Sorry!
French authorize troops to shoot down threatening Israeli planes
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
It was meant for Wiki.
It's called fratricide... everybody's guilty of it. To imply they did it on purpose is silly.
radiosilence
jints
yea i guess every country is killing/threatening un troops these days.
link
is it still considered fratricide, when the un position was clearly marked and they were in contact with israeli officers throught the day of the attack concerning 14 incidents of close firing to their position?
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radiosilence
jints
what does kofi anan "corrupt record" have to do with israel attacking un troops? on the issue of the killing of the 4 un troops, he is privy to a lot more info. on this matter than you or me.
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As I recall IDF was conducting counter insurgent ops in the area because UNIFIL wasn't doing a thing about it. With all the mortar teams in the area I'm not suprised they were mistaken as foes. If you read the report listed earlier it sounds kind of silly to infer it was done on purpose. If the IDF had directly targeted the post with dozens of artillery shells and PGMs there would have been more than four fatalites, there wouild have been no one alive to give an account of what happened.
Read the reports.
The UN observers (BTW, not part of UNIFIL - OGL, which is separate, & is a group of observers, unarmed except for personal defence weapons - unable to do anything about Hezbullah even if they were allowed to) were inside their post - a concrete building. The post had a UN flag, & the letters UN painted across it, very large. Its exact location was known to the IDF, & had been since before it was built, as the UN informed Israel (as it always does) exactly where the post was to be built. Hard to mistake them for a mortar team.
There were no survivors. The account comes from radio & phone logs throughout the day, & what the IDF has admitted. The Israelis had been shelling all round the post all day, & bombing nearby. It had been struck by numerous fragments, but included a bunker proof against anything short of a direct hit. Then two bombs scored direct hits. The IDF had been informed on at least 9 occasions that day that they were striking close to the post, & been asked to avoid it. The Israelis had promised to do so. Every time.
Some accident, eh? Ever heard the term "accident waiting to happen"?
When something happens once, it can be an accident. Twice can be a coincidence. The number of times Israel has shelled & bombed UN posts looks suspiciously like a pattern.
We all know the terrorist forces deliberately use innocents as shields, setting up rocket launchers in heavily populated areas, etc. Obviously a UN post would be a good point to put your forces, hoping to deter the Israelis from targeting them for fear of hitting the UN post by mistake. The Israelis target them anyway. We know from the use of percission guided weapons used in the recent wars, that they do accassionally malfunction and hit unintended targets. So perhaps it was a terrible mistake. Just as the destruction of a British IFV by a US Apache was a terrible mistake. If Hisbollah set up next to a UN base, the UN base has 2 options, target the hisbollah forces themselves, or clear the area, because Israeli won't hestitate and if the UN post gets hit, well they were warned.
Well, even if we don´t believe fully either side, and given Israel history about such incidents, i´m still more inclined to believe that some of this incidents were not accidental but deliberate, altough there´s no defenite proof.
And that´s one of the factors the Israelis may be counting on.
I think they do this for the folowing reasons; to establish, as someone said a psychological dominance over UNIFIL, and Hezzbolah, to vent some frustrations about UNIFIL mission, and also about their last campaign.
Hopefully, in the case of F-16 simulated bomb runs, the French and German naval officers took good notes of the mission profile, and are acting acordingly to prevent further incidents, and at the same time being able to intercept, if a next time comes (btw thanks for the inteligence ).
What worries me is a earlier post that stated that the F 16 suit automatically responded to the signals from the German vessel, and at the same time that same vessel automatically targeted the aircraft. If cooler heads had not interrupted this cicle, things could have gone bad. In the future, IAF should refrain from this kind of things, or we will have a shooting incident sooner or later. Also forcing a helo to return to his ship, and saying it was confused with an UAV seems a poor excuse to me, as well as saying that it should report it´s flight to IAF. It ´s ok to have communication to avoid incidents, but next time UNIFIL needs to take a piss, perhaps the Israelis would like to receive a request in triplicate forms, some 48 hours before....
.pt
And that´s one of the factors the Israelis may be counting on.
I think they do this for the folowing reasons; to establish, as someone said a psychological dominance over UNIFIL, and Hezzbolah, to vent some frustrations about UNIFIL mission, and also about their last campaign.
Hopefully, in the case of F-16 simulated bomb runs, the French and German naval officers took good notes of the mission profile, and are acting acordingly to prevent further incidents, and at the same time being able to intercept, if a next time comes (btw thanks for the inteligence
).What worries me is a earlier post that stated that the F 16 suit automatically responded to the signals from the German vessel, and at the same time that same vessel automatically targeted the aircraft. If cooler heads had not interrupted this cicle, things could have gone bad. In the future, IAF should refrain from this kind of things, or we will have a shooting incident sooner or later. Also forcing a helo to return to his ship, and saying it was confused with an UAV seems a poor excuse to me, as well as saying that it should report it´s flight to IAF. It ´s ok to have communication to avoid incidents, but next time UNIFIL needs to take a piss, perhaps the Israelis would like to receive a request in triplicate forms, some 48 hours before....
.pt
Ok, let me explain some important things.
The german ship we are talking about is an UNARMED!!!! intelligence vessel (Oste class) with nothing more than small arms for the crew onboard.
There is also no helicopter landing pad on it.
Two cannon salvos and some flares were fired over the ship while six IAF F-16 simulated an attack on the ship.
This happened ca. 50miles off the coast of Israel.
"Luckily" for us it is an intelligence vessel and so the whole show is on tape.
This has nothing to do with somebody being too fast with lighting up some F-16s on normal patrols or a ship being too close to the Israeli coast.
The first Israeli version is the one Patzek told us. They fast changed this story after our government explained some things and showed them the tape.
The incident with the helicopter is another thing which happened later. Interesting to see that the commanding admiral of the UNIFIL ships was onboard of the punished helicopter.
I think nobody here really thinks any european country would go to war with Israel. That would be impossible in my eyes.
But as said before Israel is very dependent on foreign help, imports and money. And there Israel could get a problem by acting like they do now.
The german ship we are talking about is an UNARMED!!!! intelligence vessel (Oste class) with nothing more than small arms for the crew onboard.
There is also no helicopter landing pad on it.
Two cannon salvos and some flares were fired over the ship while six IAF F-16 simulated an attack on the ship.
This happened ca. 50miles off the coast of Israel.
"Luckily" for us it is an intelligence vessel and so the whole show is on tape.
This has nothing to do with somebody being too fast with lighting up some F-16s on normal patrols or a ship being too close to the Israeli coast.
The first Israeli version is the one Patzek told us. They fast changed this story after our government explained some things and showed them the tape.
The incident with the helicopter is another thing which happened later. Interesting to see that the commanding admiral of the UNIFIL ships was onboard of the punished helicopter.
I think nobody here really thinks any european country would go to war with Israel. That would be impossible in my eyes.
But as said before Israel is very dependent on foreign help, imports and money. And there Israel could get a problem by acting like they do now.
Yes - he has capitalized in a big way due to his position, thats public knowledge.
Yes - he is very biased towards Israel.
contedicavour
New Member
To build further on Waylander's post, the IAF planes heading straight for the French frigate Courbet and coming closer than 2 miles to it with a flight profile normally used for attack missions .... is further proof that the attitude is not accidental.
One may understand IAF planes flying above Lebanon to track Hezbollah movements, even if it is in violation of UN resolution. One may eventually understand, though not caution, bombardments of positions from where rocket attacks could be launched, even if you'd need to be blind not to notice the UN tag painted on top of the building. But what on earth does a F16 on a direct attack path towards a FFG far away from the coast ??????? Did the pilot suspect a NATO FFG was delivering weapons to Hezbollahs ? Did the pilot suspect the NATO FFG was preparing to shell Israeli coastline ????
Obviously not, so this aggressive behaviour is both done on purpose, inexcusable, and simply completely counterproductive and thus stupid. :lul
cheers
One may understand IAF planes flying above Lebanon to track Hezbollah movements, even if it is in violation of UN resolution. One may eventually understand, though not caution, bombardments of positions from where rocket attacks could be launched, even if you'd need to be blind not to notice the UN tag painted on top of the building. But what on earth does a F16 on a direct attack path towards a FFG far away from the coast ??????? Did the pilot suspect a NATO FFG was delivering weapons to Hezbollahs ? Did the pilot suspect the NATO FFG was preparing to shell Israeli coastline ????
Obviously not, so this aggressive behaviour is both done on purpose, inexcusable, and simply completely counterproductive and thus stupid. :lul
cheers
Grand Danois
Entertainer
The thing that puzzle me is what is the purpose of these aggressive runs? They achieve little and cause friction with the wider international community.
The benefits seem so small that it can't possibly be worth the cost in goodwill and political capital.
I do appreciate that the Israelis have much more at stake, but UNIFIL is not the enemy. And if the IDF is frustrated that UNIFIL is in the way of taking on Hezbollah, then they should have finished the job this summer...
The benefits seem so small that it can't possibly be worth the cost in goodwill and political capital.
I do appreciate that the Israelis have much more at stake, but UNIFIL is not the enemy. And if the IDF is frustrated that UNIFIL is in the way of taking on Hezbollah, then they should have finished the job this summer...
In this case, no, they weren't. They were assured that the bombardment would stop. Several times.
Maybe the IAF is testing how far they can go. This is always nice to know if they have to fight Hezbollah again and have to operate near UNIFIL units.
But I agree that these benefits are not big enough if you compare it to the political damage.
But I agree that these benefits are not big enough if you compare it to the political damage.
Well, i stand corrected. Any way, as both waylander and conte explained, the main point remains, this kind of behaviour might lead to a shooting incident.
And altough that would not spark a war, that would spark other type of repercussions to Israel. Waylander, i guess i now know why they did it, it was an inteligence ship, so maybe they were bothered to have such "ears and eyes" so close to them, its USS liberty all over again in a sense. Still does not justify their actions.
.pt
And altough that would not spark a war, that would spark other type of repercussions to Israel. Waylander, i guess i now know why they did it, it was an inteligence ship, so maybe they were bothered to have such "ears and eyes" so close to them, its USS liberty all over again in a sense. Still does not justify their actions.
.pt
contedicavour
New Member
I understand that Israel might not feel comfortable with a modern intellignece vessel in their backyard which is able to cover the whole of Israel.
But that is not enough to justify the behaviour.
They could have tired to use a diplomatic way. Then either the vessel would have been removed or would have stayed there in international waters. It is not their decision.
But that is not enough to justify the behaviour.
They could have tired to use a diplomatic way. Then either the vessel would have been removed or would have stayed there in international waters. It is not their decision.
Ok Guys,
Seems to me there're many many versions here, which you all seems to think are true.
I can tell you the truth, whether you believe it or not, you can check 100 different news papers that will tell you something else, it really doesn't matter, I saw it happening, I know the people, if you think I lie to you is one thing, if you don't think I am, listen to me.
First of all, I want to ensure you, that the IDF, will never, and I'll say it as clear as possible, will Never, attack civilians, UNIFIL soldiers, French, German, Italian, Spanish, or any of the others that might be invloved, on purpose.
No matter what are diffrences are, no matter if we agree on things or not, we will never attack them on purpose.
We have here deep respect to the European countries trying to help, not that we think it is necessary, but we respect them.
Europe is our friend, our allies, we have no intension of attacking our friends, no matter what happened, whatever misunderstanding.
If you understand that, try and see it from other points of view, that maybe the IDF is not againts Europe, and maybe everything is INDEED a sad misunderstanding.
The case with the UN position, indeed started when UNIFIL soldiers of the mentioned above position, informed their commanders that IDF's shells are landing close to them.
Those shells came from IDF's Howitsers batteries on the Lebanese border, and was aimed at Hizballah position near the UN posts.
( If you'll search www.ynetnews.com you might be able to find an article about an email one of the UNIFIL soldiers that was killed sent to his wife. He said Hizballah are all around them, using them as shield againts the IDF, and that he is terrefied that the IDF might hit them while targeting Hizballah. ).
The Howiters batteries belongs to the IDF's artillery corps, and there was a very bad communication between the Air Force and the ground forces ( specially the artillery corps that linked directly to the field observation UAV's squads and not to the Air Force itself ).
Sadly, the specific F-16 who bombed the UN position, wasn't informed about the situation, they attacked the position with JDAM's from a very very high altitude, since their orders was to destroy every Hizballah post they find, and some lack of knowledge, and bad communication, caused the disaster.
The Pilots didn't even knew they bombed a UN position till they landed, they were afraid to tell them that during the flight, you probably can guess why.
When I recieved the news about it we were pretty shocked, myself and one of my mates who sit next to me was just shocked.
It is very sad to hear such news, specially when you know it came from your base, and those people who were sent to peace keeping mission died because of stupid mistakes that happened in the IDF because of rashness and not beeing prepared enough for this kind of opeartion.
Please, believe me. The commands that was given to the pilots was never to destroy the UN post, the pilots who bombed it never knew that they bombed a UN post, and was sure they just striked a Hizballah camp.
Indeed, such mistakes should never happen in a proffesional army like the IDF, but when there're 100 aircrafts in the air at a time, hundreds of flights everyday... things can get wrong.
But I promise you this -
It was all changed.
All of the communication systems between the corps was upgraded, we all went through new tarining to use them, we're much better connected right now, and I really hope such case wont happen again.
This is not our goal, and we have no will to attack the UN.
About the ship again...
Please people, just stop.
All of those reports are just 1 big bias, that never happened.
There was 1, a single incident with a German ship, which I said what happened a post ago.
The 2 " SHOTS " that was mentiouned by the Germans, wasn't shots, they were FLARES.
Flares beeing relased from the F-16 in a direct response to the ship's radars trying to lock on them.
Whoever said the ships wasn't armed... I have no IDEA where you got this information, the ship mentioned in this incident was indeed armed, and did had an helicopter pad on it.
Seems to me there're many many versions here, which you all seems to think are true.
I can tell you the truth, whether you believe it or not, you can check 100 different news papers that will tell you something else, it really doesn't matter, I saw it happening, I know the people, if you think I lie to you is one thing, if you don't think I am, listen to me.
First of all, I want to ensure you, that the IDF, will never, and I'll say it as clear as possible, will Never, attack civilians, UNIFIL soldiers, French, German, Italian, Spanish, or any of the others that might be invloved, on purpose.
No matter what are diffrences are, no matter if we agree on things or not, we will never attack them on purpose.
We have here deep respect to the European countries trying to help, not that we think it is necessary, but we respect them.
Europe is our friend, our allies, we have no intension of attacking our friends, no matter what happened, whatever misunderstanding.
If you understand that, try and see it from other points of view, that maybe the IDF is not againts Europe, and maybe everything is INDEED a sad misunderstanding.
The case with the UN position, indeed started when UNIFIL soldiers of the mentioned above position, informed their commanders that IDF's shells are landing close to them.
Those shells came from IDF's Howitsers batteries on the Lebanese border, and was aimed at Hizballah position near the UN posts.
( If you'll search www.ynetnews.com you might be able to find an article about an email one of the UNIFIL soldiers that was killed sent to his wife. He said Hizballah are all around them, using them as shield againts the IDF, and that he is terrefied that the IDF might hit them while targeting Hizballah. ).
The Howiters batteries belongs to the IDF's artillery corps, and there was a very bad communication between the Air Force and the ground forces ( specially the artillery corps that linked directly to the field observation UAV's squads and not to the Air Force itself ).
Sadly, the specific F-16 who bombed the UN position, wasn't informed about the situation, they attacked the position with JDAM's from a very very high altitude, since their orders was to destroy every Hizballah post they find, and some lack of knowledge, and bad communication, caused the disaster.
The Pilots didn't even knew they bombed a UN position till they landed, they were afraid to tell them that during the flight, you probably can guess why.
When I recieved the news about it we were pretty shocked, myself and one of my mates who sit next to me was just shocked.
It is very sad to hear such news, specially when you know it came from your base, and those people who were sent to peace keeping mission died because of stupid mistakes that happened in the IDF because of rashness and not beeing prepared enough for this kind of opeartion.
Please, believe me. The commands that was given to the pilots was never to destroy the UN post, the pilots who bombed it never knew that they bombed a UN post, and was sure they just striked a Hizballah camp.
Indeed, such mistakes should never happen in a proffesional army like the IDF, but when there're 100 aircrafts in the air at a time, hundreds of flights everyday... things can get wrong.
But I promise you this -
It was all changed.
All of the communication systems between the corps was upgraded, we all went through new tarining to use them, we're much better connected right now, and I really hope such case wont happen again.
This is not our goal, and we have no will to attack the UN.
About the ship again...
Please people, just stop.
All of those reports are just 1 big bias, that never happened.
There was 1, a single incident with a German ship, which I said what happened a post ago.
The 2 " SHOTS " that was mentiouned by the Germans, wasn't shots, they were FLARES.
Flares beeing relased from the F-16 in a direct response to the ship's radars trying to lock on them.
Whoever said the ships wasn't armed... I have no IDEA where you got this information, the ship mentioned in this incident was indeed armed, and did had an helicopter pad on it.
Why do you think we have any problem with those vessels?
I have really no connection to the IDF's Navy corps, but as part of the IDF'AF, I have no problem with those vessels, and I don't know my commanders have problem with them either.
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