Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Sea Toby]

The first OPV is expected to be launched this month in September. With her superstructure modules already barged over, they will either be installed when launched or will soon be installed after her launch. With the second OPV's hull modules being shipped with the Canterbury, it shouldn't take much time to weld them together in the same space as the first OPV. While I am not sure, I read somewhere that the second OPV's superstructure modules were barged over with the first. The first OPV is expected to be commissioned in April next year, I suspect she'll start sea trials in February. Both OPVs should enter service next year.

Tenix New Zealand is also building the IPVs. I have not heard of any delays. Tenix appears to be building the ships on time and within budget. One cannot say that about every military program worldwide. Cheers to Tenix for managing this.

Sorry, I slipped. The Absalon is Danish.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Canterbury Begins Final Pre-delivery Fit-out


(Source: New Zealand Defence Forces; issued Sept. 25, 2006)



Defence Minister Phil Goff today announced that the first of the Project Protector ships, the Multi Role Vessel (MRV), Canterbury, arrived in Melbourne yesterday from the Netherlands for the final phase of construction.

"The Canterbury will remain in Melbourne for the next four months while weapon and military communications systems are fitted and the crew undergo training. Once the work is complete, the Canterbury will be commissioned into the Royal New Zealand Navy and begin its first voyage to New Zealand said Mr Goff.

"During delivery from the Netherlands, the ship encountered a variety of weather, including a series of deep low-pressure systems with 8-9 metre swells and near storm force winds. I am advised that the ship performed exceptionally well in the conditions and provided a very comfortable ride.

"The Canterbury will, for the first time, provide the New Zealand Defence Force with the capability to deploy personnel and equipment by its own means. It will greatly improve New Zealand's ability to respond to natural disasters in the Pacific and elsewhere, and will further enhance New Zealand's contribution to peace and security in our region and beyond. The MRV represents yet another significant and careful investment by this Government in our defence force".

"The first of the Offshore Patrol Vessels, one of two being built by Tenix in Melbourne, will be launched in November. The second Offshore Patrol Vessel and the four Inshore Patrol Vessels, being built by Tenix Shipbuilding New Zealand, in Whangarei will be launched and delivered throughout 2007. The total project cost is NZ$500 million with more than $110 million coming to New Zealand industry", said Mr Goff.

Well Canterbury has arrived, Good news I'll have a quick look around for any pictures of it all, any one have any?

 

[Norm]

I was in Melbourne recently on business, from the flyover freeway (Westgate Freeway) its very easy to spot the Canterbury accross the bay at Williamstown's Tenix facility.Tenix have a large brown double bay work shed on the flight deck for the fit out workers, no sign of the 25mm gun yet forward.

The OPV1 (Otago) has the bridge fitted and superstructure in place.Looked like exhausts 4-5 m back from the bridge waiting on the funnel surrounds to be fitted.I was viewing from a few K's away so cannot be 100%.All the computer simulations on the Navy/NZDF sites show the Funnels at the back beside the Helicopter entrance.If they have been moved it would be better for later fitting a close in weapon giving it a better arch of fire.

Interested in seeing a post if anyone gets a closer look to confirm.In any event its looking on track to launch November so all will be confirmed then,I'd imagine plenty of official pitures at that time.

 

[Lucasnz]

Launch Date for HMNZS Otago

The RNZN Website has been updated to give the launch date for the OPV "Otago" as the 18th of November.

Has some small photos showing the MRV alongside a very small looking ANZAC and a one of the OPV on the slip.

http://www.navy.mil.nz/

 

[icelord]

The Delivery Schedule

MRV - CANTERBURY, Jan 07 (Christchurch/Canterbury)
OPV(1) - OTAGO, Apr 07 (Dunedin/Otago/Southland)
OPV(2) - WELLINGTON, Oct 07 (Wellington)
IPV(1) - ROTOITI, Jan 07 (Napier/Hawkes Bay)
IPV(2) - HAWEA, May 07 (Greymouth/Wesport/West Coast)
IPV(3) - PUKAKI, Sep 07 (Nelson/Marborough)
IPV(4) - TAUPO, Dec 07 (Whangerei/Northland)
hey, its ahead of schedule, any other news about OPVs?

 

[Sea Toby]

In less than three weeks the Otago will be in her domain, the water. Since her electronics will be similar to the Canterbury, she'll probably go through sea trials faster. Next year the RNZN will be transformed.

The RNZN posted such a low resolution pictures on their website I couldn't tell whether the Canterbury's or the Otago's main armament have been installed, the pictures fuzzed away as I attempted to enlarge them.

 

[RubiconNZ]

In less than three weeks the Otago will be in her domain, the water. Since her electronics will be similar to the Canterbury, she'll probably go through sea trials faster. Next year the RNZN will be transformed.

Exciting times indeed, does anyone know how the recruiting is going for it? Thats my concern now that things seem to be going well Protector wise.

 

[Sea Toby]

Considering the personnel numbers to crew the new ships is similar to the crew size of their last Leander frigate, New Zealand shouldn't have any difficulty manning these ships. If there is a problem, I would think they would fill the crews for both the OPVs, and only man the IPVs with one crew each instead of multi-crewing them with 6 crews for 4 boats. Of course, doing this would shortened the IPVs patrol time at sea.

 

[icelord]

Glad to hear the kiwis are moving, multi crewing is essential in keeping a ships hours up, i think the site stated somewhere near 960 days for the IPVs, this mean if six work as planned in the project, each does around 158 days, while a reduction without crew may increase this to around 300 per ship, as lack of crews means some ships may have to take on more hours to carry the slack, these days also indicate the crews working out at sea, and do not include extended, and i was always bad with math so may be way off

 

[mug]

Don't quote me as a reliable source, but I understand that the RNZN is struggling to get the numbers for the new ships. Our local RNZNVR CO was also speculating that it may even mean the RNZNVR getting one of the IPVs to play with permanently.

Watch this space ...

 

[icelord]

See, why the hell don't we have an Actual Navy reserve. If a Part time unit was formed in the north, they would be able to supplement the main fleet, relieving some pressure from the full time crews, and also providing a platform for Ex-RAN to still serve in some capacity while in other jobs, how many ex crew work for tenix, ADI(Thales) and have no current experience of whats required, i'm not taking a dig at their knowledge, but say they have worked for the company for 10years, a lots happened in the navy in the last 5 let alone 10, so they could miss some things that would be beneficial today, it would not only be a plus for the company, but for the navy which would not need to ask for requirments after the fact.
Does the RNZN offer something similar to my rant, or i'm i, as always, full of it?

 

[mug]

In theory, I guess that's what the RNZNVR is for. However, there's a shortage of sea-going places (ie ships) for the VR, which cuts down the options (and thus attractiveness) somewhat.

There's also the RNZNR, although I don't really know who or what they are, or what they do.

 

[Lucasnz]

In theory, I guess that's what the RNZNVR is for. However, there's a shortage of sea-going places (ie ships) for the VR, which cuts down the options (and thus attractiveness) somewhat.

There's also the RNZNR, although I don't really know who or what they are, or what they do.

Under the Defence Act all NZDF service personnel are liable for 4 years (2 years after 20 years service) inactive (or active reserve service if they choose). The RNZNR is the holding force for naval personnel. If I recall correctly there is only one active RNZNR at present, but they don't publish stats on the RNZNR anymore.

As for the RNZNVR personally I don't think the RNZN or CN (who I don't think is fan of the VR) has any idea with what to do with the Rockies. The downscaling of NCS (sorry Maritime Trade Ops), with a ban on recuirting into that branch all indicate that. The only way forward I see for the VR is for personnel to be trained as specialists - Combat Systems Operator etc (like they use to in the 1970's) or else go back to MCM.

 

[Gibbo]

Considering the personnel numbers to crew the new ships is similar to the crew size of their last Leander frigate, New Zealand shouldn't have any difficulty manning these ships. If there is a problem, I would think they would fill the crews for both the OPVs, and only man the IPVs with one crew each instead of multi-crewing them with 6 crews for 4 boats. Of course, doing this would shortened the IPVs patrol time at sea.

I've also heard from Navy sources that manning the new 'Protector' fleet is going to be a challenge initially. While the 'old' Canterbury (F421) had a crew of around 250 it was a single crew with 1 set of officers. The new fleet requires 7 crews with 7 sets of officers - 9 if they follow thru with the '6 crews rotating for the 4 IPVs' concept. RNZN are desparately short of officers etc although I know they feel that with the new fleet there will be greater career opportunities for officers, especially those that desire command of a vessel. That will hopefully help improve personnel retainment rates.

Of the current 5 IPC's (Moa class etc) they were, with the exception of HMNZS Kahu, until recently operated by the RNZNVR - true volunteers and therefrore were by no means 'always at sea'. They used them for NCS; basic MCM; SAR & EEZ patrols.

Full out at 12 knots they weren't ever a serious patrol vessel. Ideal for inshore MCM though, something Kahu was tasked with if Manawanui (dive tender) was unavailable. In fact Kahu used to be named Manawanui before being replaced by the present vessel of the same name. It performed all the tasks of the current vessel and still has a small decompression chamber on board for divers.

The new IPV's will be operated by the regular force with opportunities for RNZNVR to crew onboard - although I don't know how the practicalities of that concept will work out. They will not be tasked with MCM - EEZ patrol, NCS & SAR will be their bread & butter! Damned fine looking vessels too!

Agree - if they can't man new vessels they are likely to go for just the 1 crew per IPV & perhaps there's a possibility of RNZNVR getting one to play with - hell why not, if the vessel is otherwise tied-up I'm all for the 'vollies' getting it!

The MRV & OPV's are getting 'obstacle avoidance sonar' - not sure about the IPV's. If they do, wouldn't it be ideal for basic MCM operations!?!

 

[NZLAV]

RNZN Update: Project Protector

Source: www.navy.mil.nz

Size matters
The Navy’s Multi Role Vessel, Canterbury, is now in Williamstown, Melbourne to complete her final fit out of military and communications equipment prior to acceptance into New Zealand service. Job specific training and preparation has been underway for many months, however now the first members of Canterbury’s commissioning crew are also in Melbourne, completing training courses for the systems onboard their new ship.

The MRV is 131m in length, similar to the RNZN tanker HMNZS ENDEAVOUR (at 138m).

OPV Progress
Progress continues on the other six vessels due to commission during 2007. The launch of the first Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV), OTAGO, will occur in Williamstown on 18 November 2006.

Check out the size of the MRV compared to an ANZAC frigate(amazing): www.navy.mil.nz on front page

Info and fantastic pic of MRV: http://www.navy.mil.nz/visit-the-fleet/project-protector/canterbury-specs.htm

Plus there is a very revealing pic of the OPV on the homepage.

 

[NZLAV]

RNZN Frigates

The RNZN has 2 ANZAC class frigates which I think is a waste of time. I think unless NZ is goin to have 5-6 frigates, they should stick to a large number
(10) OPV's. I would love to see New Zealand with 5-6 frigates but I think having just 2 is a waste of time. Why can't the $11.5 billion surplus be spent on 4 new frigates and 3 dozen F-16's?

 

[Aussie Digger]

The RNZN has 2 ANZAC class frigates which I think is a waste of time. I think unless NZ is goin to have 5-6 frigates, they should stick to a large number
(10) OPV's. I would love to see New Zealand with 5-6 frigates but I think having just 2 is a waste of time. Why can't the $11.5 billion surplus be spent on 4 new frigates and 3 dozen F-16's?

I guess a modular ship with weapons and sensor packages employed as required on a common hull would make a reasonable platform. As long as the OPV platform chosen was sufficiently large to accomodate weapons and sensor capabilities, similar to or greater than what the RNZN Frigates operate now. The larger and more powerful the weapon systems, (generally) the larger the ship.

With newer generation technologies, the level of automation is increased and crewing requirements are lower, which is one of the biggest issues in operating such a large fleet.

Abilities to operate in large sea states are also an issue with smaller ships. Any replacement would have to be able to operate in similar or greater sea states to the ANZAC frigates. This requirement is usually met by hull size, design and tonnage.

Unfortunately when you start looking at all these requirements, it starts looking and sounding very much LIKE a duck...

 

[Sea Toby]

New Zealand only has a population of 4 million, and your wish list of 6 frigates is half of Australia's 12 surface warships, a nation of 20 million. The RNZN is having problems filling the crews of the ships they have now, where do you suppose New Zealand will find more crews to man 4 more frigates? Would you support a draft?

While frigates run in the neighborhood of NZ$500 million or so, operating the 2 Anzacs they have now run NZ$500 million per year. To operate 4 more frigates, New Zealand would need to triple that amount, to NZ$1.5 billion per year. That's a lot of money. Its not so much the original costs, which are significant, but we have to keep in mind operating costs too.

It costs even more to buy and operate fighters. And where are you going to find the crews to fly and maintain the fighters on top of finding the crews to operate the frigates? Would you support a draft?

We are talking a significant increase in personnel and their costs. But yes, there was a NZ$11 billion surplus this year. This does not mean that there will be a similar surplus next year. But with a NZ$11 billion surplus, New Zealand can afford to spend more on defence.

However, there are limits to personnel. Drafting military personnel to fill the ranks takes away from the civilian workforce paying taxes. You'll be surprised how quickly the surplus would disappear.

 

[Ths]

Well I must say: What are those frigates supposed to do?

Are there specific missions such as the ability to survey a huge area?

Is the the frigates just there to keep the compentency of operating independenly capable ships on real oceans?

Without knowing anything specific, I would think You needed to survey a large area to stop russian or chinese submarines.

That really gives the numbers and the capabilities You need.
Have any long range patrol planes?

In reality given patrol area, OPFOR, international alliances, there is not much You can do. A Frigate needs a certain crew to have the necessary endurance - a newer ship might need less men; but that has to be balanced against the investment.

The problem of recruting. well it is characteristic that at a time when the Danish defence bitterly sought to keep conscription for the army, the navy only had conscript cooks. That is a fellow even the Captain will treat politely - as likes to be able to eat what he is served.

The tasks in the North Atlantic is I suppose roughly comparable to the New Zeeland scenario. And our stock of professional sailor has been depleted over the years as freighters and fishing boats gives the bread to fewer sailors these days.
Generally I am against conscription - having had the more than dubious pleasure myself - except in a national emergency/constant heavy threat situation.
My advise is make the carrier more attracktive. It is the need and requirements that drive the expenses; not - though some politicians portray it like that - the other way round.

 

[Boolag]

The Quigley defence report from back in the 1990s determined an absolute minimum of 3 frigates for the RNZN, with 4 being a more suitable minimum no.
as well as retaining and maybe expanding the airforce combat wing..the purpose of this report was to determine wether we actually needed a blue water navy and offensive air combat force.

Our fighter pilots now have nice jobs in other countries and wont be coming back..the cost of training a new cadre would be in the $100's of millions including a re-established training infrastructure..the only option is an unmanned aircombat wing..but can ya see that happening any time soon?


The MRV and OPV's are NOT surface combatants..they could have been, thru improved weaponry fitouts.but then again the frigates can only engage 2 targets at a time with seasparrow, and their anti-sub capablities are minimal..so they arent really much better off..but they could still bombard the crap out of Fiji with thier main gun, so thats a plus..kind of.

the navy isnt really helping itself either..a number of E/W and radar technicians stationed on the Te Mana + Te Kaha Quit their jobs and joined the civilian workforce a couple years ago because the navy refused to provide futher tertiary training for them in their chosen career paths as it was afraid of losing them to the civilian market if they were too highly skilled...hah the irony..maybe that $11 Billion surplus should be better spent on buying a Giant boot to kick the NZDF in the arse...oh and maybe Helen wouldnt be so hard on defence spending if she came out of the closet and got herself a nice girlfriend...Shes way too uptight..or maybe she plans to defend nz single-handed from a rubber dinghy armed with darts made from defence white paper documents.

that is all.