About the aircraft carrier plan of China

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PeoplesPoster

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Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think it was my very esteemed collegue, Galrahn that said something about the prospects of Africa and South America -

The only reason Africa isn't an important player on the international scene today is the social organization; but that says it all. Africa hasn't gotten its act together despite having had 20.000 odd years - no sign of them sobering up now - on the contrary.
Well, keep in mind the raid on African resources this century is going to happen despite, and most likely to the detriment, of the peoples in Africa. I agree the social organization is unlikely to change and that as entities, the governments in most parts of Africa are unlikely to grow much over the next century. Be aware though, that is just one more reason why external military power is going to be more important when dealing with Africa.

While I am sure there will be some who liken it to American imperialism, the reality is large corporations (not just western, but eastern as well) that find ways to cultivate resources from Africa and South America may have net revenues greater than the African or South American countries total GDP, and as requirements for precious resources grow, not only energy resources, but silver, titanium, and other natural resources where supply continues to drop while demand continues to increase; considering the existing corruption and local culture, it will make these places hot spots.

We are already starting to see this in the Gulf of Guinea off West Africa. As one example, MEND made a big deal this recent fall when they were able to block oil exports from Nigeria and single handedly stop the drop of oil prices taking place worldwide. Few Americans realize Nigeria had become the 5th largest exporter of energy resources to the US until October, and if it wasn't for energy output increases that had already kicked in from the Middle East and South America in early fall, gas would have soared well over $3.50 in the US at the pump.

It isn't an accident the media byline for the USS Albany's December return of its tour indicated that the 'second half of the tour was spent off West Africa,' because I'd bet the DoD was busy. The 30 gunboats armed with anti-tank guns, mortars, and 57mms involved in the Niger river delta battles of October 2nd and 3rd, and the October 5th announcement by MEND to send 500 fighters to the Niger River Delta probably got the DoD's attention. I guess it was coincidence that the same week the DoD gave Sao Tome and Principe an $18 million military radar system.

The new operational concept for Global Fleet Stations specifically reflects the need for a new strategy in operating in these less cooperative, yet vital trade regions. It is very smart for SOUTHCOM to take the lead in this initiative, because South America is going to need that kind of DoD focus over the next few decades if security is to be provided for the flow of goods by sea from South America. Remember, the largest armed paramilitary organization in the world isn't Al Queda, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc..., it is FARC. Those 100,000 Russian rifles Venezuela is buying this year, whose hands do you think those old rifles will be in, say in 5 years?

China is heading down the same road the US already lives on, and they are fully aware they are going to need force projection in far away places if they are going to sustain themselves on that road. For all the talk about China, you know the one thing that is rarely discussed is the current Chinese Fleet structure. It is not an accident virtually all the amphibious ships in the PLAN are apart of the Southern Fleet, far away from Taiwan. From media reports alone, I'd bet money most people think the amphibious ships would all be based 90 miles from the Taiwan coast, but instead they are mostly based in Zhanjiang.

The reason is obvious. Taiwan isn't an important factor in China's economic growth, but the areas starting in the South China Sea sure is.
 

PeoplesPoster

New Member
Mod edit:

One liners and derogatory comments are not welcome here. Read the forum rules before posting again, or you won't be here very long. AD
Very well.

I believe in all honesty that THS post was based solely on his opinion. His rather uninformed post smacks not only of ignorance but has racist undertones as well.

Thanks Mod!

Dearly,

Peoplesposter.

Mod edit: We keep an eye on EVERYONE. Nothing said by THS is overtly racist to me. Saying a piece of equipment is a piece of junk is not racist, but as you say needs to be justified and I've reminded him of that. The mods here have a policy of not banning people automatically (except in extreme cases) but warning first. Repeated breaches and ignoring warnings is what people are banned for. You've both be warned now... Cheers. AD.
 
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tphuang

Super Moderator
Galarn: great points. Totally agree with you.

To ths:
My conclusion is that that China within a reasonable time frame (say 10-20 years) will be able to:
1. Build a boat with a flat top that might impersonate a carrier.
2. They might operate some sort of fixed wing aircraft from said bucket - provided they aren't to critical on the issue of recovering planes and boat.
Here I've been generous in saying they will build a Phantom - which actually was a very good plane.
3. They might operate submarines that occationally won't blow up whenever they fire a missile.
4. The Missile might - on a good day, with strong westerly blizzard hit somewhere in the USA - and it cannot be excluded that it will actually detonate.
Is this kind of comment really needed?

To PeoplePosters
Again, please calm down. No need to turn this into a shouting match.

As for whether they have the necessary escorts for a carrier group. That really would depend on the progress of 093s, since PLAN believes in sub vs sub and most of the new surface combatants coming out are placing emphasis on air defence.
 

Mick73

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
China needs a blue water navy. This includes a small carrier fleet with escorts and submarines. The reason behind this is for protecting it's overseas interests in South America and Africa, plus local regional ones as well. They need carriers or in my opinion Helicopter Carriers for projecting force and safe guarding those interests because at the moment no one would do it for China besides the UN (then again not at all).

I think we will see a light carrier with limited fixed wing A/c and it would be more likely to carry helo's. This would be the safe option and this could be done a lot faster than having a more traditional fixed wing carrier design. Using this carrier design to developed the doctrine and skills required for future more capable design. This would greatly reduce the time needed for getting a ship operational and ready to assist oversea's nationals.
Getting this done would not be a problem for the Chinese at all.

I think the reasons for this belief of everything China makes it "junk" attitude is stupid. One of the reasons is that western countries want cheap disposible products that will be ok for 2-3 year then need replacing. Example of this would be clothing and household goods. People in the west more likely than not love to upgrade things in there homes and this part of the culture is like a virus which has spead to all socio-economic groups, so what the Chinese do supply the poorer groups cheap disposible products. People said it about the Japanese products then the Korean and now the Chinese. People need to get over this B/S. I live in China and I have seen many great products with popular western names made by Chinese people. Companies take advantage of the large labour pool and low wages, simple as that. You would be surpised what they do make here for the the oversea's market and it is really quite good.

I am looking forward to the future development of the Chinese blue water navy and this all unfolds.
 

lokyuen12345

New Member
China

Yes, China do really need a blue water navy.

And Taiwan is actually not the main boost growth, or vital part in current and even future China economy. But in the long run, Taiwan Advanced electronics technology would be much benefits in this economic section, and so as to PLA's future army modernization programs, remember that the lack of PLA is electronics also? esp advanced navigation system and firing control system, software also. If Taiwan and CHina be united, and it should happen in the near future, according to current political circumstances, China would be one big step closer to US's power, as the southern economic section is so strong (HK, Taiwan, and other cities near shores) that all the focus could just stay on the mainland, solve poverty or explore internal natural resources.

While South China Sea is now the only entrance for PLA navy to go into Pacific, and of coz oil tanks also (Due to East China Sea got blocked by Japanese and Taiwan). They do very indeed need a blue water navy to secure that path, and give power projection on Philipines, Vietnam, and Taiwan, meanwhile, also secure the oil resources under-ocean. Remind you that Philipines even don't get a fighter jet now.

So the need of carrier for CHina is imminent. Then the problem remains here is how they are going to get one. And what cost they have to pay.
 

lokyuen12345

New Member
If China goes blue water your just asking for an arms race.
I don;t think so.

And China is not a fool to compete Amercian forces, esp when there is no need to. First of all, nowadays political situation is very not similar to the Cold War, where each country keep guessing each other's intention, and fear the other to start a war first. Just like the movie of "The Sum of All Fear".

Nowadays, everythings are all very obvious. Each nation is not in hostile position towards each other, but in uncertain strategic and limited adversary relationship. China want to be Asian power to control Asian affairs, in copoeration with Russia of course. And with diplomatic power on affairs in Africa, Europe and S.America. The competition rising with US is not military, but diplomacy.

While military forces nowadays have very different role than ever before. To China ,they are not built to start a war, but with several effects:
i) Homeland security of course
ii) Power projection on potential threats
iii) Military Operation other than war (Keep rising in both US and China), that is, using military power to fully or partially affect, undermine or influence the other on major political issues.

Another military compeition (Like Cold War) is very unlikely to happen again, but the modernization of PLA is very necessary if China wants to fulfill the above 3 purposes.

In turns, that the deployment of future Chinese Aircraft Carrier would be something like:
Ship 1: Deploy around South China Sea
Ship 2: Deploy around East China Sea
Ship 3: Deploy in Pacific Ocean
And that would be very necessary.

They key point is China not like US, they don't need Super Power Projection Globally, just locally is very enough, and at the same time, she can let US continue to be world super power, with 2nd in position, archieving her diplomatic goal: "Peaceful & Harmonic World" Diplomacy.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
If China goes blue water your just asking for an arms race.
i see one comming as many large power in the region are after a flat top LHD the south koreans the Japanese the singaporeins are romered to be thinking of some thing like a LHD the thai have there carrier.

also do you think that the singaporians buying LEO2 will force other contreys to buy new tanks.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
I don;t think so.

And China is not a fool to compete Amercian forces, esp when there is no need to. First of all, nowadays political situation is very not similar to the Cold War, where each country keep guessing each other's intention, and fear the other to start a war first. Just like the movie of "The Sum of All Fear".
The Sum of All Fears was about terrorists blowing up the Super Bowl... how is that like the Cold War? :confused:

Nowadays, everythings are all very obvious. Each nation is not in hostile position towards each other, but in uncertain strategic and limited adversary relationship. China want to be Asian power to control Asian affairs, in copoeration with Russia of course. And with diplomatic power on affairs in Africa, Europe and S.America. The competition rising with US is not military, but diplomacy.
Things are not so obvious. The PROC isn't transperant in military spending. If they want to calm our fears about military buildup they would do best to show where it goes. The addition of a Blue Water navy will put Chinese ambitions from a regional hegemon to a global one.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
They key point is China not like US, they don't need Super Power Projection Globally, just locally is very enough, and at the same time, she can let US continue to be world super power, with 2nd in position, archieving her diplomatic goal: "Peaceful & Harmonic World" Diplomacy.
I disagree with your key point. China doesn't need it now, but they aren't stupid, the last thing China will do is place its future economic security on the back of the USN, and if they don't start building a blue water Navy soon, that is exactly what China would be doing.

The only major economic powers in the world that don't deploy blue water Navies today are Japan and South Korea, the 2 neighbors of China that are also economic competitors.

I disagree that China wouldn't engage in an arms race, although I agree they actively look for ways to avoid it in teh near term. It took a few underground tests and a dozen rocket launches in North Korea and China got an arms race to its North this summer whether they wanted it or not. Would they like to avoid it? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it won't happen anyway.

I also disagree with this "Peaceful & Harmonic World" stuff. I'm not saying China is a warmonger, not at all, but I would point out China is a closed society. Nobody trusts secret societies, of any type, much less closed societies the size of a potential global economic superpower. Trust but verify. Ever heard that phrase? China doesn't promote trust because they only tell half truths, then to compound the issue they don't allow for verification.

Here is an example. There are probably fewer than 20 people on this forum who could put together a PLAN OOB that includes PLAN ship and homeport and have a 95% accuracy. There are probably fewer than 20 people on this forum who couldn't put together a US Navy OOB, and as soon as someone passed the link to the Naval register all 20 would be able to do it.

The lack of trust, the absence of verification, and the half truths of the Chinese government almost certainly insure an arms race when China goes blue water. Those aren't military issues, rather political issues, also what I would call a big problem with the whole "Peaceful & Harmonic World" diplomacy theory your saying exists.
 

kams

New Member
I can see the String of Pearls ploy; but it is my guess (and it is a guess) is that it will backfire. It just might give Australia, Japan, Singapore and India something to talk about.
Already happening. Abe is attaching very high importance to Japans Relationship with India and Australia. He has articulated his views on this very clearly in his book, Towards a Beautiful Nation. PM M.M Singh is visiting Japan right now and is scheduled to address Diet, which is a rare honor accorded to a foreign dignitary.
 

lastsalvo

New Member
In my opinion, although China is intent on building a blue water navy, it would definitely look at American reaction wen it comes to developin an aircraft carrier. Sure, it wants secure energy supply, that is one of the reasons behind China's attempt to establish friendly relationship with countries like Myanmar, Iran and African nations, to have a series of ports to base their growing fleet of blue water naval vessels that will operate in foreign waters in 3 or 4 decades time. But as of now, there is no need to encourage futher fears and unease amongst American congressmen and China's neighbours (much of which is intensely brewing already, due to China's current progress). China knos it needs power projection, but what they want rite now is the ability to gradually ]come up with something on par with the Americans that it will not disturb the balance (or imbalance, dependin on your perspective) of military power in the Asia-Pacific region.

That is the reason y China is not constructin 5 or 6 hulls of every new ship they've constructed in the past 5 years (and they've constructed quite a few new ones, the Song class subs, Type 052B Luyang Class Destroyers, Type 052C LuyangII destroyer, Type 051C destroyer, Type 054 Jiangkai FFG, all of which r relatively modern, c www.sinodefence.com for technical details justifyin my analogy). They kno that its not good for the economy, or China's national interest.

Besides, China doesn't have a large amount of crews or leaders experienced in dealing with such high-tech equipment anyway. China wants more R&D, traing and logistics building, until one day, wen the time is rite (eg: China's economy is firmly in front of US, with its economy less dependent on exports and foreign imports of high-tech gears, which may take quite a while), it could realise its dream of power projection by buildin ships that will not become obsolete in 2-3 years time, without riskin some catastrophic backlash from the US.

And yes, like i've said before, assymettric warfare through political pressure is China's best strategy yet, a strategy that no doubt creates fear and tension. The telling-half-truths-and-no-verification is part of that political intimidation strategy. The sense of dealing with the unknown would put China's potential rivals on edge, and Beijing sees very clearly where this mite b heading if they decide to pop the bubble by constructin aircraft carriers like there's no tomoro.

The Chinese leadership already sees very clearly that its neighbours r now attemptin to form some sort of safety net to protect themselves by formin closer relationships (ie: Singh's visit to Japan), but the Chinese leadership is also aware that its neighbours kno that China in the near future will not attempt the kind of Cold War situation between the US and the USSR. There is just too much to lose and too little to gain for China to do such a thing (considerin the link between the welfare of the Chinese economy and the US economy, both will suffer if anyone puts a toe out of line). The kind of economic shape i've hypothesised earlier is the one in which China can finally achieve a reasonable power projection, and even though current predictions r that China will become a premium economic power if current trends continue in 2 decades times, it'd b too optimistic to say that China will, in that same time frame, b able to achieve the kinda power projection the CCP want.

And for those of u who would point out that the majority of the stuff i've said did not contain much on the aircraft carrier plan itself, its my belief that the general economic and political circumstances surrounding the plan r important in influencin its development, which is y i believe China will not attempt any massive Aircraft carrier power projection in the next few years to come.
 
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Mick73

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If China goes blue water your just asking for an arms race.
Well, one would say that would serve the US well. Giving that the US hasn't had a external threat like the Soviets for sometime now. The US public aren't buying the terriorist threat as they should. So maybe having China would increase Naval and Airforce spending. Lots of profit to be made in those areas. More F-22's and more C-17A's for one and maybe getting some of those only on paper projects for the Navy up and running. Having an arms race with someone is good for the share holders.
Even if they did get a CVBG, what the US do? Get extra ones themselves. Deploy them to the western pacific and have a stand off with China.
-I think not!
Every country has the right to project it power in international waters, to be there protecting it interests, having the ability to provided support to it's nationals where ever they are and to keep the balance of power.
If the US, UK and France etc. can roam the seas with CV's then so can the rest of the world.
Most main player in our reigion are getting CV's or LPH's of some sort of the other. We are already in a an arms race... a regional one!
What would you say if Australia decided to go with a light CV equiped with F-35's and NFH-90's... this would make Indoneasia nervous and the US would say nothing...in fact they would be throwing designs at Australia to get the contract!
Mick out...!
 

Manfred

New Member
I would say that the next two or three years will tell the tale. If China wants a powerful, usefull fleet capable of progecting force into the Middle East in the 20s or 30s, they have to start soon. Navies must be DEVELOPED, they cannot be stamped from the ground the way infantry divisions can.

Unless China has deployed at least one Carrier group by 2010, then look for them working on another way to influence the region. Alliances, commercial dominion, or railroads and highways to Pakistan and Myanmar.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I would say that the next two or three years will tell the tale. If China wants a powerful, usefull fleet capable of progecting force into the Middle East in the 20s or 30s, they have to start soon. Navies must be DEVELOPED, they cannot be stamped from the ground the way infantry divisions can.

Unless China has deployed at least one Carrier group by 2010, then look for them working on another way to influence the region. Alliances, commercial dominion, or railroads and highways to Pakistan and Myanmar.
1) China is developing its navy.
2) China is building ports, roads, you name it - in & to Pakistan & Myanmar, & cosying up to them.

Has been doing both for years.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

In the days of satellite tech and unless China never wants to sail a CV even if they build one, I think it would be pretty difficult to hide a chinese CV.
We can always wait for confirmation that one is being constructed or deployed.

Its an interesting topic to speculate on. I think speculating based on "western" analysis to understand Chinese thinking is often unreliable. Many times, chinese actions/motivations are often misread by western observers eg TianAnMen.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
That is the reason y China is not constructin 5 or 6 hulls of every new ship they've constructed in the past 5 years (and they've constructed quite a few new ones, the Song class subs, Type 052B Luyang Class Destroyers, Type 052C LuyangII destroyer, Type 051C destroyer, Type 054 Jiangkai FFG, all of which r relatively modern, c www.sinodefence.com for technical details justifyin my analogy). They kno that its not good for the economy, or China's national interest.
The reasons for the construction strategy of China aren't external, rather internal to good business practices. Anytime a corporation, or nation for that matter, is playing catch up to a competitor in technology there are established models to follow. We have seen it outside the military as well, AMD vs Intel or Linux vs Windows are both actually good examples.

The strategy is to design a capable technology and field it in limited numbers to develop a rapid production model for the purposes of 1) establishing a design to production capability for the new technology and 2) duplicating the design to production capability. In the case of the 2 class warship model, China builds the first ship to establish capability in producing a new technology, and then duplicates the ability by building a second ship of the class. In the case of AMD, they did this for quite a while when playing catch-up to Intel, and Linux did it for years releasing a new slight upgrade to its kernel every few months for the last several years. The rapid development cycle allowed both products to narrow the gap quickly over a superior competitor, while working out design and production issues throughout the process.

When AMD finally caught up, which took nearly a decade btw, they had established themselves as one of the largest manufacturers of microchips in the world, with a much more robust production system than Intel. Linux hasn't quite caught up, but there is no doubt they have established themselves as a near term contender, and through quick, minor upgrades has developed a working base of technical professionals that contributes to the better product.

Apply both scenarios to the PLAN. The PLAN, through a multiple 2 ship class build strategy for large ships and multiple short production runs for smaller ships has contributed substantially not only to the internal design base that gets to continually improve their designs on an annual basis with a new design that utilizes new technology, but the production base of China is allowed to upgrade its facilities while maintaining a constant development of new skills and technologies required to produce what amounts to gradual improvements in their Naval equipment. They use the smaller yards to work out production run issues, in areas that include both upgrading older equipment for new purpose, and additionally new, short production run to work out production processes, and example of that would be the Type 022 of which appears about a dozen have been build.

It is just good business practice for a trailing competitor of technology to do short runs and quickly move to the next upgrade, and these methods are done all the time in businesses that find them in the same position the PLAN is relative to where the US Navy is. It is inaccurate to say the PLAN doesn't measure themselves to the US Navy, because they do. They may approach with different strategies, but I think they see their direct competition the US Navy, not someone like the JMSDF.

I also don't agree the PLAN must start producing CVs by a specific year. While it is true the need for a PLAN CV is approaching in the near to mid term, the Chinese are very patient and won't start building a platform as complicated as a CV until their design base is ready, their industrial base is ready, and their political class is ready. I don't see how any of the three could have an established, set in stone type timetable, rather they are all working for that point in time which is surely somewhere on the near horizon.
 

zoolander

New Member
When the Euro weapon ban if lifted, china will finally be able to get its hands on the radar, sonar and ew tech it needs to modernize its navy. Right now it is trying to catch up to russian standards right now. considering a little more than 10 years ago, china was producing Ludas it has made huge strides in naval tech.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
When the Euro weapon ban if lifted, china will finally be able to get its hands on the radar, sonar and ew tech it needs to modernize its navy. Right now it is trying to catch up to russian standards right now. considering a little more than 10 years ago, china was producing Ludas it has made huge strides in naval tech.
Is there a time limit on that ban? Has the EU begun talks on lifting it?
 
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