Nato in Afghanistan -'European nations must not turn 'coward.'

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The result of this war on terror is that there are for sure less organised structures of Al-Quaeda and other terror networks. But at the same time more and more individual terror cells begin to spread all over the western world. Most of the done and planned terror attacks here in europe were not done by international networks but by cells which are just lead by the idea of Al-Quaeda and not part of a terror organisation.
The train bombs in spain, the bus bombs in England, the failed train bombs here in Germany (It is a little horrible that I was in a room right above the one were they were build :shudder ),...
 

USNavySEAL3310

New Member
Whoever said that a conventional military force has not beat back a guerilla force is right. The American Revolution is an exmple of guerillas winning, Vietnam, and, of course the prime example, the Soviet-Afghan war. Especially with a cause so great as religion, it will take a very long time, if ever, for them to back down.

However, I can't say that this war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq is not completing the objective of reducing terror power and planning. Coalition forces have captured or killed thousands of insurgents and terror-related people over the past few years.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There are examples of a military force winning against guerillas and rebells.
But as the Germans in WWII, Romans in spane, Huns in Asia, Japanese etc. showed this went hand in hand with genozide and this is something I hope is gone in our western society.

However, I can't say that this war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq is not completing the objective of reducing terror power and planning. Coalition forces have captured or killed thousands of insurgents and terror-related people over the past few years.
It would be interesting to know how many of them just raised or radicalised because of the actions in A-stan and Iraq.
 

USNavySEAL3310

New Member
That's where it comes to political decision making. Either don't fight a war on their front, away from home, and leave yourself open to terror attacks 365 or be willing to risk the chance, however seemingly unlikely it may be, that you will get rid of or at least hurt a large portion of the terrorists in the Mid-East, those responsible for attacking the U.S. and who planned the Madrid and London bombings. Doing so, however, may, as you said, radicalize them.

That's a political question that is for those who sit in Congress/Parliament, etc.

P.S. What wars/conflicts are there where the guerrillas lost against a regular military? I couldn't think of one and am interested to know.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Another company-sized firefight by a certain army. The Taliban is being actively ferreted out during the winter, as they are bogged down.

'Dozens of Taleban' die in battle

Nato forces in southern Afghanistan say they have killed about 70 Taleban fighters following an ambush.

Troops fought a four-hour battle after a large-scale insurgent attack near the town of Musa Qala in Helmand Province, the alliance says.

British troops recently brokered a truce with rebels to allow local forces in Musa Qala to police the area.

The attack may fuel suspicions the Taleban use Musa Qala as a safe haven, a BBC correspondent in Kabul says.

A Danish patrol serving alongside British troops came under fire outside Musa Qala and called in air support, a Nato spokesman said.

Between 70 and 80 suspected Taleban died in the battle and no Nato troops were killed, he added.

There was no independent confirmation of the death toll.

The attack happened outside the area of Musa Qala covered by the deal struck in October between British forces, Taleban fighters and local elders.

Ongoing conflict

The Musa Qala attack was just one incident in a violent weekend in southern Afghanistan.

Afghan policemen stand near the damaged Nato vehicle

In the city of Kandahar, a suicide car bomb exploded near a British convoy.

Three Afghans were killed and three British soldiers injured.

There were reports of further civilian injuries in clashes following the bombing.

Alliance officials also confirmed that a Nato-chartered transport helicopter carrying eight crew crashed in the north of Kandahar province on Saturday.

There was no sign that anyone had survived.

The Taleban said they shot down the helicopter, but this could not be confirmed.

Nato-led forces fighting in southern Afghanistan are facing the fiercest resistance from militants since the toppling of the Taleban regime five years ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6204866.stm
 

USNavySEAL3310

New Member
Whoever said earlier that there isn't anything being done about warlords and Taliban that roam outside of Kabul, especially the south, here is a report that they are.

Who did the ambushing? If it was the insurgents, poorly planned attack. If it was NATO, good for them.

I'm sorry to hear about the car bomb. Unfortunately there's very little that can be done to prevent homicide attacks.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Who did the ambushing? If it was the insurgents, poorly planned attack. If it was NATO, good for them.
As I read the media, the Taliban were expected to be in the general area. The Taliban was apparently already monitored by the Danish unit when the Taliban unit decided to initiate the fight with mortars, RPG and MG's, revealing their colours. The Danish unit commander decided to fight it to conclusion instead of disengaging. Their orders where along the lines of mapping out minefields and Taliban groups, however, the situation developed.

So I guess it qualifies as an semi-ambush.


Anyhow, better source in English.

Up to 80 Taliban fighters have been killed by Nato forces in a four-hour firefight in southern Afghanistan.

A tip-off from local police allowed up to 150 Danish troops to join Afghan forces in an ambush on the militants in Helmand province early yesterday morning.

There were no casualties among the Nato soldiers, who were backed by helicopter gunships and fighter jets, a spokesman said. The fighting took place in a remote district outside the town of Musa Qala, said Major Luke Knittig, the spokesman for Nato's international security assistance force.

He said Afghan security forces had told Nato commanders that insurgents had increased their activity in recent weeks in the area between the Musa Qala and Nawzad districts. Musa Qala is a stronghold of Islamic militias and a centre for opium production.

[...]

Maj Knittig said there had been an average of 9.4 attacks a day in recent weeks but the number of coordinated, complex attacks had dropped dramatically. He said Nato forces were actively going out and attacking Taliban positions. "What you're seeing is us doing what we said we would do through the winter months, seek out insurgents where they might otherwise seek safe haven," he said. "Danish reconnaissance patrols aren't hanging out in the barracks waiting for springtime."

The fighting yesterday took place where, in October, British troops had pulled out of a deal with tribal elders that would have seen Taliban forces banished from the town.

"The elders, as I understand it, have extraordinary influence, but that influence doesn't spread across the whole district, just mostly in the town," Maj Knittig said.

[...]

http://www.modoracle.com/?page=http://www.modoracle.com/news/detail.h2f?id=12154
 

Ths

Banned Member
Grand Danois:

What I see is a phase 2. Phase one was light infantry in the defence - very well executed. Phase 2 is light infantry in the offence:

Patrolling feeling out the enemy - and when sought out: Hit them with all resources. Fine work form light infantry.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Grand Danois:

What I see is a phase 2. Phase one was light infantry in the defence - very well executed. Phase 2 is light infantry in the offence:

Patrolling feeling out the enemy - and when sought out: Hit them with all resources. Fine work form light infantry.
I see what you mean. However, if this was the case the recce sqn would operate out of Musa Qala and not Camp Bastion.

Sidenote: NATO aligned their reports with the Defence Command Denmark/Army Op Command today - ie toning it down. :D


The Royal Marines were still patrlling when they were repulsed despite considerable air supprt.
Huh?
 
Last edited:

FutureTank

Banned Member
Taliban repel British assault in south Afghanistan
By Peter Graff
Reuters
Tuesday, December 5, 2006; 1:33 PM
GARMSER, Afghanistan (Reuters) - British Marines attacked a Taliban-held valley in southern Afghanistan on Tuesday but withdrew after a ferocious counterattack that withstood air strikes and artillery fire, witnesses said.
One Royal Marine was killed and a second wounded during the battle, the UK Helmand Task Force (UKTF) said.
Scores of soldiers ran across a bridge over the Helmand River under a full moon shortly before daybreak and began sweeping south through wheatfields in the south of the province, the opium center of the world's major producer.
A Reuters cameraman said the Marines initially faced only sporadic resistance but when they advanced, Taliban fighters launched a ferocious, organized riposte with heavy weapons and tried to outflank the British troops.
The fierce resistance illustrated the challenges facing the NATO troops in Afghanistan where they are trying to subdue well-armed Taliban and other militants bolstered by profits from a record opium crop, according to Afghan and foreign officials.
Major Andy Plewes, who led the Royal Marines of Zulu Company 45 Commando, on the assault, said the soldiers had expected resistance: "What we didn't know was how strong it was."
"We don't currently have enough forces in the area to hold ground completely and that has to be done by Afghan security forces," he told a Reuters reporter with the Marines.
The 32,000-strong force NATO-led International Security Assistance Force took over command of the war against the Taliban from U.S.-led forces in October and has launched a string of offensives.
British casualties have been mounting since ISAF took over command of operations in southern Afghanistan at the end of July. Britain has lost 41 soldiers since the Taliban government was toppled in 2001, the bulk of them this year.
The British forces, who make up the bulk of NATO forces in Helmand, opened fire from light armored vehicles and engaged small groups of guerrillas with mortars and machine guns.
Afghan police and soldiers have so far held just the bridgehead and the short road at the north end of the valley, criss-crossed by networks of ancient canals that make Helmand fertile enough to produce a third of the world's opium crop.
BARRAGES OF AIR STRIKES
The Taliban withstood barrages of air strikes from Apache helicopters, 500 pound bombs dropped by B1 bombers and withering cannon fire from A-10 attack jets before the British finally withdrew after a 10-hour battle.
The Taliban fighters, who say they have the expertise to defeat the strongest army, had dug sophisticated networks of trenches often leading from compound to compound.
This year has seen the worst fighting since U.S.-led forces ousted the Taliban's strict Islamist government in 2001. About 4,000 people have died, a quarter of them civilians.
The alliance troops were deployed to aid reconstruction and to help Afghanistan's government by build stability. But they have been increasingly drawn into battles with the Taliban and other militants in the opium poppy-growing south.
Tuesday's assault was the latest in a series of battles by British forces around the bridgehead.
Major Plewes said he considered the assault a success as they had cleared out areas near the "D.C.," a tiny strip of road and ruined buildings on the eastern side of the Helmand River.
But without more Afghan troops to hold the ground there was little hope of doing much more.
"In the mean time we have to try to provide as much as security to the D.C. as possible," said Plewes.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Where they 'repelled'?

Withdrawing from a contact after hitting it hard is not an unusual tactic. No reason to risk further casualties establishing control over a battlefield of no relevance. To pursue can easily be the road to diminishing returns.


Btw, re air power/air support in Afghanistan.

Target Taliban: Afghan air power
By Tim Ripley

Renewed conflict in Afghanistan has seen NATO launch its largest air offensive since Kosovo, but with a focus on providing close air support to troops

From the middle of this year, troops of NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) found themselves locked in heavy fighting across southern Afghanistan against several thousand Taliban insurgents and their militia allies. As the fighting escalated, small groups of isolated and outnumbered NATO troops began calling on increasing amounts of air support to keep the enemy at bay.


ISAF troops have relied heavily on precision air strikes

Fixed-wing strike aircraft operated by the Dutch, French, UK and US armed forces participated in these operations, making the Afghan mission the alliance's biggest air campaign since the 1999 Kosovo conflict. The Afghan fighting reached a climax in September, when more than 1,000 close air support sorties were flown by NATO fixed-wing combat aircraft, as alliance troops launched Operation Medusa to destroy a concentration of 1,000 Taliban fighters massing to attack Kandahar city. In the course of four months of fighting, its aircraft dropped and fired more than 1,200 bombs and rockets across southern Afghanistan. Dutch, UK and US attack helicopters used even more missiles, rockets and cannon fire.

Fighting was equally intense in neighbouring Helmand, where 160 air strikes were employed in August. One hundred of these were used to keep Taliban fighters from overrunning Danish, UK and US troops besieged in Musa Qalah.

UK Royal Air Force officers based at Kandahar airfield describe the recent operations as a "classic close air support" battle, and say the British armed forces have not experienced anything quite like it since the Normandy campaign in the Second World War.

More on Flightglobal.com (Very good stuff)
 
Last edited:

Ths

Banned Member
Grand Danois: Precisely. Now they appear concentrated and dug in - hit them when they start to move - and cut supplies.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Grand Danois: Precisely. Now they appear concentrated and dug in - hit them when they start to move - and cut supplies.
The news storry I posted is a reportingof the engagement with other older material pasted in. The entrenchments do not refer to the engagement of the Royal Marines, but to a general tactic by Taliban elsewhere.

The Royal marines were following up on 'light' contact, and were surprised by the volume of fire that they suddenly came under.

They retired under fire and called in air support. However air support did not help to open the route of advance, and after 10 hours the mission was halted.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The news storry I posted is a reportingof the engagement with other older material pasted in. The entrenchments do not refer to the engagement of the Royal Marines, but to a general tactic by Taliban elsewhere.
Hard to see as it was unsorced. ;)

The Royal marines were following up on 'light' contact, and were surprised by the volume of fire that they suddenly came under.

They retired under fire and called in air support. However air support did not help to open the route of advance, and after 10 hours the mission was halted.
Yes. Recce, contact, bludgeon enemy/attrit, don't pursue as you don't have the assets right now. Seek different solution or try again with appropriate force.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Hard to see as it was unsorced.
Precisely :)
Its called 'padding'. The reported probably over heard something which was the first two paragraphs. However to make it a story, he needed say 6 paragraphs. So the editor gives it to a researcher, and the researcher adds stuff from other stories as general information to pad the column. The sub-editor then represents the story. :)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Precisely :)
Its called 'padding'. The reported probably over heard something which was the first two paragraphs. However to make it a story, he needed say 6 paragraphs. So the editor gives it to a researcher, and the researcher adds stuff from other stories as general information to pad the column. The sub-editor then represents the story. :)
I'll totally agree to that. But was actually thinking of missing link.
 
Top