Ireland to buy Javelin Anti-Tank Weapon System

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Manfred

New Member
The very first thing I thought of when I first saw this thread was; "the Irish are spending their newly-earned whealth on what?

I makes sense when you see the UN connection, and it also makes sense from the money side too, but there is a problem with relying on ATGMs; they are esentialy a defensive system.

you can mount an assault without armor, but it costs more blood than treasure, and is difficult today against a foe that has tanks. Even if your role is purely defensive, you need to be able to make counterattacks to regain lost ground. That is why tanks still exist.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
This is right of you think about big countrys but Ireland? :dodgy

Why should Ireland built up a tank force?
ATGMs together with IFVs should be enough for peacekeeping operations together with other nations.

Or do you think Ireland is going to attack another country in the near future?
 
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PlasmaKrab

New Member
Manfred, you have to consider that Ireland has re-engineered its armed forces specifically for peacekeeping contingencies. In a UN operation, they would never act alone, much rather have small forces integrated in larger units from other countries or task-reinforced battalions, in other words, they would have piecemealed heavier means available, from countries who can afford having them and shipping them.

Besides, where are they going to find an armored opposition? Lebanon? Somalia? Ivory Coast? you name them. Even if they do (hell, if they never do, where's the point in buying ATGMs in the first place?), their Piranhas are only battlefield taxis rather than fighting vehicles, so they could revert to old-style infantry in case they are attacked.
Now go and send your tanks dig out a coy of well-trained Irish (replace with whichever highly-trained UN-friendly nation) grunts armed with Javelins, I do think you would get you head handed back to you quickly enough.;)
 
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moughoun

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
sorry about the necro post, but anyway, we got 60 launchers, 100+ missiles plus options, about the MBTs don't really need them, yes they would be nice, but, we do have an order for more Piranhas some with 30mm cannon, the MGS was looked at but since we still don't know if it will enter large scale service in the US, never mind any where else, we passed, the centauro is being looked at now, so we'll see how that works out, the scorpions will get new diesel engines, and FCS
 
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Imshi-Yallah

New Member
Sorry to dig up an old thread but some fairly fundamental mistruths have been posted about the Irish Defence Forces on this thread.

Firstly the Irish army is based on a Light infantry brigade structure with no independent Artillery or Armour assets other than those used by the training centres (this includes the 14 CVRTs which have yet to see an operational deployment although they may yet).

However this does not mean that it has been reduced to the sort of Gendarmerie force suggested here. The three regular and to a lesser extent the three reserve brigades have their own integrated Artillery and LAR capabilities, while the Air Corps used to acting as an independent gentleman's flying club is in effect becoming the Army Aviation asset it always should have been.

The Infantry battalions are equipped along standard NATO lines for Light Infantry with rifle companies using Sustained fire role FN MAG58s (in addition to the Light Role MAG58 being the section/squad support weapon) Carl Gustav MK II RCLs with Laser Range Finders and Midi Kite sights (MKIII is on the procurement list) and Vektor 60mm mortars (which unlike their predecessors can be used in an assault role to supplement M203 fires in a rapid advance or just drop smoke/illum).

The Battalion Manouvre Support companies have the usual HMG and 81mm LB mortar platoons as well as the Anti-Tank platoon which was until recently equipped with the Milan and now the Javelin.

In addition there is a generous allocation of M136AT4 per infantry section. So you can see where the Javelin fits into the existing warfighting structure as well as for Battalion task groups for peacekeeping.

It is important to understand that the impoverished Ireland of the Cold War era developed the most realistic defence policy it could against the possibility of a Soviet invasion:

In essence the almost entirely Light Infantry based army with it's minimal logistical tail would quickly withdraw from terrain that favoured large manouvre elements such as Motor Rifle Battalions and Armoured Regiments and conduct small unit delaying actions in terrain that would frustrate enemy manouvre, logs and RISTA efforts hopefully long enough for US Forces to arrive via a specially constructed airfield and later via deepwater harbours.

Now back to topic.
The Javelin fits nicely into our brigade structure of three infantry battalions, a Logistics battalion, a field engineering company, a cavalry Squadron with Light Armour for flank security and screening and an artillery regiment equipped with L118 or L119 (reserves) light guns and until recently (pending a replacement program) 120mm mortars (a heavier variety than the US infantry 120mm).
At the moment the entire armour component of the Irish Army consists of a rather embarrassing:
1. 65 Mowag Piranha IIIH Infantry APCs with FVT800 turrets[specialised ambulance/fitters vehicles and command vehicles included, about ten in all] (original commitment was for 80 but someone needed a new government jet funded out of the pitiful defence budget which incidentally was drawn from cost savings from downsizing and property sales)

2. 36 AML 20 4x4 Light Armoured Recconaissance vehicles

3. 18 AML 90 4x4 LARs (providing cav troop fire support)

4. 14 CVRT Scorpion (concentrated in one tracked vehicle cadre)

5. 2 Patria XA-180 6x6 APCs ( a holdover from the days of using leased Finnish vehicles with UNIFIL)

6. 15 Piranha IIIH with OTO Melara HITFIST 30 turret and/or Kongsberg RWS (on order, the original break down was 9 close reconaissance vehicles with RWS and HMG/GMG and 6 Medium reconaissance vehicles with the HITFIST 30 (the TOW launcher was originally to have been deleted but a little birdy tells me their has been resistance to losing this capability). These vehicles are intended to begin the replacing of the upgraded AML series with the regular army cavalry squadrons.

7. There is also an outstanding requirement for 66 Light Armour Tactical vehicles in Mowag Eagle IV class for cavalry reconaissance, infantry liaison and artillery Fire control. The first competition to select these vehicles was cancelled to fund a new government jet (priorities,priorities. You can take the bananas out of the republic but you can't stop them running it)
The second competition was cancelled due to a lack of products that met the Army's specifications after other forces experiences with this class of vehicle in Iraq and Afghanistan highlighted weaknesses.

As you can see from the list above there is little room for a force of heavy IFV or MBTs in the current structure, we would need to multiply our logistical capabilities several times over and it would take around a decade of investment (defence proffesionals correct me if I'm wrong) to get all the required loggies, technicians and support chains in place.

Buying Javelin didn't require any change and the army is still determined to acquire more firing posts eventually enough to equip all 9 regular army battalion, as it is they have significantly more missiles than there is an armour threat in any area of operations other than Kosovo where I believe there may be some friendly combat power on hand and again now Lebanon, where we'd need a lot more than a Tank battalion to best the Israelis (why would we want to?)

Not that I don't believe in getting more armour and heavy arty capability, but that I'll leave for another time.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Nice post, champ.

Thanks for informing us of the (relatively) little known Irish armed forces.

9 regular infantry battalions. Does your use of the word "regular" mean "full time" professional battalions, or something else?

If so, dang. Australia is trying to get back up to 8!!!
 
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Imshi-Yallah

New Member
Yes that is Nine battalions of proffessional soldiers, unfortunately the equivalent nine reserve units are struggling to change to a more proffessional ethos ( a friend of mine is an officer in the Aussie Chocos and we Irish weekend warriors compare poorly at the moment).

If we had Australia or Canada's foreign policy we'd be kicking arse but the Professional army (PDF- Permanent defence force) isn't just held back by policy issues, the logistics provision for these battalions is a legacy of their former role as a largely Aid to the Civil Power and CoIN force. And is woefully inadequate for higher tempo operations, also by a combination of PDF apathy/suspicion of the reserve and the the general anti-military feel of the populace (it's like a reverse arms race between Ireland and New Zealand) a highly unproffessional and in many areas unmilitary culture has developed in the reserve forces here to the extent where in many units the culture is more akin to a youth club than a military force.
And due to the Army's unwillingness to be brutal with problematic individuals (read: the old and the bold) this situation will continue to abide for some time.
Apart from ranting about the shortcomings of my own organisation I mean to highlight the lack of a manpower reserve for those nine professional battalions, the provision of Integrated platoons, and specialist trades detachments from reserve units got to a halting start this year but until the point where each reserve battalion is capable of providing the planned company+ pool of suitably trained (and contractually obligated) personell can the nine PDF battalions be considered capable of conducting operations at battalion level as they are comparatively heavily tasked for domestic roles even with the post ceasefire rollbacks of the terrorist/insurgency threat here.

Again, I'll shut up before I get the threat locked for off topic.
 
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Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Imshi-Yallah said:
Yes that is Nine battalions of proffessional soldiers, unfortunately the equivalent nine reserve units are struggling to change to a more proffessional ethos ( a friend of mine is an officer in the Aussie Chocos and we Irish weekend warriors compare poorly at the moment).

.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the interesting information. Can I ask what the established strength of an Irish infantry battalion is?
 
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Imshi-Yallah

New Member
The infantry battalion consists of the usual three rifle companies, HQ Company and Manouvre support company with an establishment of 650.
 
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Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
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Imshi-Yallah said:
The infantry battalion consists of the usual three rifle companies, HQ Company and Manouvre support company with an establishment of 650.
Click to expand...
Wow, so there are 9 of these battalions based on this model in the Regular army?

Sorry for the questions but I see the strength of the Irish army is around 8500, so it looks like a high proportion of infantry. In NZ with 4500 in the army we have problems manning 2 battalions!
 
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Imshi-Yallah

New Member
No one said anything about being at their establishments. Unfortunately the various propositions for future restructuring focus on reducing the number of brigades in totality rather than say converting some of the existing manpower to logs support units and having them extend the reach and sustainability of two fully manned brigades.
 
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Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Imshi-Yallah said:
No one said anything about being at their establishments. Unfortunately the various propositions for future restructuring focus on reducing the number of brigades in totality rather than say converting some of the existing manpower to logs support units and having them extend the reach and sustainability of two fully manned brigades.
Click to expand...
Oh...that makes more sense then. 650 on paper, reality is all together different! :rolleyes:

If only armies fought on paper:eek:nfloorl:
 
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Imshi-Yallah

New Member
They have yet to.

Outside of the state that is, in past times reservists were used for supplementary ATCP or COIN roles, namely guarding likely terror targets (Hydroelectric dams etc) and stagging on in military establishments plus some green field patrol work in the !970s or 80s.

There has been no operational role between then and the advent of this new one which is expected to give fruit by 2008/9
 
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ryan385

New Member
Does any one know what the organizational structure for Irish infantry companies and sections is? It almost seems like they use the older British section structure of a 2 man fn mag gun team, a 3 man command/scout team and a 3 man assault team. As well as the old American company structure of a weapons platoon and two rifle platoons. Thanks for any information.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
Imshi-Yallah - With the Northern Irish peace process back on track do you know if the Irish Regular Army has started to cross-train with there UK counterparts? Historically this was a no, no for political reasons. I know UK continues to recruit from Southern Ireland, Northern Ireland and amongst the Irish community in mainland Britain, so the family links remain strong.
 
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