Turkish M60A1 upgrade

[Soner1980]

Yes but they talk about the best armor in the world. (Chobham or Burlington type) But not for roadside bombs only anti-tank weapons. So, you can use HE rounds in your tank to destroy tanks too.

It is a very good type of armor but not multi functional. The same for other MBT's in the world? I will reply tomorrow, I'm going to :shudder sleep...zzzzz. I'm feel like a zombie.....

 

[eckherl]

Yes I was also nfloorl: -'ing when my uncle said to me that there are still Morse telegraph systems used in Turkish army for backup. This system is so reliable that you can't cut the dialog off with electronic warfare, but with a scissors only .

All electronics can be disabled with a electro magnetic pulse (also atomic bombs) or with a jammer. The Morse can be jammed only by a jam for your bread : .

Joking is funny. But such backups can save your units asses in the battlefield. High tech is great and very easy but if it doesn't work, you need a good backup. Flares (Eckherl) are good but the enemy also see your signal.

But some tanks are invulnerable to ECM. According to a newspaper, I don't remember wich one it was, when the first Turkish tank tender in 2000 was run, the Leopard-2A6, M1A2, Leclerc and the T-84 in trials were often attacked by French sattelites with electronic jammers. So, only the Leo-2A6 and the Leclerc was invulnerable to this kind of attack and others all systems failed to accomplish their targets. I don't know what happened after this. If this is true, I hope that the Sabra upgrade will fix this gap and also for the Volkan too

For the smoke signals I was referring on how the American indians used to communicate with each other. it was a joke.
I would not place too much stock in the French stating that they can jam a MBT( M1A2 or a T-84,) from outer space, the only country that is even close to having this capability is the U.S.

Waylander - you get the Deathstars, I`ll get the pluton missles.

 

[eckherl]

Yes I was also nfloorl: -'ing when my uncle said to me that there are still Morse telegraph systems used in Turkish army for backup. This system is so reliable that you can't cut the dialog off with electronic warfare, but with a scissors only .

All electronics can be disabled with a electro magnetic pulse (also atomic bombs) or with a jammer. The Morse can be jammed only by a jam for your bread : .

Joking is funny. But such backups can save your units asses in the battlefield. High tech is great and very easy but if it doesn't work, you need a good backup. Flares (Eckherl) are good but the enemy also see your signal.

But some tanks are invulnerable to ECM. According to a newspaper, I don't remember wich one it was, when the first Turkish tank tender in 2000 was run, the Leopard-2A6, M1A2, Leclerc and the T-84 in trials were often attacked by French sattelites with electronic jammers. So, only the Leo-2A6 and the Leclerc was invulnerable to this kind of attack and others all systems failed to accomplish their targets. I don't know what happened after this. If this is true, I hope that the Sabra upgrade will fix this gap and also for the Volkan too

For the smoke signals I was referring on how the American indians used to communicate with each other. it was a joke.
I would not place too much stock in the French stating that they can jam a MBT( M1A2 or a T-84,) from outer space, the only country that is even close to having this capability is the U.S.

Waylander - you get the Deathstars, I`ll get the pluton missles.

 

[eckherl]

I know this kind of aiming. The crosshairs and the extra lines are called 'Stadia' lines. Russian tanks used Stadiametric range finder in it's tanks till the T-80 came in service. The T-64 is believed to have a stereoscopic (doule lensed sight) range finder.

The stadia lines are also used in sniper rifles but this is a different story (also working the same). You described that you can enter the range with your hand to the system but when if this also shows '8888' on your display? Than you have to use your own calculations plus estimate the super elevation. I have read a story that NATO tankers were so experienced with a M48A3 with a 1960's state of the art fire control system.

Text from www.fas.org
"A good crew in Europe was able to put the first round on target 90% of the time, but this required excellent teamwork and communication on the part of the entire crew. In peacetime qualification, it was possible to stop from a speed of 20 mph, acquire the target, and get off a first round kill at 2,000 yards in seven seconds."

So, was this able with a Leo-2? I think that today it is faster because of the technology, but when malfunction occur, then you can not do this in 7 seconds anymore.

What you are referring to with the 888 is a bad range return on your LRF, if you cannot use you primary FCS you have a GAS system on your tank for battlesight engagements, for 105mm battlesight range is 1200 meters, for 120mm battlesight range is 1600 meters, that is firing KE or Heat style ammunition. Stereoscopic sight systems were designed by Germany and they are very accurate, better than the coincidance range finder found on your basic M60 A1. Pretty much all tanks that are out there have a Auxillary sighting system.

 

[Soner1980]

1600 meters for a 120mm? Maybe with the new ammo not? The M829A1 is 1500m a think, but I can be wrong. For HEAT and other 'slow' ammo the battlesight range is 800 I read from the 'tankers bible' not?

The Gunners Auxilary Sight, the GAS, you can see this sight easily on a M60 and M1 series on the side of the barrel. Like it's coaxial mg, but the glass shines.

The 8888 is when there is an error like you said the range is not correct lased, or maybe systems failed.

 

[eckherl]

1600 meters for a 120mm? Maybe with the new ammo not? The M829A1 is 1500m a think, but I can be wrong. For HEAT and other 'slow' ammo the battlesight range is 800 I read from the 'tankers bible' not?

The Gunners Auxilary Sight, the GAS, you can see this sight easily on a M60 and M1 series on the side of the barrel. Like it's coaxial mg, but the glass shines.

The 8888 is when there is an error like you said the range is not correct lased, or maybe systems failed.

I guess it all depends on who`s tanker bible that you are using, I never had any experience with the GAS glass being shiny, not any more than the Primary gunners sighting system, muzzle velocity is not a factor for heat style ammunition for it`s effects, you can get it out there accurately at those ranges.

 

[Soner1980]

Is a HEAT round not slower than Sabot? I know the M829A1 can reach to 1700 meters per second and the HEAT round to about 1100 meter per second. Ofcourse I need the characteristics of the producer of the ammunition.

For a M16 round of 5,56mm caliber the battlesight range is 300 meters, my bro told me

About the GAS sight, that the glas will shine I think it's from the flash of the photo camera and not of the sun or something.

 

[eckherl]

Is a HEAT round not slower than Sabot? I know the M829A1 can reach to 1700 meters per second and the HEAT round to about 1100 meter per second. Ofcourse I need the characteristics of the producer of the ammunition.

For a M16 round of 5,56mm caliber the battlesight range is 300 meters, my bro told me

About the GAS sight, that the glas will shine I think it's from the flash of the photo camera and not of the sun or something.

Yes - a heat round does have less velocity than a Sabot, but if you know the ballistics/super elevation of the round for each 200 meters in range that is in use you can offset the GAS sight for extended battlesight ranges.

 

[Soner1980]

Hey, I've been a Sergeant and I'm not informated. Where is my decoration too?

Ok I have the answer now from you Eckhrl. From Waylander I donn't know but we were unable to find such an answer about the super elevation. But every person is different, I'm glad that we are all unique.

Do you also know the penetration capabilities of the tank guns? I have found a website describing all ammo and it's gun with penetrating capabilities.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm

What do you think about this site?

 

[eckherl]

Hey, I've been a Sergeant and I'm not informated. Where is my decoration too?

Ok I have the answer now from you Eckhrl. From Waylander I donn't know but we were unable to find such an answer about the super elevation. But every person is different, I'm glad that we are all unique.

Do you also know the penetration capabilities of the tank guns? I have found a website describing all ammo and it's gun with penetrating capabilities.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm

What do you think about this site?

Okay - Master Gunners carry a little booklet called firing tables for each ammunition that NATO would carry in their inventory that would be compatible for each NATO gun, in that booklet it gives you super elevation/drift/muzzle velocity and flight time for each range setting in meters,with that information you can manually set up your GAS sight on the tank. For example purposes lets take a look at the German DM13 round
at 1600 meters, you would have a initial muzzle velocity of 1650 m/s, at 1600 meters you would have a remaining muzzle velocity of 1533 ms, super elevation needed to be added to the gun would be 3.1 mils, time of flight would be 1.0 seconds. I do not place too much stock in what I get on line seeings how alot of it is hyped up to make it marketable. And to get decorations you have to earn them.

 

[Waylander]

Maybe it's my english but I don't get the point?
Were's the problem?
Emergency firing procedures?
Every country got its own ones.
The US use their firing charts, the UK do, the Germans do, etc.
I explained the german emergency firing procedure.

Why do you need special elevation datas for your ammo?
If all the emergency procedures don't work you just fire by feeling just because a normal gunner knows how his ammo behaves. You just estimate the range and fire.

 

[eckherl]

Maybe it's my english but I don't get the point?
Were's the problem?
Emergency firing procedures?
Every country got its own ones.
The US use their firing charts, the UK do, the Germans do, etc.
I explained the german emergency firing procedure.

Why do you need special elevation datas for your ammo?
If all the emergency procedures don't work you just fire by feeling just because a normal gunner knows how his ammo behaves. You just estimate the range and fire.

I was trying to do is prove a point to Soner1980, Maybe I am not following him on exactly what he is talking about. If you have the super elevation information you can put a round on target alot more accurately instead of attempting an adjustment fire. Sorry for sticking my nose into the conversation between you and Soner1980 and I`ll butt out the post.

 

[Soner1980]

Eckherl, you have the same picture on your mind what I have. You answered my question. Waylander got another picture and it is not because of his English is good or weak but how you take it in your head.

But he also said the answer,"(...)Why do you need special elevation datas for your ammo?
If all the emergency procedures don't work you just fire by feeling just because a normal gunner knows how his ammo behaves. You just estimate the range and fire."

Also the emergency procedures can differ from each countries but it's also a NATO procedure I think.

Eckherl, no problem when you are trying to help us. Or you sticking your nose in our communication. Do you know why I like Western tanks and not the Russian tanks? In Western tanks the crew member is 4, and in Russian tanks 3. Making a Wester tank more smart than the Russian. 2 persons are smarter than 1 and also 4 persons are smarter than 3 not?

 

[Waylander]

@Eckherl
I really enjoy every post of you so don't stand back if you think that you have something to add.

@Soner
Maybe I am getting close to the point you both are talking about.

 

[eckherl]

@Eckherl
I really enjoy every post of you so don't stand back if you think that you have something to add.

@Soner
Maybe I am getting close to the point you both are talking about.

Not a problem, enjoy chatting with you guys.

 

[Soner1980]

If all of the people from everywhere of the world was like us here, then nobody need a weapon to defend themselves...not? So tolerant and peaceful, but we are here to discuss. A pencill is stronger than a sword...

Btw. I have a question of fire control systems installed on a M60A1, A3 and the Sabra. What are the differences between A1 and A3? And finally the Sabra?

 

[eckherl]

If all of the people from everywhere of the world was like us here, then nobody need a weapon to defend themselves...not? So tolerant and peaceful, but we are here to discuss. A pencill is stronger than a sword...

Btw. I have a question of fire control systems installed on a M60A1, A3 and the Sabra. What are the differences between A1 and A3? And finally the Sabra?

M60A1 fire control consist of coincidence range finder, passive night sights 1st generation stabilization system, 1st generation ballistic computer, takes in account super elevation for each type of ammunition to be fired.

M60A3 fire control consists of Laser range finder, thermal night sights, (driver still uses passive) improved 1st generation stabilization system, 2nd generation ballistic computer that takes in vehicle cant, crosswind, super elevation, thermal shroud for gune tube.

Which Sabra do you want 1 or 2.

 

[Soner1980]

I think the Sabra Mk.2 because of Turkey's selection

 

[eckherl]

I think the Sabra Mk.2 because of Turkey's selection

It is a major M60A3 upgrade with an attitude ie:
120 mm main gun with out a lot of turret modifications
Thermal imaging
Better stabilization system
Up graded fire control system
New turret electric drive

 

[Soner1980]

Waylander also said it was roughly equal to a Leo-2A4. I also know that the optics in the sighting system is barely a 8x optic zoom, what is not much for modern battlefield conditions. This can be easily swapped by a better zooming lens not?

And the ballistic computer is this also better than the M60A3? I know that the M60A3 has not the ability to calculate the turret rotation, for moving targets, when firing the gun, the gunner must aim the gun and fire it 'in front of' the enemy to hit the target when moving. The Leo-2A5 is known to aim simply the computer elevates the gun and als the barrel will fire slightly to the left or right too. I think the Sabra 2 also has this latest type of ballistic computer?