Brazil desires to have a true blue water navy. They currently operate an aircraft carrier (albeit old) and have a very ambitious program to develop a nuclear submarine. However their lack of sophisticated supporting vessels (frigates, destroyers, cruisers) makes the aircraft carrier unable to make long cruises in possibly hostile waters. My qusetion is: Is Brazil's navy a paper tiger?
Brazilian Naval Strength
- Thread starter fylr71
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All of the Latin American navies do very well during the Unitas Exercises every year. Although their ships aren't as new as European navies, the professionalism of the Latin American navies shine, including Brazil.
However, I wonder whether these navies have enough operational funding, to have more days at sea each year. The only thing holding them back in my mind is their operational funding. But it's a paradox, the more sea days operating older ships is to see the ships ageing quicker.
However, I wonder whether these navies have enough operational funding, to have more days at sea each year. The only thing holding them back in my mind is their operational funding. But it's a paradox, the more sea days operating older ships is to see the ships ageing quicker.
contedicavour
New Member
The nuclear submarine programme is still far away from "steel cutting"fylr71 said:
Brazil's budget goes on 2 new SSKs supplementing the 4 T209, on the improved Barroso corvette programme, and that's about it.
If more budget were available, Broadsword ex RN frigates would be updated (1 is already in reserve, another will soon follow if no budget), and the Sao Paulo ex-Foch carrier would be armed (plans include Aspide NG SAMs).
Sad story for an otherwise efficient and respectable navy.
cheers
brazil has a top class navy,but i believe that they should be more outgoing visting different countries and carrying out joint excercises with them.
also i believe that it is about time that they acquire 10 ultramodern stealth estroyers(horizon,type-45daring etc),atleast 20 frigates(lafayette,spanish frigates by bazan etc) an equal number of corvettes ,of atleast 2500 tons ,and aopv's for their coast guard(atleast 20),and some lpd's or lhd's 9i believe 3 to 4 spanish galicia class or the french mistral class would be a real force multipliers.
though brazil is setting up quality submarine lines,i believe that they are neglecting their surface warship design and construction.
so what is your opinion guys?
also i believe that it is about time that they acquire 10 ultramodern stealth estroyers(horizon,type-45daring etc),atleast 20 frigates(lafayette,spanish frigates by bazan etc) an equal number of corvettes ,of atleast 2500 tons ,and aopv's for their coast guard(atleast 20),and some lpd's or lhd's 9i believe 3 to 4 spanish galicia class or the french mistral class would be a real force multipliers.
though brazil is setting up quality submarine lines,i believe that they are neglecting their surface warship design and construction.
so what is your opinion guys?
Brazil's berthing space at its naval port is pretty full as is. Brazil will need another naval port for a navy larger than Britian's. Yes, Brazil buys new submarines, acquires used frigates, and attempts to build corvettes and patrol boats. But the submarines claim a large percentage of their capital budgets, and rightly so. Its shipbuilding projects are delayed considerably by a lack of proper funding, it seems it takes a decade or more to build a small surface warship.
While Brazil has an old aircraft carrier, its airwing comes up lacking. Its air force is a F-5 Freedom Fighter air force, not useful on a carrier. In the future they might get some older French Etendards for the old carrier. Brazil is a large developing nation, still with lots of poverty among the masses. Their army thereby gets the first priority for funding, and rightly so, the air force and navy are second.
If the Brazilian Navy could acquire useful second hand submarines in great shape, they would. Since they can't, the bulk of the navy's purchasing power is used to buy new submarines. The government acquires a suitable small number of used frigates when they become available from larger navies.
I don't see this history changing anytime soon.
While Brazil has an old aircraft carrier, its airwing comes up lacking. Its air force is a F-5 Freedom Fighter air force, not useful on a carrier. In the future they might get some older French Etendards for the old carrier. Brazil is a large developing nation, still with lots of poverty among the masses. Their army thereby gets the first priority for funding, and rightly so, the air force and navy are second.
If the Brazilian Navy could acquire useful second hand submarines in great shape, they would. Since they can't, the bulk of the navy's purchasing power is used to buy new submarines. The government acquires a suitable small number of used frigates when they become available from larger navies.
I don't see this history changing anytime soon.
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I don't know where you get the idea that Brazil could get all that equipment.aaaditya said:
I think almost any country would want all that weaponry. The only problem is the massive amount of money needed for all those ships. The type 45s go for $1.5 billion, the Horizons for $770 million, the F100 frigates for $680 million, and the Lafayettes for about the same amount. The Galicia and Mistrals go for around $350 million. Brazil's ENTIRE defense budget is $11 billion
There's a reason why the UK has plans for only 8 type 45. Brazil's navy operates on mostly 70s technology for them to suddenly jump out and buy even 1 or 2 of the modern warships being suggested would make the warships price go way up because they lack anything close to the level of technical experise to operate the warship. They would need huge amounts of training from the country where the ship was purchased. I'd say purchase 2 Perry class frigates following their decomissioning. The technical expertise needed would not be that much more then what is needed to operate the Broadsword class.
contedicavour
New Member
To be realistic, Brazil can afford only second hand major surface units with the current budget.
The UK still has in reserve 3 Broadsword Batch 2 (2 to Romania, 1 to Chile, so still 3 around). The USN can offer some of its 9 OHP frigates currently in the Naval Reserve. Not to mention the Spruance (all deleted from service). Other than that, Germany and Italy will have used FFGs on the market after 2010-2012.
In order to make the Sao Paulo decently useful (obsolete A4s are useless for anything other than training), Brazil should buy second hand Super Etendard from France ASAP. Not that the SE are the panacea, but at least they are modernized and can launch guided bombs and Exocets. They lack BVR and are subsonic, but at least it would be better than the A4s.
Regarding the SSKs, the 2 new evolved T209s currently building are good. Wasting the rare budget on SSNs would however be nonsense.
Let's not forget the Brazilian Air Force operates Mirage III, F5E/F and AMX. Desperate need for modern fighters there as well.
Cheers
The UK still has in reserve 3 Broadsword Batch 2 (2 to Romania, 1 to Chile, so still 3 around). The USN can offer some of its 9 OHP frigates currently in the Naval Reserve. Not to mention the Spruance (all deleted from service). Other than that, Germany and Italy will have used FFGs on the market after 2010-2012.
In order to make the Sao Paulo decently useful (obsolete A4s are useless for anything other than training), Brazil should buy second hand Super Etendard from France ASAP. Not that the SE are the panacea, but at least they are modernized and can launch guided bombs and Exocets. They lack BVR and are subsonic, but at least it would be better than the A4s.
Regarding the SSKs, the 2 new evolved T209s currently building are good. Wasting the rare budget on SSNs would however be nonsense.
Let's not forget the Brazilian Air Force operates Mirage III, F5E/F and AMX. Desperate need for modern fighters there as well.
Cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Woah I didn't have that news. What a strange decision, knowing that Brave and Boxer could have been sold for at least 30-40 million dollars each (more if a refit had taken place in the UK before transfer).Gladius said:
Really a shame !
cheers
With the exception of the four new Tupi SS, I would say that it is not a paper tiger, however it is far less capable than initial examination would suggest. It's carrier has a theoretical sqd of 15 A-4's, however only 6 are maintained in operational condition and those have no AsuW weapondry aide from dumb bombs. The only land based ASuW assets Brazil has is a Sqd of 10 or so A-1's that are reportedly Exocet capable (however Brazil's entire inventory of air-launched Exocets is less than a dozen rounds)fylr71 said:
Its 4 Type 22 Frigates are of limited operatal capability and at least one of them has been taken out of service.
Brazil's "upgrade" of its 6 Niteroi FF was little more than fitting an 8 round Aspide SAM launcher.
Brazil's 4 Inhumana FF have no SAMs
Its "New" class of Barrossa FF (possibly 1 in service with at least 3 more on the way) also have no SAMs and only a small number of Exocets.
Now compare this to Chile, who does have a smaller number of surface escorts, (8 v 14) however Chile's warships are much more capable with Sea Wolf/Sea Sparrow/SM-1 SAM's and Harpoon Blk2
contedicavour
New Member
Yep one would even say that if it weren't for the Sao Paulo carrier, the Brazilian Navy would be inferior to the Chilean one in ASUW, AAW, ASW... basically in everything but Marines/Amphibious potential.JBodnar39 said:
2 remarks and one question
> 1st remark : the Aspide launcher on the Niterois carries Aspide NG missiles, with longer range (18km) and faster speed (mach 3.5 vs 2.5 for Aspide standard). Hence, not bad deal for a relatively low cost modernization.
> 2nd remark : the improved Barroso will only be delivered in 2008, 12+ years to build a corvette.... ouch, not very promising !
> the question : what source confirms that only a dozen Exocets exist in the inventory ?
cheers
contedicavour said:
REG the Aspide launcher, yes, for the money it was a good upgrade, however the system is marginally effective.
Didn;t know about the Barrossa, I thought they had already delivered one.
The source re the Exocets came from SIPRI, which keeps a very comprehensive database of military purchases and deliveries - although Brazil has recieved a number of ship launched Exocet versions (as many as 80+ MM40's) it has only received 12 Exocets that were designated as air-lauched capable (I do not know if they can adapt any of the ship based missles for an air-launched role.
contedicavour
New Member
Thks for the info on the Exocets.JBodnar39 said:
Vs the Aspides NG, I don't know what the original intention of the Brazilian Navy was, still they have a missile with a comparable range to ESSM (Jane's puts Aspide NG at 21km vs 18km for ESSM). There are only 8 rounds, true, still not bad. Overall, almost as good as a 8-round VLS ESSM, for much less money invested.
Besides Aspide NG, the Niterois have Sea Trinity 40mm CIWS guns.
Overall, quite good self defence. Probably not enough to save Sao Paulo carrier from a determined air&missile attack, but enough to protect the frigate itself.
cheers
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More information about the upgrade of the Niteroi class frigate;
http://www.segurancaedefesa.com/ModFrag_update.htm
http://www.segurancaedefesa.com/ModFrag_update.htm
contedicavour
New Member
Thanks, very well written article. After reading I'd definitively say that the modernization has brought back these ships to modern FFG standards, comparable in at least ASUW and AAW with the Chilean Doorman and Type 23. The Type23 are much newer, but let's not forget the Sea Wolf VLS has a maximum range of 6 (six !) km only. The Niteroi can engage targets starting from 21km away...murene said:
cheers
contedicavour;
the missiles Sea Wolf VLS that fitted in the type 23 they have a maximum range of 10 km, due to the employment of a booster against the 6 kms of the of system launched from six-tube launchers in the type 22 Brazilians, maintaining the number maximum of two missiles guided at the same time in the three types of ships (type 23 , type 22 batch 1 and Niteroi class) by the 2 radars of having guided GEC-Marconi Type 911 tracker in the ships of british construction and the same thing in the Niteroi with the 2 RTN-30X.
the missiles Sea Wolf VLS that fitted in the type 23 they have a maximum range of 10 km, due to the employment of a booster against the 6 kms of the of system launched from six-tube launchers in the type 22 Brazilians, maintaining the number maximum of two missiles guided at the same time in the three types of ships (type 23 , type 22 batch 1 and Niteroi class) by the 2 radars of having guided GEC-Marconi Type 911 tracker in the ships of british construction and the same thing in the Niteroi with the 2 RTN-30X.
contedicavour
New Member
On the range we must have different sources : Jane's claims that the VLS Sea Wolf has a range of 6km, vs 5km in the non-VLS version on the Broadswords batches 2 and 3, and vs 4km in the non-VLS version on the Broadsword batch 1 (Brazil's).murene said:
Anyway, 6 or 10, it is massively inferior to Aspide NG's 21km.
When an incoming missile arrives 1000km/h (for example) those extra 11km would leave you 40 seconds to do something about it.
cheers
Why is everyone trying to make Brazil into a second tier naval power? The only major nation in their sphere of influence is the US and it would be foolish to even bother expanding to anything near our capabilities. Look at what Brazil's potential threats are and you'll see how silly this is. Brazil's naval doctrine is based on sea denial thru littoral suppression. She cannot and does not want to conduct blue water operations. If push comes to shove and she is at odds with a naval power like .... I can't even think of one realistically, say another 2nd tier navy then she will call on her big brother to the north, end of problem. All Brazil cares about is anti-submarine warfare with some limited strike capability which Sao Paulo is a shining example of. While it might be nice to have some AAW it's out of their budget. Looking at potential threats to Brazilian commerce, it's most likely going to be enemy subs and she has good ASW assests... very good.kilo said:
contedicavour
New Member
Agree, but keeping a ship the size of the Foch/Sao Paulo in service just to fly around obsolete A4s is a bit of a shame. You also need several assets to protect it in case of overseas deployment. That's why when the French Super Etendards will start becoming available for rock-bottom prices in the next 5-10 years, it will be a good idea to buy them immediately.Big-E said:
cheers