T-90 in Comparison to Western Armour

[extern]

the other peripheral thing that the sight problem hilights is that these T-90's are obviously not NBC kitted - and that means utility and tasking restrictions.

All russian tanks starting from T-64 (exept the early batchs and exported units of T-72) have overpressure system and air filtration kit for non-conventional weapon protection. It includes T-90S of course. THe Indian army chief once said that these tanks - were the second Indian strategic weapon, bcz in case of even nuc war the tank regiments would survive, and it would take only few hours to reach Islamabad suburbs.

The article is about due to bad performance of T-72 in Gulf War, the Russians held a large-scale live round experiment on T-80U and T-90 to check the protection capabilities. ...In conclusion, the result is quite OK, at least not as bad as western predicted, and, it was T-90 whom had a better result
url origin article
url with google translator

The information about comparative tests in this article was took from this russian internet source (in english hovewer): http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html (it is one of the mirrors on a ukranian site).

I suspect that some idiot bean counter who is completely unaware of the sensitivity of modern electronics and who sees aircon as a luxury for the blackhats, has decided to save project money by culling the aircon option.

60degs cent will fry FCS and optics - it is not in the ideal operating range.

I seriously doubt that the russians can be blamed for this - esp if they have built the component to the end users specs. IMV The blame fairly and squarely lies with the failure of the Definition Team. (The arjun history supports it as well IMV)

Indeed, all Russian tanks starting from T-80, have tropicalised variant with compact internal AC system, that bring cool air just for tank crew. It's relative advanced system, taking in account the stiff space.

Hovewer, the problem is, such system was'nt designed for electronnic stuff cooling bcz all russian electronics itself was designed for working in extremal conditions. As the T-90 developers say now, the french IR Catherine camera was asked by the customer as an undisputed last moment stipulation. Naturally, the tank with Catherine was not over all needed hot condition tests (like the remained parts of the tank were) . Now the russians offer more capable external AC device, that will be installed on the T-90 tanks going to Algeria and Libia. There is the pictures:

 

[aaaditya]

That actually reinforces the project planning problems they're having. They also have FCS overheating problems with the arjun - and thats because they're not air conditioned. The temps reach 60deg cent inside - so the project team should have been kicked up the rear for not airconditioning the platform.

I suspect that some idiot bean counter who is completely unaware of the sensitivity of modern electronics and who sees aircon as a luxury for the blackhats, has decided to save project money by culling the aircon option.

60degs cent will fry FCS and optics - it is not in the ideal operating range.

I seriously doubt that the russians can be blamed for this - esp if they have built the component to the end users specs. IMV The blame fairly and squarely lies with the failure of the Definition Team. (The arjun history supports it as well IMV)

actually an airconditioning unit was developed for the arjun project ,but was rejected by the indian army on the grounds of cost savings.

 

[gf0012-aust]

All russian tanks starting from T-64 (exept the early batchs and exported units of T-72) have overpressure system and air filtration kit for non-conventional weapon protection. It includes T-90S of course. THe Indian army chief once said that these tanks - were the second Indian strategic weapon, bcz in case of even nuc war the tank regiments would survive, and it would take only few hours to reach Islamabad suburbs.

these Indian tanks don't appear to be fitted with NBC protection at all. - overpressure kits are normally part of the A/C.

 

[gf0012-aust]

actually an airconditioning unit was developed for the arjun project ,but was rejected by the indian army on the grounds of cost savings.

which is atrocious bean counting on display...

 

[eckherl]

But u thought that the performance difference between the 2 was as much as between a M-60 && an ABRAMS..isnt that true???

The T-90 does have improvements, with the M-60 series we pretty much hit a wall for major improvements ie: armor protection, firepower and mobility that is why we went to a entirely new tank design. The Russians have been able to find improvements for the T-90, Ukraine has been able to keep the T-80 soldiering on. But both are pretty much reaching their point as to where Russia will be going with a different style tank system in the future. The Performance improvements on the T-90 are not huge in nature.

 

[extern]

these Indian tanks don't appear to be fitted with NBC protection at all. - overpressure kits are normally part of the A/C.

It is may be true for other tanks, but not for Russian tanks: the T-64, T-80B, T-80U, T-90A in russian army - all have NBC protection but no one has A/C. Only the tropicalized export-oriented versions have it.

 

[kams]

these Indian tanks don't appear to be fitted with NBC protection at all. - overpressure kits are normally part of the A/C.

They are. They have a positive pressure system coupled to a air filtration system. All Exercises of IA for the past 3 years have been conducted under simulated NBC conditions.

actually an airconditioning unit was developed for the arjun project ,but was rejected by the indian army on the grounds of cost savings.

A/C was dropped due to loss of power. It was replaced with individual cooling systems for the crew and later when problems were noticed in sights, cooling pads were designed for the electronics.

During the trials of T-90's, failure rate of Catherine was around 10%. A solution in line with Arjun is being developed.

 

[eckherl]

They are. They have a positive pressure system coupled to a air filtration system. All Exercises of IA for the past 3 years have been conducted under simulated NBC conditions.


A/C was dropped due to loss of power. It was replaced with individual cooling systems for the crew and later when problems were noticed in sights, cooling pads were designed for the electronics.

During the trials of T-90's, failure rate of Catherine was around 10%. A solution in line with Arjun is being developed.

Where is the positive pressure system located on the tank, is it set up like the Russian versions.

 

[kams]

Where is the positive pressure system located on the tank, is it set up like the Russian versions.

I believe so, here is pic of Indian T-90 from exercise Sanghe Shakti. Looks like Indian T-90 have the A/C or is it the Air Handling Unit?

 

[eckherl]

I believe so, here is pic of Indian T-90 from exercise Vajra Shakti. Looks like Indian T-90 have the A/C or is it the Air Handling Unit?

It looks like a A/C unit.

 

[eckherl]

I believe so, here is pic of Indian T-90 from exercise Sanghe Shakti. Looks like Indian T-90 have the A/C or is it the Air Handling Unit?

Can you get a better shot of the Tank, it may be a turret sponser box.

 

[kams]

Can you get a better shot of the Tank, it may be a turret sponser box.

Added one more, take a look. This is the best shot I could find.

 

[eckherl]

Added one more, take a look. This is the best shot I could find.

It doesn`t have a A/C unit, it looks like they are depending on the basic overpressure system, which they should be able to improve on.

 

[extern]

Can you get a better shot of the Tank, it may be a turret sponser box.

There is not external AC on the indian T-90S. The customer desagreed to include it. I think, because it rise the cost .

 

[eckherl]

There is not external AC on the indian T-90S. The customer desagreed to include it. I think, because it rise the cost .

Are they going to decide to go with it now and if so will they have to do some major reconfiguring of turret components or the wiring harness of the turret.

 

[extern]

Are they going to decide to go with it now and if so will they have to do some major reconfiguring of turret components or the wiring harness of the turret.

Russian sources say the Russian tank A/C developers are keeping touch with their counterparts in India in developing new cond sys for indian T-90S.

 

[eckherl]

Russian sources say the Russian tank A/C developers are keeping touch with their counterparts in India in developing new cond sys for indian T-90S.

Then I would think that it will be resolved fairly quick.

 

[kams]

Then I would think that it will be resolved fairly quick.

eckherl, extern, Thanks for your inputs. Couple of question.

The external A/C pack for Libya/Algeria you mentioned, when was it designed (Year)?

I wonder whether the latest batch of 300+ T-90s India ordered from Russia will have A/C?

 

[eckherl]

eckherl, extern, Thanks for your inputs. Couple of question.

The external A/C pack for Libya/Algeria you mentioned, when was it designed (Year)?

I wonder whether the latest batch of 300+ T-90s India ordered from Russia will have A/C?

I would think maybe around the late nineties due to the fact that South Korean T-80`s have air conditioning, I could be wrong though.
Maybe Extern knows that answer. I am getting a little off subject but I would like to ask you about a rumor flying around that India is looking at the BMPT for possible purchase, any truth behind this.

 

[kams]

I am getting a little off subject but I would like to ask you about a rumor flying around that India is looking at the BMPT for possible purchase, any truth behind this.

Hmmm, couple of week back there was a news about MoD having cleared procurement of 123 'next generation' BMP-2K, armed with 30mm 2A 72 two-belt automatic cannon, a 100mm 2A 70 semiautomatic gun, three 7.62mm PKT machine guns and the 9K 117 BASTION machine gun, weighing 21 T. While the main armament matches BMP-3 weight does not. We have been wondering about it. Here is the news report.

Posted 10/09/06 13:41
Indian Army Overhauls Tank, Vehicle Fleets
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI

The Indian Army is making massive efforts to upgrade or replace its tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

In June, Army officials received Defence Ministry permission to order about 1,000 T-90 tanks from the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) for $2.5 billion.

The first batch of 300 T-90s will be built by OFB’s Medak and Avadhi ordnance factories in southern India, which are to turn out 50 tanks in 2009, 100 tanks the next year and 150 the year after that. No new facilities will be needed; the Avadhi plant built 186 T-90s from Russian-made kits beginning in 2004, part of a 2001 deal that also imported 124 fully assembled T-90s from Russia.

Last month, ministry officials approved the Army’s $90 million proposal to order 123 next-generation BMP-2K infantry combat vehicles from OFB. The vehicles will be built under license from Russia’s Rosoboronexport and delivered from 2007 to 2008.

The BMP-2Ks will replace about 600 Soviet-made BRDM-II (Striker) troop carriers bought in the mid-1970s.

One senior OFB official said it would be a challenge to introduce the advanced vehicles, for which India is the only export customer so far.
The new vehicles will provide more firepower, armor, mobility and reliability. The vehicle will have the VESNA/K sighting system with a thermal imaging camera; SOZh gunsight with improved optics and a two-dimensional stabilizing system; an integrated laser rangefinder; electromechanical loading system for anti-tank guided missiles; new, more accurate and deadlier rounds; additional armor; Arena-E active protection kit and SHTORA-1 electro-optical countermeasures. The 21-ton BMP 2K will carry seven people plus its three-person crew.

It will be armed with a 30mm 2A 72 two-belt automatic cannon, a 100mm 2A 70 semiautomatic gun, three 7.62mm PKT machine guns and the 9K 117 BASTION machine gun. The fire-control system will be able to launch eight anti-tank guided missiles at once.

The Army has also decided to upgrade its 1,600 T-72 M1 tanks to the Russian T-72S standard. Such upgrades are available from the Czech Republic, Poland and Ukraine. No contract has been signed for the upgrade work. Most of the current fleet was built at Avadhi from 1982 to 1986. More than 40 percent are unused because of age and obsolescence.

The Army’s 900 BMP-IIs are being upgraded in a $700 million program slated to run through 2012, with new engines, thermal sights, advanced land navigation systems and global positioning units, and nuclear-biological-chemical protection. A tracked, light amphibious vehicle, the BMP-II has been used in urban and rural counterinsurgency operations in the northern state of Jammu and Kashmir, the Army official said.