Turkish M60A1 upgrade

[Waylander]

It is not only in Leopard 2 A5/A6. The Leopard 2 A4 FCS also fully automatically calculates your own movement over ground, turret movement and enemy movement.
From A5 on the FCS is just a little bit more accurate but more important it is a little bit faster. Only milliseconds but these could make the difference.

As I said before the Sabra is able to hold its own in defense positions. There his inferior mobility and optics are not that big problem. Your fire line should be nearer. The main problem could be a mobile defense. Being slow means that you are not able to get into a new defense position fast enough and the pushing Ts could be able to close the gab to the defenders very fast. This is always a problem for defenders because letting the enemy not get too close is a major goal.

 

[eckherl]

Waylander also said it was roughly equal to a Leo-2A4. I also know that the optics in the sighting system is barely a 8x optic zoom, what is not much for modern battlefield conditions. This can be easily swapped by a better zooming lens not?

And the ballistic computer is this also better than the M60A3? I know that the M60A3 has not the ability to calculate the turret rotation, for moving targets, when firing the gun, the gunner must aim the gun and fire it 'in front of' the enemy to hit the target when moving. The Leo-2A5 is known to aim simply the computer elevates the gun and als the barrel will fire slightly to the left or right too. I think the Sabra 2 also has this latest type of ballistic computer?

I would agree with Waylander for comparision purposes, hey - Leo - 2A4 is darn good tank.
You have to be careful with your optics due to the fact that they are slaved to your ballistic computer capibilities and range finder (LRF)
The ballistic computer on the Sabra 2 is better, but the M60A3 does have the ability to hit moving targets on the move, when you lase to a target your target reticle will jump off target due to the fact of super elevation and vehicle lead calculations, all you have to do is place the reticle back on the target and fire. Please keep in mind that because of the stabilization system on the M60A3, your speed is going to be around 8 - 10 MPH.

 

[Soner1980]

The Leo-2A4 is for sure a good tank, but the A5 and A6 is also more advanced in armor and computerized systems.

Ok, I understood that the swapping of the lensen in the sighting box is not just swapping the lens on your glasses .

The Sabra has also the function to track the enemy when moving and not only helps you for a super elevation. Good.

But how is it about the 'target reticle'? Does the Leo-A4/A5 also have this system? I was on a leo-2A5 with the sighting system and lasing a target but not having seeing such target reticle or something. Will you explain this plz.?

 

[Waylander]

The cross-hair on the Leo 2 (A4 and A5) does not jump when you laser a moving target.
If the target is moving you use the "dynamic rate halt" (I hope this is the right translation). The target is constantly lasered and the FCS calculates the target movement. Then you can shoot.
Speed is no problem for the Leo 2 FCS. Be it 10 km/h or 50 km/h.
But if the terrain is very rough you have to be carefull that the gun does not hits its elevation restrictions. The Ts have even more problems in this, because their cannot elevate their gun as much as Leos or Abrams.
I don't know how far the M60 is able to elevate its gun.

 

[eckherl]

The Leo-2A4 is for sure a good tank, but the A5 and A6 is also more advanced in armor and computerized systems.

Ok, I understood that the swapping of the lensen in the sighting box is not just swapping the lens on your glasses .

The Sabra has also the function to track the enemy when moving and not only helps you for a super elevation. Good.

But how is it about the 'target reticle'? Does the Leo-A4/A5 also have this system? I was on a leo-2A5 with the sighting system and lasing a target but not having seeing such target reticle or something. Will you explain this plz.?

It is the same reticle that is in your primary sighting system. Vehicle azimuth plays a factor in this also.
Lets look at it this way, your ballistic computer has a ammunition card for each tank round that it will be firing, that card will have all the ammunitions information that is needed for a ballistic solution, your laser range finder is slaved to your ballistic computer, tank stabilization system and gunners primary sight. when you lase to a target your computer is going to take in account, vehicle speed, cant, crosswinds, range to target and give you a ballistic solution to fire that round, you are going to use the same reticle, depending on what type of ammunition that you are using for example a heat round, you may experience reticle jump off on the target, this is no problem just put the reticle back on target and fire. this is 2nd generation technology that is placed on the M60A3, a LEO 2A4 is a third generation tank, it will shoot, scoot and hit a target at faster speeds and do it more accurately.

 

[eckherl]

The cross-hair on the Leo 2 (A4 and A5) does not jump when you laser a moving target.
If the target is moving you use the "dynamic rate halt" (I hope this is the right translation). The target is constantly lasered and the FCS calculates the target movement. Then you can shoot.
Speed is no problem for the Leo 2 FCS. Be it 10 km/h or 50 km/h.
But if the terrain is very rough you have to be carefull that the gun does not hits its elevation restrictions. The Ts have even more problems in this, because their cannot elevate their gun as much as Leos or Abrams.
I don't know how far the M60 is able to elevate its gun.

How does the reticle/ballistic computer adjust for automatic lead when you are lasing at a moving target.
Referring to the dynamic rate halt, doe this mean you have to stop and fire.

 

[Waylander]

I hope I understand your question in the right way.

Dynamic rate halt is my translation for the german word "Dynamischer Vorhalt". I really don't know the real translation. :unknown
This doesn't mean that you have to stop to hit moving targets.
It means that you go with the cross-hair onto the target and laser it. There are two laser buttons on the gunner stick. One for normal laser (Just one impulse) and one you use against moving targets.

Ok lets assume that you try to hit a moving target while you are also moving.
You go with the cross-hair onto the target and use the second laser button "Dynamischer Vorhalt". You stay on the target for some short time. While doing that the FCS constantly lasers the target and calculates its moving. Than you shoot (And should hit ). You do not have to hold for this or reduce you speed.
During all this the cross-hair remains on the middle of the target.

If just yourself is moving and the enemy doesn't move you don't need to (But you can) use "Dynamischer Vorhalt". Your own turret movement is automatically calculated all the time.

 

[eckherl]

I hope I understand your question in the right way.

Dynamic rate halt is my translation for the german word "Dynamischer Vorhalt". I really don't know the real translation. :unknown
This doesn't mean that you have to stop to hit moving targets.
It means that you go with the cross-hair onto the target and laser it. There are two laser buttons on the gunner stick. One for normal laser (Just one impulse) and one you use against moving targets.

Ok lets assume that you try to hit a moving target while you are also moving.
You go with the cross-hair onto the target and use the second laser button "Dynamischer Vorhalt". You stay on the target for some short time. While doing that the FCS constantly lasers the target and calculates its moving. Than you shoot (And should hit ). You do not have to hold for this or reduce you speed.
During all this the cross-hair remains on the middle of the target.

If just yourself is moving and the enemy doesn't move you don't need to (But you can) use "Dynamischer Vorhalt". Your own turret movement is automatically calculated all the time.

Sounds like a good explanation to me.

 

[Soner1980]

Ok I understand the Reticle thing now. But it sounds like it is a playstation game when doing too much things with the turret-steering in a M60A3. But also accurate I think with a bit more handle than a 3rd generation FCS.

I've never been in a M60A3, the Leo-2A4/A5 is just aim, lase and shoot while on the move, yes you wrote also. Do someone has pictures from the inside of the M60A3? But I see Turkish tankers in maneuvres driving fast and also firing the gun. A gunner would only fire it's gun when he (sometimes also a she??? or shemale? ) is sure it will hit something not?

The M48A5/T2 in Cyprus I've seen there are driving 15/20 km/h (10/12 mph) in line formation and then firing to targets. But in 1974, driving like a F1 car, stop quickly aim & fire, hit the gas. (It was a Blitskrieg style action.)

The M60A3 does not have any super elevation problems like the Russian T-xx series. Also the M48 not. I saw a video with M48's like the 90mm gun was aimed like AA role. just 45 degrees from above.

 

[Waylander]

How high the gun can elevate is not as important as how much down it can elevate.

That accuracy is more important than firing speed is not always correct.
For example the first round of the defender should normally be a very accurate one but on the other hand you need to be fast while being on an assault run. It is rare that you see the defender before he sees you or misses his first shot and you should not waste this opportunity by trying to be too accurate.

 

[eckherl]

How high the gun can elevate is not as important as how much down it can elevate.

That accuracy is more important than firing speed is not always correct.
For example the first round of the defender should normally be a very accurate one but on the other hand you need to be fast while being on an assault run. It is rare that you see the defender before he sees you or misses his first shot and you should not waste this opportunity by trying to be too accurate.

Correct on the elevation issue - which is a major problem with the T series tanks, also I like the explanation on accuracy, if you are recieving fire the best thing that you can do is a full frontal attack with all guns blazing for area supression, if you have enough fighting force you should be moving units in overwatch positions or units to take care of the flanks, but in a perfect world that is not always feasible.

 

[Waylander]

Jup, the leapfrog procedure is often ideal.
But being the leading element is not the best place in the company if the enemy is well prepared and no good recon is available.

 

[eckherl]

Jup, the leapfrog procedure is often ideal.
But being the leading element is not the best place in the company if the enemy is well prepared and no good recon is available.

That is why we place the Rookie platoon leader in front.
Just kidding.

 

[Soner1980]

It is good to place the Rookie cmdr in front, than you have a good reconaissance not? Armed with 120mm it can encounter enemy as well! And when lost, it was known because of a Rookie.... joking joking.

I also know that the T-55 is a very bad gun placing in the vehicle. The turret traverses but the personnel in the turret stays were he is. Strange not? But I can not believe this vwhen I read this on the internet. To reload the turret must be traversed to another direction and loaded. This is very dangerous. The T-xx series especially the T-55 and T-62 are very bad in hull-down positions because of the less depression of the barrel. You should get out of your hull down position on the hill top to fire the gun or else you will be overrun. You can also place your T-55 down the hill but is it good to wait till the enemy is 500 meters in front of you? In a T-55?

 

[eckherl]

It is good to place the Rookie cmdr in front, than you have a good reconaissance not? Armed with 120mm it can encounter enemy as well! And when lost, it was known because of a Rookie.... joking joking.

I also know that the T-55 is a very bad gun placing in the vehicle. The turret traverses but the personnel in the turret stays were he is. Strange not? But I can not believe this vwhen I read this on the internet. To reload the turret must be traversed to another direction and loaded. This is very dangerous. The T-xx series especially the T-55 and T-62 are very bad in hull-down positions because of the less depression of the barrel. You should get out of your hull down position on the hill top to fire the gun or else you will be overrun. You can also place your T-55 down the hill but is it good to wait till the enemy is 500 meters in front of you? In a T-55?

T-80 and T-72 has very bad gun depression also.

 

[Soner1980]

Ok, and a Sabra Mk.2 used to counter a T-80U, is the Sabra a dangerous opponent for a Russian T-80U or -UM?

Turkey has the DM63 120mm APFSDS round can be fired with the 120mm CTG of the Sabra not?

 

[eckherl]

Ok, and a Sabra Mk.2 used to counter a T-80U, is the Sabra a dangerous opponent for a Russian T-80U or -UM?

Turkey has the DM63 120mm APFSDS round can be fired with the 120mm CTG of the Sabra not?

Any tank that is out there can be a dangerous opponent if that tank crew is well trained. How do you know if Turkey has the DM63?.

 

[Soner1980]

See the website of Rheinmetall: http://www.rheinmetall.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=1778

15000 rounds including training ammo. After a couiple of years we will also produce our 120mm round like we did for the 105mm boys to.

 

[eckherl]

See the website of Rheinmetall: http://www.rheinmetall.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=1778

15000 rounds including training ammo. After a couiple of years we will also produce our 120mm round like we did for the 105mm boys to.

Why tungstan over DU.

 

[Soner1980]

I don't know, but it is the same effect in penetration capabilies I think. Tungsten is also a bit more expensive than DU but also after the war you can have problems in your lungs and kidneys. The penetrating capability is unknown but it is better than the DM53 I think.