutions involving minimum pilot work load
The system would be based on Mil-Std-1760 architecture for all stations including the wingtip stations
The aircraft would be capable of carrying some of the most modern as well as conventional weapons, including:
70-100 Km range beyond visual range active missiles
Highly agile Imaging infra red short range missiles
Air to sea missiles
Anti radiation missiles
Laser guided weapons
Programmable delays cluster bombs
Runway penetration bombs
General purpose bombs
Training bombs
23 mm double barrel gun

Air-Air Configurations:


Air-Ground Configurations:

The aerodynamic changes for PT-4 is also a hyperlink of PAC's site u ppl may visit the site for details.
http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/jf17specifications.html

 

[atulbansal]

stuff to be noticed:
1) *JF-17 has composite flight control system comprising conventional controls with stability augmentation in roll and yaw axis and fly by wire in pitch axis*..... senior members pls elaborate
2) Only HMD/HMS and no Helmet Mounted Cueing System
3) Total payload- 3720kg & Internal fuel-2300kg with a max. external fuel load of 2x1100+800 ltr
4) No additional station for an EW/LDP---> doesnt this mean only one mission at a time?

 

[JF172006]

stuff to be noticed:
1) *JF-17 has composite flight control system comprising conventional controls with stability augmentation in roll and yaw axis and fly by wire in pitch axis*..... senior members pls elaborate
2) Only HMD/HMS and no Helmet Mounted Cueing System
3) Total payload- 3720kg & Internal fuel-2300kg with a max. external fuel load of 2x1100+800 ltr
4) No additional station for an EW/LDP---> doesnt this mean only one mission at a time?

Smart head up display with up front control panel. HUD minimum total Field of View is 25 degrees
Accurate navigation and weapon aiming information on the head up display will help the pilot achieve his mission effectively
Day/ night laser designator pod
Please read the post carefully

 

[JF172006]

Day/ night laser designator pod
Only generalized detailed information is given, perhaps a more detailed version can only be available for the buyers.
Please read the post carefully[/QUOTE]

 

[falconlover81]

Are their any reports of future upgrading of radars and avionics, and better EWS (electronic warfare suite)?

What weapons can be used on this plane any list?

About J-10, what plane can it counter in IAF aswell as JF-17? thankx

Dragonking as far as upgrades are concerned a new aircraft always has room for upgrades and the Thunder is no exception.As far as Radar is concerned there are unconfirmed reports that Pakistan is negotiating with the UK for Selex 500E AESA Radars for the Thunders although the initial batch will have chinese radars and avionics.weapons must be primarily chinese ranging from SD-10 BVRAAM which will be the primary BVR weapon of the thunder as far as WVRAAM is concerned PAF has a lot of choices like the A-Darter,IRIS-T and PL-9C.PGMS like FT-1,FT-3 and stand off weapons like the LS-6 glide bombs.
As far as the combo of JF-17 and J-10 is concerned it can take out any indian aircraft with ease and remember this is my own opinion dont ask for sources
my 2 cents

 

[n21]

Dragonking as far as upgrades are concerned a new aircraft always has room for upgrades and the Thunder is no exception.As far as Radar is concerned there are unconfirmed reports that Pakistan is negotiating with the UK for Selex 500E AESA Radars for the Thunders although the initial batch will have chinese radars and avionics.weapons must be primarily chinese ranging from SD-10 BVRAAM which will be the primary BVR weapon of the thunder as far as WVRAAM is concerned PAF has a lot of choices like the A-Darter,IRIS-T and PL-9C.PGMS like FT-1,FT-3 and stand off weapons like the LS-6 glide bombs.
As far as the combo of JF-17 and J-10 is concerned it can take out any indian aircraft with ease and remember this is my own opinion dont ask for sources
my 2 cents

Will the british be happy to integrate chinese avonics and weapon system with the radar?
Remember this would mean disclosing lot of things about the radar to the chinese and there would be uncle sam keep an eye on this.

 

[rabirizvi]

i dont think either british or chinese sources will give source codes to either of the parties for integration, so pakistan will have to use western(mostly american weapon that they just bougth) or south african weapons (i am presuming about south african as it was said that PAF was interested in them). i hope someone more learned can shed more lite on it

 

[csubaicai]

Listen my friend. ....I mean only them who are making the fighter know what its capabilities are. Its like people guessing how many coins I have in ma pocket. Some would say 3, other 5, others may even say 1. But only I know what I have in my pocket.
....

I think you are right,the specs of any fighter plane is absolutely military secret,Don't trust the specs published too much.

 

[BilalK]

I think the PAF will choose the weapon systems it wants for JF-17, and procure them through license-production and joint development MoUs. An example of this would be the South African 1999 offer of T-Darter BVRAAM development and production to PAF. Pakistan reportedly produces Raptor-series glide-bombs under the H-series, and integrated them onto the Mirage ROSE I, II and III. The R-Darter BVRAAM is reported to be the primary BVRAAM for the Mirage ROSE I.

The PAF will likely buy IRIS-T WVRAAMs for the F-16s, because it has already been integrated. IRIS-T may find itself on the Mirage ROSE I due to the Western avionics and radar in the plane. However the A-Darter will likely be procured with a joint-development and production agreement, so Pakistan can integrate it onto J-10 and JF-17. IMO by 2019 both the JF-17 and J-10 will be equipped with AESA radars - most likely Chinese. The F-16s may switch over to AESA as part of an extension upgrade or something.

So 36 F-16 Block 52+ & 60 F-16 MLU will likely be equipped with:

• AIM-120C5
• IRIS-T
• AIM-9M-1/2/8/9
• AIM-9L
• JDAM
• Harpoon Block II

The 36 J-10A/Bs & 150 JF-17s:

• SD-10
• R/T-Darter under AWC/NESCOM V-Series
• A-Darter under AWC/NESCOM series.
• PL-9C
• AIM-9M-1/2/8/9
• AIM-9L
• FT-1/3 PG-Bomb
• LS-6 PG-Glide Bomb
• Raptor I/II PG-Glide Bombs under AWC/NESCOM H-Series
• DPGM program by AWC/NESCOM
• YJ-8K & YJ-82K anti-ship missiles

The 70-odd Mirage VPA & ROSE I (* = ROSE I only), II & III

• R/T-Darter under AWC/NESCOM V-Series*
• MICA BVRAAM* (possibly)
• A-Darter under AWC/NESCOM series*
• IRIS-T WVRAAM* (possibly)
• AIM-9M-1/2/8/9*
• AIM-9L*
• FT-1/3 PG-Bomb
• LS-6 PG-Glide Bomb
• Raptor I/II PG-Glide Bombs under AWC/NESCOM H-Series
• DPGM program by AWC/NESCOM
• Exocet (Mirage VPA only)

 

[falconlover81]

i dont think either british or chinese sources will give source codes to either of the parties for integration, so pakistan will have to use western(mostly american weapon that they just bougth) or south african weapons (i am presuming about south african as it was said that PAF was interested in them). i hope someone more learned can shed more lite on it

I personally think any deal with the UK on AESA radars will carry the condition of TOT and without TOT Pakistan is going to reject the deal rightaway because the PAF wants technical knowhow of AESA radars for its future projects.If the deal is not sacrificed to political pressure i.e from the US and the UK the parent company of Selex i.e Galileo avionica must have no qualms over the deal as it has already assisted in the upgrades of mirages (ROSE-I,II,III).
As far as china is concerned i have no doubts in my mind whatsoever about the transfer of source codes from chengdu to kamra.its a done deal.
cheers

 

[Big-E]

I personally think any deal with the UK on AESA radars will carry the condition of TOT and without TOT Pakistan is going to reject the deal rightaway because the PAF wants technical knowhow of AESA

It doesn't make much sense for anyone to give ToT unless your going to buy ALOT of aircraft. If UK gives PAK AESA they need to be compensated because PAK will certainly be passing that info to the Chinese. In a couple years the market will be flooded with cheap knock offs competing with the originator. That will come full circle and bite them on the butt if they do it.

 

[swerve]

I personally think any deal with the UK on AESA radars will carry the condition of TOT and without TOT Pakistan is going to reject the deal rightaway because the PAF wants technical knowhow of AESA radars for its future projects.If the deal is not sacrificed to political pressure i.e from the US and the UK the parent company of Selex i.e Galileo avionica must have no qualms over the deal as it has already assisted in the upgrades of mirages (ROSE-I,II,III).
As far as china is concerned i have no doubts in my mind whatsoever about the transfer of source codes from chengdu to kamra.its a done deal.
cheers

Big-E is right on this. The UK won't give China access to its AESA technology, & would be sure that giving Pakistan ToT would guarantee it would end up in Chinese hands. Selex (BTW, Galileo isn't the parent company of Selex: both are part of Finnmeccanica Defence Electronics - http://www.finmeccanica.it/Holding/EN/Business/Elettronica_per_la_difesa/index.sdo ) is happy to sell Grifo, but that's relatively old technology, & China getting hold of its details is no big deal, but Vixen 500E is in a different category.

 

[BilalK]

JF-17 will probably get AESA, but likely Chinese and that too later on in the aircraft's service. Unless the PAF plans to go the whole Euro/Western route for JF-17's weapon systems or has the facilities to integrate diverse systems - it is very unlikely it'll go for Selex.

 

[falconlover81]

JF-17 will probably get AESA, but likely Chinese and that too later on in the aircraft's service. Unless the PAF plans to go the whole Euro/Western route for JF-17's weapon systems or has the facilities to integrate diverse systems - it is very unlikely it'll go for Selex.

Faisal I have been hearing lately that the 6th prototype of the Thunder which was tested like a month before had incorporated complete chinese avionics and still Pakistan sticks with the 4th prototype,the reason I presume the integration of western avionics and systems onto the 4th prototype and indeed if Pakistan decides to go for western avionics it might be able to persude UK for the AESA instead of going for PD'S.
The second point I wanted to discuss with you was about the news that i have been hearing lately.I mean i dont understand the point of acquiring decent WVRAAM'S from two different sources i.e A-Darter and the IRIS-T I mean cant we stick to either IRIS-T or A-Darter to equip all our fighter squadrons.
cheers

 

[himeed]

French consider Pakistan and India in same catagory like they give us Augusta 90B Sub and offering india the tech of destorying subs and Scorpion Subs which are much better than Augusta. May be the people you meet have their own views France is open to every one all they want their equipment sold at good rate. They are friendly to Pakistan but they are more friendly to thier business.
Ef2000 and Rafale both have software Glitch as i read on a website, address i dont remember. EF2000 is better in manoeuverablity and it is a miltirole Italy is also involved in the project so we can ask them but there will be a risks if other partners put pressure on Italy than......
While on the other hand Rafale has its own capabilites better than EF i.e bomber.
I think JF-17, Gripens with EF-2000 or Rafale in their lead will be a good combination.

Weare paying 5.1 billion $ for f-16 already, EF-2000 is way too expensive, we cant afford it,same case for Rafael-we cant afford, so right now we cant even think about purchasing these aircraft, we already spend a higher % of our GDP on arms than any other nation in the subcontinent (almost double of India),if we are to go in for EF-2000 and Rafael we'll be spending even more and frankly id prefer that money being spent elsewhere.

 

[falconlover81]

Ws-13 Completed Undergoing Trials

Guys recently a chinese website acknowledged the completion of the WS-13 engine and is under going flight trials for the verification of necessary parameters.i'll try to summarise the points that i have found about this engine.

1.It uses solid titanium alloy fan blades.
2.It has a digital authority control system.
3.It has a thrust of about 7.8.
4.It's length is about 4.14 metres.
5.It's diameter is about 1.02 metres.
6.Dry weight of the WS-13 is about 1,135 kg.
7.Maximum thrust of the engine is about is about 86.37 kn.
8.Cruise thrust is about 51.2 kn.
9.Needs an overhaul for every 810 hours.
10.Total life of the engine is about 2200 hours.
LINK:http://www.cnwnews.com/Html/soceity/society_js/2006-12/31/11391432.html

 

[Scorpion82]

Is the WS-13 proposed as a potential engine for the FC-1/JF-17? The specs look not very impressive to me, but the chinese go ahead and catch slightly up.