Grand Danois
Entertainer
Bingo!
F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped
- Thread starter LancerMc
- Start date
That was the Seawolf, & with dummy warheads, IIRC, because they were trying to measure how close they could get. Unfortunately, the telemetry equipment didn't survive the direct hits of the missiles on the shells. But then it didn't really need to, since they knew how close they'd got.
Rjmaz - this was done over 20 years ago. The missiles are better now. And as I said, you don't even need an expensive missile. A CIWS will do it. The SDB is relatively slow, easy to spot, has no ECCM & flies a predictable trajectory. Easy target.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Ah well. Some British missile or the other. Luckily I qualified it with a "IIRC".That was the Seawolf, & with dummy warheads, IIRC, because they were trying to measure how close they could get. Unfortunately, the telemetry equipment didn't survive the direct hits of the missiles on the shells. But then it didn't really need to, since they knew how close they'd got.
Rjmaz - this was done over 20 years ago. The missiles are better now. And as I said, you don't even need an expensive missile. A CIWS will do it. The SDB is relatively slow, easy to spot, has no ECCM & flies a predictable trajectory. Easy target.
But this makes me think about the F-22/SDB scenarios going around where the F-22 is supposed to do SEAD/DEAD vs double-digit Russian SAM's. Keeping in mind that they will oft be protected by Tor M1 or similar, one could question if this is as optimal as presented...
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A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Getting off topic I know, but Raytheon has just added GPS/INS capability to the standard HARM missile, to engage these sorts of targets at extremely long range and with an ability to hit the target even if they switch their radars off (and don't start driving around...)Ah well. Some British missile or the other. Luckily I qualified it with a "IIRC".
But this makes me think about the F-22/SDB scenarios going around where the F-22 is supposed to do SEAD/DEAD vs double-digit Russian SAM's. Keeping in mind that they will oft be protected by Tor M1 or similar, one could question if this is as optimal as presented...
HDAM they are going to call it...
Another weapon for JSF to employ in years to come...
:Grand Danois
Entertainer
Yes, I saw that. I think it addresses some of the shortcomings found in the HARM during the 1999 Kosovo war, where ALARM was found to be more efficient due to its hanging around in the target area awaiting emissions from a radar.Getting off topic I know, but Raytheon has just added GPS/INS capability to the standard HARM missile, to engage these sorts of targets at extremely long range and with an ability to hit the target even if they switch their radars off (and don't start driving around...)
HDAM they are going to call it...
Another weapon for JSF to employ in years to come...
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...its_Target_Without_Radar_Guidance16009187.php
There will be so many ways for the JSF to skin the cat.
Is that the one the Italians are involved in? IIRC they're upgrading their current stock of HARMS jointly with the USAF, & talking about fitting the new HARM guidance system to the Meteor body eventually, as a HARM replacement. Longer-range & faster, I think.Getting off topic I know, but Raytheon has just added GPS/INS capability to the standard HARM missile, to engage these sorts of targets at extremely long range and with an ability to hit the target even if they switch their radars off (and don't start driving around...)
HDAM they are going to call it...
Another weapon for JSF to employ in years to come...
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
On the HDAM this was in defense-aeropace.com today:
Raytheon HARM Variant Successfully Hits Target without Requiring Radar Guidance
(Source: Raytheon Co.; issued Nov. 27, 2006)
TUCSON, Ariz. --- Raytheon Company again successfully demonstrated the enhanced navigation accuracy capability of a new variant of HARM (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile).
Called "HDAM" for HARM Destruction of enemy air defense Attack Module, the new variant adds INS/GPS (inertial navigation system/global positioning system) capability to the battle-proven HARM, greatly improving its effectiveness while significantly reducing collateral damage and the threat to friendly troops.
The test flight took place at the China Lake Test Range, Calif. The missile, launched from an F-16, was fired against a simulated surface-to-surface missile launcher.
The target was not emitting radar signals -- the normal target locater used by the current HARM system. In this case the missile was given the target's geographic location.
After launch the missile flew a range-enhancing profile and the fuze successfully activated over the target well within the required parameters. Pieces of the destroyed target were observed flying through the air, which was significant as the missile was not carrying a warhead.
The first test on June 20 saw HDAM, also launched from an F-16, successfully face two radar sources and select the correct one. The test demonstrated that the added INS/GPS capability ensures that the intended target is attacked instead of other radar sources.
"The combination of the excellent long range targeting provided by the F-16, and HDAM's supersonic precision attack, gives the warfighter a way to destroy critical targets at extended ranges," said Jeff Wadsworth, the HARM program director at Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, Ariz. "The target no longer needs to identify itself by radar emission to be neutralized."
"HDAM can quickly be adapted to a new role as a high-speed strike weapon with impressive range," Wadsworth said. "Raytheon is already researching new technology that gives the HDAM increased effectiveness over a wide range of target sets."
Raytheon Missile Systems has produced more than 22,800 HARMs since 1985. Customers include the U.S. Air Force, Navy, Marines and seven international allies.
Raytheon Company, with 2005 sales of $21.9 billion, is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, information technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people worldwide.
-ends-
Sounds like a pretty strong upgrade, interesting to see when in service.
Raytheon HARM Variant Successfully Hits Target without Requiring Radar Guidance
(Source: Raytheon Co.; issued Nov. 27, 2006)
TUCSON, Ariz. --- Raytheon Company again successfully demonstrated the enhanced navigation accuracy capability of a new variant of HARM (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile).
Called "HDAM" for HARM Destruction of enemy air defense Attack Module, the new variant adds INS/GPS (inertial navigation system/global positioning system) capability to the battle-proven HARM, greatly improving its effectiveness while significantly reducing collateral damage and the threat to friendly troops.
The test flight took place at the China Lake Test Range, Calif. The missile, launched from an F-16, was fired against a simulated surface-to-surface missile launcher.
The target was not emitting radar signals -- the normal target locater used by the current HARM system. In this case the missile was given the target's geographic location.
After launch the missile flew a range-enhancing profile and the fuze successfully activated over the target well within the required parameters. Pieces of the destroyed target were observed flying through the air, which was significant as the missile was not carrying a warhead.
The first test on June 20 saw HDAM, also launched from an F-16, successfully face two radar sources and select the correct one. The test demonstrated that the added INS/GPS capability ensures that the intended target is attacked instead of other radar sources.
"The combination of the excellent long range targeting provided by the F-16, and HDAM's supersonic precision attack, gives the warfighter a way to destroy critical targets at extended ranges," said Jeff Wadsworth, the HARM program director at Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, Ariz. "The target no longer needs to identify itself by radar emission to be neutralized."
"HDAM can quickly be adapted to a new role as a high-speed strike weapon with impressive range," Wadsworth said. "Raytheon is already researching new technology that gives the HDAM increased effectiveness over a wide range of target sets."
Raytheon Missile Systems has produced more than 22,800 HARMs since 1985. Customers include the U.S. Air Force, Navy, Marines and seven international allies.
Raytheon Company, with 2005 sales of $21.9 billion, is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, information technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people worldwide.
-ends-
Sounds like a pretty strong upgrade, interesting to see when in service.
lol seems that you are again going for your dream plane aka the JSF. So in an effort to make you more happy that you are currently I will offer you this nice pic for you to print on a T-shirt and show the whole worldnfloorl: how much you love this plane.:nutkick
seems that you are again going for your dream plane aka the JSF. So in an effort to make you more happy that you are currently I will offer you this nice pic for you to print on a T-shirt and show the whole worldnfloorl: how much you love this plane.:nutkick
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What they didn't say it's done is hit something which was emitting then stopped, without needing updates from the launch aircraft. Presumably that will be tested later.
A few thoughts on the possible development of an Anti-Radiation variant of the Meteor Missiles, its relevance to the JSF aircraft, SEAD operations; in particular against ship-borne radar during mixed package attacks on ships. Having significance to the deployment of the JSF for Australia, where defence against maritime targets is a major requirement.
Current Status of AA Meteor Missile Program
The initial firing of the Meteor Missile was on the Grippen, subsequently the missile has been successfully launched from a Typhoon. Development and integration of the seeker and the associated firings will take place during 2007 and may slip into 2008. It is anticipated that the Meteor Missile will be compatible with the Tranche 2 Typhoon when it is introduced into service in 2008. However, the program for the two-way data link has slipped due to funding issues. In particular the development of the interface SRI in the Captor radar Processor LRI 2, which only received interim funding and at one stage all development stopped. There is doubt that the this issue will be resolved in time to integrate the Meteor Missile into the Typhoon during Tranche 2, it could be delayed until Tranche 3 (2012). At best it appears that it will be introduced as a modification with ISD of 2010.
The Meteor Missile has been installed on all 6 AA stations (4 in the fuselage & 2 wing stations). I think it has been cleared for flight from all 6 stations. So far I think it has been fired from a wing station, I’m not sure if it has been fired from a fuselage station.
AA Meteor Integration with JSF
For the UK, when the JSF is delivered it will only be integrated with a limited range of weapons common to all users (essentially mainly US weapons, including AMRAAM). Latter customer weapons will be integrated, including Meteor. The Missile will be fired from the same stations as the AMRAAM (using the same launcher/ejectors).
AR Meteor Program Status & Comparisons with other missiles
There have been investigations into using the HARM seeker fitted to the body of the Meteor, but I have not seen any evidence that the development has been funded.
Such a combination would produce a very potent weapon.
AR Meteor (Based on AA version)
Mass: 185kg (AR version probably 200kg)
Length: 3.65m
Diameter: 0.178m
Warhead: ~30kg (AR version probably 50kg)
Speed: + M4
Range: + 100km
The key feature is that it could be installed on any aircraft capable of firing an AMRAAM. Including internal weapons bays on the F/A-22 and F-35 aircraft.
It could replace/complement ALARM and HARM missiles.
ALARM
Mass: 268kg
Length: 4.24m
Wing Span: 0.73m
Warhead: ~50kg
Speed: ~M2
Range: +45km
HARM
Mass: 360kg
Length: 4.14m
Wing Span: 1.02m
Warhead: 70/20kg
Speed: ~M2
Range: +50km
As can be seen the ALARM & HARM missiles cannot be installed in the semi-recessed fuselage stations used by the AMRAAM or Meteor missiles, nor in the internal bays of the F/A-22 or F-35 aircraft. With a modern warhead it could offer similar of better capabilities than the current missiles.
As can be seen below the AR missiles are much smaller that anti-ship missiles.
Harpoon (Air-Launched)
Mass: 516kg
Length: 4.49m (SLAM & ER)
Diameter: 0.34m
Wingspan: 0.92m
Warhead: 220kg
Speed: 855km/h (Sub-sonic)
Range: +240km
AR Meteor SEAD Operations With JSF
Apart from the obvious uses of carrying an anti-radiation missile in a LO aircraft for land based operations (SEAD), there could be tactical advantages to using such a missile when attacking a ship.
Consider a mixed package of F-35s, some equipped with long range stand-off weapons, such as the Harpoon missile installed on external pylons and others carrying only internal stores, including AR Meteor missiles. (Some or all could carry AA missiles internally).
The Harpoon could be fired at long range, while the AR Meteor equipped F-35s would be able to approach relatively close to the ship without being detected by the ships radar. Shortly before the low flying Harpoon missile came within range of the ship, the AR Meteor missiles could be fired taking out the ships radar. Further missiles may be able to engage radars controlling the close in defences.
It may be possible for a single F-35 to launch a standoff weapon, such as a Harpoon missile and then jettison the pylon and revert to LO mode of operations. The JSF could then chase the slow speed missile and launch AR Meteor Missiles to suppress ship radar during the final stages of attack.
AR Meteor on other platforms
The AR Meteor Missile would provide any other aircraft capably of firing AMRAAM missiles with a SEAD capability; however it the combination of this missile with LO that offers the most advantages. Such a missile could be fitted to the F/A-22 with good effect, but because of the limited size of the internal weapons bays this would reduce the number of other weapons carried.
Other fourth generation could employ this weapon without affecting the RCS of the aircraft.
In the future it is likely that weapons designed for internal storage in the F/A-22 & F-35 weapons bay will be used on UAV and UCAV aircraft to provide a SEAD capability.
Conclusion
If an AR version of the Meteor Missile were to be developed (possibly using the new HARM seeker), as has been suggested, by Italy and the US, it could provide the JSF with a significant SEAD capability.
When deployed in a mixed package AR Meteor Missiles could disable ship-borne radar and significantly increase the probability of standoff weapons successfully destroying the target.
As a force multiplier the AR Meteor Missile would increase the effectiveness of the proposed Australian force of F-35 aircraft when engaged with maritime targets, particularly when multiple targets are engaged and they rely on a few ships to provide early warning radar cover.
An AR Meteor Missile could provide SEAD for future UAV & UCAV aircraft.
Chris
p.s. All we need now is the funding to complete the integration of AA version, finish the two-way data-link and get a contract to develop the AR version.
Current Status of AA Meteor Missile Program
The initial firing of the Meteor Missile was on the Grippen, subsequently the missile has been successfully launched from a Typhoon. Development and integration of the seeker and the associated firings will take place during 2007 and may slip into 2008. It is anticipated that the Meteor Missile will be compatible with the Tranche 2 Typhoon when it is introduced into service in 2008. However, the program for the two-way data link has slipped due to funding issues. In particular the development of the interface SRI in the Captor radar Processor LRI 2, which only received interim funding and at one stage all development stopped. There is doubt that the this issue will be resolved in time to integrate the Meteor Missile into the Typhoon during Tranche 2, it could be delayed until Tranche 3 (2012). At best it appears that it will be introduced as a modification with ISD of 2010.
The Meteor Missile has been installed on all 6 AA stations (4 in the fuselage & 2 wing stations). I think it has been cleared for flight from all 6 stations. So far I think it has been fired from a wing station, I’m not sure if it has been fired from a fuselage station.
AA Meteor Integration with JSF
For the UK, when the JSF is delivered it will only be integrated with a limited range of weapons common to all users (essentially mainly US weapons, including AMRAAM). Latter customer weapons will be integrated, including Meteor. The Missile will be fired from the same stations as the AMRAAM (using the same launcher/ejectors).
AR Meteor Program Status & Comparisons with other missiles
There have been investigations into using the HARM seeker fitted to the body of the Meteor, but I have not seen any evidence that the development has been funded.
Such a combination would produce a very potent weapon.
AR Meteor (Based on AA version)
Mass: 185kg (AR version probably 200kg)
Length: 3.65m
Diameter: 0.178m
Warhead: ~30kg (AR version probably 50kg)
Speed: + M4
Range: + 100km
The key feature is that it could be installed on any aircraft capable of firing an AMRAAM. Including internal weapons bays on the F/A-22 and F-35 aircraft.
It could replace/complement ALARM and HARM missiles.
ALARM
Mass: 268kg
Length: 4.24m
Wing Span: 0.73m
Warhead: ~50kg
Speed: ~M2
Range: +45km
HARM
Mass: 360kg
Length: 4.14m
Wing Span: 1.02m
Warhead: 70/20kg
Speed: ~M2
Range: +50km
As can be seen the ALARM & HARM missiles cannot be installed in the semi-recessed fuselage stations used by the AMRAAM or Meteor missiles, nor in the internal bays of the F/A-22 or F-35 aircraft. With a modern warhead it could offer similar of better capabilities than the current missiles.
As can be seen below the AR missiles are much smaller that anti-ship missiles.
Harpoon (Air-Launched)
Mass: 516kg
Length: 4.49m (SLAM & ER)
Diameter: 0.34m
Wingspan: 0.92m
Warhead: 220kg
Speed: 855km/h (Sub-sonic)
Range: +240km
AR Meteor SEAD Operations With JSF
Apart from the obvious uses of carrying an anti-radiation missile in a LO aircraft for land based operations (SEAD), there could be tactical advantages to using such a missile when attacking a ship.
Consider a mixed package of F-35s, some equipped with long range stand-off weapons, such as the Harpoon missile installed on external pylons and others carrying only internal stores, including AR Meteor missiles. (Some or all could carry AA missiles internally).
The Harpoon could be fired at long range, while the AR Meteor equipped F-35s would be able to approach relatively close to the ship without being detected by the ships radar. Shortly before the low flying Harpoon missile came within range of the ship, the AR Meteor missiles could be fired taking out the ships radar. Further missiles may be able to engage radars controlling the close in defences.
It may be possible for a single F-35 to launch a standoff weapon, such as a Harpoon missile and then jettison the pylon and revert to LO mode of operations. The JSF could then chase the slow speed missile and launch AR Meteor Missiles to suppress ship radar during the final stages of attack.
AR Meteor on other platforms
The AR Meteor Missile would provide any other aircraft capably of firing AMRAAM missiles with a SEAD capability; however it the combination of this missile with LO that offers the most advantages. Such a missile could be fitted to the F/A-22 with good effect, but because of the limited size of the internal weapons bays this would reduce the number of other weapons carried.
Other fourth generation could employ this weapon without affecting the RCS of the aircraft.
In the future it is likely that weapons designed for internal storage in the F/A-22 & F-35 weapons bay will be used on UAV and UCAV aircraft to provide a SEAD capability.
Conclusion
If an AR version of the Meteor Missile were to be developed (possibly using the new HARM seeker), as has been suggested, by Italy and the US, it could provide the JSF with a significant SEAD capability.
When deployed in a mixed package AR Meteor Missiles could disable ship-borne radar and significantly increase the probability of standoff weapons successfully destroying the target.
As a force multiplier the AR Meteor Missile would increase the effectiveness of the proposed Australian force of F-35 aircraft when engaged with maritime targets, particularly when multiple targets are engaged and they rely on a few ships to provide early warning radar cover.
An AR Meteor Missile could provide SEAD for future UAV & UCAV aircraft.
Chris
p.s. All we need now is the funding to complete the integration of AA version, finish the two-way data-link and get a contract to develop the AR version.
The problem is getting NETMA (and the four nations) to make up their minds and let the contracts.As if money would be a problem in the EF programme.
Chris
JSF Program in Trouble.
The USAF Assistant Secretary for Acquisition, Sue Payton, has flagged intentions for curtailing and/or axing acquisition projects which are not performing, with a focus on those large projects still in development.
One would expect those being paid to do the due diligence for the Australian people would be aware of such happenings in Washington, DC.
The DMO (the prescribed agency set up to buy defence materiel as opposed to doing the capability analysis and capability development work) has just set up a project office for the procurement of 24 x F/A-18F Super Hornets and, down stream, the procurement of F/A-18G Growlers.
It would seem the Defence Chiefs have determined that Australia no longer needs stealthy, fifth generation air combat capabilities and that future generations of Australians can get by with recycled Hornet technology.
:unknown
The USAF Assistant Secretary for Acquisition, Sue Payton, has flagged intentions for curtailing and/or axing acquisition projects which are not performing, with a focus on those large projects still in development.
One would expect those being paid to do the due diligence for the Australian people would be aware of such happenings in Washington, DC.
The DMO (the prescribed agency set up to buy defence materiel as opposed to doing the capability analysis and capability development work) has just set up a project office for the procurement of 24 x F/A-18F Super Hornets and, down stream, the procurement of F/A-18G Growlers.
It would seem the Defence Chiefs have determined that Australia no longer needs stealthy, fifth generation air combat capabilities and that future generations of Australians can get by with recycled Hornet technology.
:unknown
Good info, I to would love to see source/link.
knightrider4
Active Member
Funny
What Super Hornets??? I guess that JSF doesnt look quite the fish nor fowl anymore.
What Super Hornets??? I guess that JSF doesnt look quite the fish nor fowl anymore.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
This wouldn't be part of the "just in case" back up plan would it?
Maybe Magoo has heard something, if he's lurking about the place?
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
At the moment? F-22 obviously. It's operational and F-35 is not.
As to in future, it depends who you are talking about. F-22 cannot be bought by anyone except the USAF at present. Lockheed Martin is not lawfully allowed to sell the aircraft and US law would need to be changed for that to happen.
On top of this, current flyaway price of an F-22A is US$175 million. THAT is what the USAF pays for them. Any foreign Country that may be allowed to purchase them (once legislation is enacted for this purpose) CANNOT expect to pay less than this.
The current cost of an F-35A (the conventional take off and landing variant and the cheapest of the 3) is unknown. It depends on many variables, not least of which include how many are finally purchased and how smoothly the development program progresses.
Add to this the different roles for which the aircraft were designed. The F-22 is the worlds best air to air fighter. No doubt. It is probably also the best tactical strike aircraft, though it is limited to employing 500/1000lbs JDAM's and the small diameter bomb only. No other weapon, besides it's internal cannon and air to air weapons can be operated by this aircraft.
The F-35A on the other hand operates the same air to air and air to ground weapon load, but will also be capable of operating; ASRAAM, METEOR, Harpoon, JASSM, JSOW, ALL JDAM and SDB variants, Laser guided bombs, WCMD's, Brimstone/JCM, HARM/ALARM and SLAM-ER/Storm Shadow.
The F-35A is a true multi-role aircraft. The F-22 is narrowly focussed on a few roles. But it does them superbly.
Make up your own mind...