Indonesia's acquisition of Russian submarines

[falcon_snack]

Russia has offered their type 20380 Steregushchiy and seemed like the chief of navy also interested coz this was a better and complete ship then sigma. According to local news, it's been proposed to the government to cancelled the additional 2 sigmas and changed it to russia's design. But in the name of 'respect-to-the-contract' to build sigma this offer has no future for now.

The reason why type 20380 was a favorable ship coz it has bigger gun (which royal schelde has turn down navy's requirement for 100mm/127mm i/o 76mm gun), the price including weapons and ASW helo. While sigma is more expensive and without helo.

And for transport aircraft, the airforce still in love with Herky . Only Herky can replace Herky..IF the US give the same credit, i'm sure the Herky will be on the top of the list

 

[Cuddly]

I think some reasons why Indonesia doesn’t spend its money on more OPV or new transport aircraft to booster its airlift capability.

For navy, they can produce the cheaper PC-36, each only cost about 12 billions rupiah or abt USD. 1.3 billion. A brand new OPV with light weapons at least cost abt USD. 30-40 billions and need at least 2.5-3.5 years to build one vessel. From 2003-2006, the local shipyards have delivered at least more than dozen of PC-36. It costs effective - cheaper and can build in mass amount in shortly, fast and able to operate in shallow water.

During the tsunami, only 6 Herky have airworthiness condition, but recently 10s Herky of them can fly. Not to mention currently the air force still has abt 20s C-130, one of the biggest operator in this region and they have a plan to upgrade them all. Indonesia also has made light transport aircraft such as C-212 and CN-235. Last week, PT. DI delivered 1 CN-235 and 1 C-212 maritime patrol version.. From Russia, 10s MI-17 V5 helo. These craft can be very useful to deploy fast aid during natural disaster.

The local industry also can design and produce hovercraft, some have already been operated by Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL). PT. PAL also has been building a LPD with helo deck that can accommodate 3 medium size helo. All of these vessel very suitable in operation natural disaster relief as well as will booster their amphibious strike capability.

It’s good idea to buy more new FFG to replace the obsolete Van Speijk Class as has been pointed out by Conte.
The 4 new Sigma corvettes have near the capability of light frigate and PT. PAL has developed new design so-called National Corvette, which is assisted by Italy. In near future, high likely will add with some FFG. The budget allocation from 2006-2010, for new weapons procurement is USD. 3.7 millions which USD. 1 million has been used to buy Russian weapons. As reported, the navy also have been looking on Sovremenny and Stereguschy. Cost abt USD.350 billions/ each of Stereguschy as has been offered by Russian.

Agree with Aussie Digger. Buy is easy but to keep it operate and synergy with what they have had or even being mastery on the capability is another major issue. But to said the purchases is outrageous, IMO it’s incorrect. The navy has learned from Ambalat dispute, that almost lead Indonesia and Malaysia into war. It’s urgent for Indonesia to have at least a “limited strike capability” to response such dispute in future. It’s ridiculous to defend the country which is approximately as wide as Europe with the weapons as currently on their inventory now. For the navy, with 2 Improved Kilo SSK still in the line of group green water navy, even if they add some more subs.

I dunno are they has consultate with RAN abt Kilo, but IMHO TNI-AL has made a good decision to ask the RAN, the best navy in this region to assist them to build a green water navy. Hope all will keep on the track.

 

[qwerty223]

I still don't get why they need subs. If you say PCs replace PVs for cost efficient. Why not to get ASW assets to counter subs instead? Further, you mentioned about subs for strengthen counterstrike, it's also not logic. The area which there is need of or allowed to deploy subs are limited and obviously under surveillance. They still need strong surface to handle such "Standoff" situations right? A solo subs will not get any better when facing a fleet of ASW surface ships.

 

[contedicavour]

PAL has developed new design so-called National Corvette, which is assisted by Italy. In near future, high likely will add with some FFG. The budget allocation from 2006-2010, for new weapons procurement is USD. 3.7 millions which USD. 1 million has been used to buy Russian weapons. As reported, the navy also have been looking on Sovremenny and Stereguschy. Cost abt USD.350 billions/ each of Stereguschy as has been offered by Russian.

What do you know about the National Corvette programme ? What I've read is that it is a variant of the Comandanti class OPVH and that the 1st should have been completed... but that's it. Any more detailed information would be very good news

cheers

 

[Galrahn]

If Indonesia can produce OPVs themselves to address the piracy concerns, then not buying foreign OPVs makes sense. Given the geography of the region, particularly how shallow it can get in some places, a surface force of numerous small shallow water craft makes a ton of sense.

The number of submarines appears to be debatable, anywhere from 2 to 6 to 12 has been reported. I think there is justification for any of those numbers, but it would depend on the mix in other areas. For example, 6 submarines in each fleet make sense, if the 12 submarines are replacing the 2 current submarines and all the frigates. 6 submarines makes sense if they are replacing the 2 current submarines and some of the frigates, and 2 submarines makes sense if they are replacing both current submarines, and no frigates.

However, to replace 2 with 12, then say you are buying more frigates as well, doesn't give much credibility to wisdom. The most common roles for the Indonesian Navy is anti-piracy/anti-terrorism and illegal fishing, both of which are serious issues (the fishing issue requires a large force by itself, larger than what they have today). Both roles can be handled effectively with OPVs. The larger Navy, the strategic deterrent Navy per se, could be submarines, frigates, or some combination of both, but to claim Indonesia is to get 12 submarines, and oh btw several frigates too, seems like political grandstanding that ignores economic realities.

12 submarines could be a smart move, as it would definitely provide a major strategic deterrence to any regional aggressor by sea, but that is all they would provide given submarines would be the wrong platform in dealing with the 2 most common missions for the Indonesian Navy.

 

[contedicavour]

The 2 current Type 209 have just been modernized by South Korean shipyards, so I don't believe they are to be replaced by the new Kilo-636 or Amurs.
Other than that, agree with what has been written

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

I agree... it is true that the indon was too frighten yet one by one of their island been 'taken' by others... it is necesary to patroll .. yet incase patrolling activity turn to a war game... they might need a fleet that can be there at short time without being notified.. in time vs war.. usually time will determine it.. using submarine will surely an extra advantages.. of course air support will not be forgotten... and for sure the navy at the end

The indon need to forget the lesson they had to lose one of their island because of the urguement that 'they did not patrolling on that area' ..

It is indon goverment need to decide weather to buy or not... and acting toward making the decision a reality yet the people need also been taking care... just look at singapore.. their defence budget each year too high... (reasonable at their point as they dont have a 'defend free zone') yet the people never complain it ( not too serious)..

plz reply

i believe that indonesia should acquire a small number of highly capable conventional submarines,but that they must give an even greater emphasis on acquiring anti ship/anti submarine warfare aircrafts (maybe more cn235m persuaders)and helicopters,this would not only strengthen their navy but would also provide greater employment opportunities to their aviation industry.

 

[Cuddly]

According to TNI-AL’s (Indonesian navy) blue print, until 2024 (must wait 18s years) their striking force will consist of 10s submarines, 16s FFGs, 40s corvettes, 26s FAC, 12s fast torpedo boats and 6 MCM. Meanwhile the patrolling force will be built up to 66s PCs. Details can be found in this link, unfortunately it is only available on Bahasa Indonesia.

http://www.tnial.mil.id/renbang.htm

Personally I am also skeptical abt it. The numbers are still to be debatable. How can it be afforded by its economic but hopefully all will keep on the track. As aside, the airforce has not unveiled its blue print, and without the air supremacy all of these fancy ship will be a sitting duck. Again, honestly I am doubt if Indonesia can develop its air force in balance of the navy’s posture as projected in the navy’s blue print above. Another concerns that must be addressed are how to building a synergy of each others if all that weapons available, keep them all serviceable and mastering in the capabilities.

Abt FFGs, if I am not mistaken, the fleet currently only remain 1 obsolete Van Speijk operable with her Harpoon has expired and 1 Ki Hajar Dewantara Class which is also serves as training ship. 3s Tribal class & 4s Cloud Jones was long time ago decommissioned. So it makes in sense if they want to add some more FFGs if not brand new, the second hand also will helpfull. Even if someday Indonesian navy has a power as projected in its blue print, still that is make sense to mention the huge area of this country that must be defended.

As reported Indonesian navy will booster its capability to green water navy posture. A green water navy as designed is not only to deal such as illegal fishing, smuggling, illicit drug/ trafficking or combating terrorism role as all can be deal enough by brown water navies sizes. Commonly, inheren with the growth of economic, almost nations likely will spend more money on their defence forces, so the same thing with Indonesia.

Conte, I don’t have any information abt so-called National Corvette. As I have read is, they haven’t even complete the 1st hull. Maybe Falcon_snack can help.
Sad, some dumb politician and generals prefer to buy the toys from overseas i/o fr local industry. Recently PT. PAL has released new pic of this corvette. Very different with the previous one. From the artist impression’s pic, she has RCS shapes, arming with Oto 76/62 SR and Albatross SAM, also looks like have possible another option, can be installed with VLS SAM.Yeah…, the corvette still looks like Commandati. I dunno how to post pics into this forum, but may you can find it in this link. (hope the pic has not been removed by Indonesian navy admin forum )

http://www.tnial.mil.id/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=992&forum=2&9
or simply you can check it out in PT. PAL website
http://www.pal.co.id/v4/product.asp?id=1&type=1

 

[Todjaeger]

As it relates to the Indonesian SSK purchase, I'm seeking clarification on submarine navigation. My impression is that while submerged, a sub isn't able to receive/make use of GPS signals unless close to the surface. Therefore, during dives a sub instead must use charts and keep accurate track of movements to know it's position, otherwise it can collide with an underwater feature. Like the pic of the Los Angeles-class SSN that hit an undersea mount. Also, my impression is that the waters around Indonesia/New Guinea/Malaysia & Australia are both fairly shallow, and outside of the major shipping channels not very well charted. This assumption on by me is part of the reason I've thought the SSK purchase doesn't make much sense. Is this correct?

As Cuddly indicated, the Indonesian Navy has released their proposed modernization/expansion, but the Air Force has not. That's one of the other major reasons I don't understand the motivation behind a sub purchase. It's all well and good to have a regionally powerful navy, but if the air force is unable to support or protect the navy from the air forces of hostile nations, then the powerful navy will soon not be so powerful. Or large.

-Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

i believe that indonesia should acquire a small number of highly capable conventional submarines,but that they must give an even greater emphasis on acquiring anti ship/anti submarine warfare aircrafts (maybe more cn235m persuaders)and helicopters,this would not only strengthen their navy but would also provide greater employment opportunities to their aviation industry.

disagree completely. all the work done with the Indons to date (and very very recently) shows clear and present flaws in green water management.

their primary problems are brown and green water management. subs are almost completely irrelevant for their kind of ISR requirements.

IMO there are better and more efficient ways they could have spent the money.

 

[Cuddly]

disagree completely. all the work done with the Indons to date (and very very recently) shows clear and present flaws in green water management.

their primary problems are brown and green water management. subs are almost completely irrelevant for their kind of ISR requirements.

IMO there are better and more efficient ways they could have spent the money.

GF, would you like to elaborate what the green water navy management is. I have searched in internet but still get cul de sac.
Thanks in advance for any information abt it.

Rgds

 

[qwerty223]

disagree completely. all the work done with the Indons to date (and very very recently) shows clear and present flaws in green water management.

their primary problems are brown and green water management. subs are almost completely irrelevant for their kind of ISR requirements.

IMO there are better and more efficient ways they could have spent the money.

Yes. This is exactly what mean. They need more PCs or PVs to do those "secure" work. While "defending" work, they should go for missile boats（Tarantul-III???） as they have islands to play "hide and seek". Wings for navy are useful if want to boost up fast. Planes and Heli are respectively lower cost and highly mobility for a solution in secure such a wide area like Indo. As to counter subs, I stick to my idea: to get surface/airbone ASW assets to do the jobs. Subs are too burden for Indo.

 

[gf0012-aust]

GF, would you like to elaborate what the green water navy management is. I have searched in internet but still get cul de sac.
Thanks in advance for any information abt it.

Rgds

well, the definition of blue water has changed *(and been blurred) over the last few years - but I'll try and give a timeline example.

initially it referred to any major power that was able to persistently and concurrently field full battle fleets in all the major oceans and seas. that basically restricted it to the big 4 of USA, USSR, UK and France.

it then went to an ability to concurrently deploy full battle fleets to major oceans (slight change in definition)

now it tends to refer to any nation that can deploy a competent force outside of their territorial waters into major oceans etc.. eg outside of their nominal EEZ.

greenwater refers to EEZ and the littorals

brownwater refers to riverines, estuaries, rivers and large lakes.

 

[caksz]

By Getting the new subs , they will level up the capability of TNI AL , they lagging behind their negihbours and yet lot of dispute islands with them. Ligitan and Sipadan island is lost by the decision of ICJ, hurt the pride of the country they probably won't take next dispute probs to them , so they need credible force for it.If another dispute were taken to ICJ they probably lose some island too buying a new subs is good but they still need huge numbers of Patrol boat for sea inforcement , indo islands and seas is to vast for current forces of TNI AL to cover

 

[qwerty223]

By Getting the new subs , they will level up the capability of TNI AL , they lagging behind their negihbours and yet lot of dispute islands with them. Ligitan and Sipadan island is lost by the decision of ICJ, hurt the pride of the country they probably won't take next dispute probs to them , so they need credible force for it.If another dispute were taken to ICJ they probably lose some island too buying a new subs is good but they still need huge numbers of Patrol boat for sea inforcement , indo islands and seas is to vast for current forces of TNI AL to cover

Yes. Those whom are disagree are holding their point on "hey still need huge numbers of Patrol boat for sea enforcement". Practically, sad but have to say, they don't have that money to do so in near future. So getting new subs in a rush is not a good choice for them currently.

 

[rizallyn0301]

Abt FFGs, if I am not mistaken, the fleet currently only remain 1 obsolete Van Speijk operable with her Harpoon has expired and 1 Ki Hajar Dewantara Class which is also serves as training ship. 3s Tribal class & 4s Cloud Jones was long time ago decommissioned. So it makes in sense if they want to add some more FFGs if not brand new, the second hand also will helpfull. Even if someday Indonesian navy has a power as projected in its blue print, still that is make sense to mention the huge area of this country that must be defended.

you forgot netherland-built Fatahillah class..... i took the pictures some days ago...
click here

 

[Cuddly]

you forgot netherland-built Fatahillah class..... i took the pictures some days ago...
click here

Fatahillah class is a corvette, not classified as FFG, albeit in some sources (usually NGOs) they are considered as a light frigate, but it’s not FFG. Its too high regarded for the Fatahillah class. With approximately full load 1450 tons , 83.85M X 11.1M X 3.3M Fatahillah is more appropriate to be grouped into (large) corvettes category.

Frigates these days have weigh varies from 2000 - 5000 tons. Weight from 5000 tons to 8000 tons are category for Destroyers. Corvettes usually range from above 600 tons to < 2000 tons. So despite the new corvette, Sigma Class is bigger than Fatahillah they are still considered as a corvettes. Capabilities such as fire power (kinds weapons carried), sensors/ EW suites, range and endurance also be used to determine warships category. Corvettes capabilities are below Frigates. Frigates himself have lesser capabilities than Destroyers.

rgds,

 

[SATAN]

Yes. Those whom are disagree are holding their point on "hey still need huge numbers of Patrol boat for sea enforcement". Practically, sad but have to say, they don't have that money to do so in near future. So getting new subs in a rush is not a good choice for them currently.

I wonder what happened to the 70 or so former East German Frigates,Corvettes that indonesia purchased a decade ago? That was a huge purchase.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I wonder what happened to the 70 or so former East German Frigates,Corvettes that indonesia purchased a decade ago? That was a huge purchase.

basically inop. poor maint, poor support and no committment to implement basic repair etc...

the bulk of them are virtually HULKEX material.

 

[rizallyn0301]

I wonder what happened to the 70 or so former East German Frigates,Corvettes that indonesia purchased a decade ago? That was a huge purchase.

most of indonesian parchim class are now in operation... except some which is still in storage or re-engined.