Greece decided at July 2005 to buy 30 F-16/B52 +10 as option. At the end of 2005 decided not to use the option. It's moving to a 4th Generation Fighter, closing to a 30 (+30) airframes. Eurofighter maybe is the stronger competitor, but also keep in mind that Greece is using since 1974 Mirages (F1, M2000, M2000-5). Gripen also is on the scene, but with less possibilities.Brit said:
Arms race: Greece & Turkey
- Thread starter Brit
- Start date
- Status
Greece as anyone who is using AH-64Ds will have Longbows Radars to a ratio 1:4 (1 with radar, 3 no radar). Netherlands has no Longbow Radar (their choise) and it wasn't released for Egypt.turin said:
Greece is going to purchase 12 AH-64D, 3 (+1 spare) FCRs/RFIs with the option of 4 AH-64D and 1 FCR/RFI.
Anyone with common logic can understand that also Greece is going to upgrade the existing 20 AH-64As to -D the next years, since US Army will no longer support -A model.
Turkey (Rotor&Wing, May 2006) will decide for a maximum of 90 attack helicopter at June 2006, between A-129 Mangusta, Tiger, Rooivalk (South Africa), and Ka-50-2.
341-Phalanx
New Member
Turkish situation 01.06.2006 :smokie
75 F-16C/D Block 50 (Under CCIP modernization) will reach blk52 level
103 F-16C/D Block 40 (Under CCIP modernization) will reach blk52 level
37 F-16C/D Block 30
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator ( with powerful SAR radar )
71 F-4E Phantom
32 RF-4E Phantom
46 F-5 2000 (under delivery)
9 (N)F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (Turkish Stars Air Acrobatic Team)
Air-to-air missiles
314 AIM-120A/B AMRAAM (176 AIM-120A + 138 AIM-120B)
367 AIM-7E Sparrow
127 AIM-9X Sidewinder (Ordered)
210 AIM-9B Sidewinder
500 AIM-9M Sidewinder
640 AIM-9L/I Sidewinder
310 AIM-9S Sidewinder
750+ AIM-9P3 Sidewinder
Air-to-ground missiles
95 AGM-88B HARM
99 AGM-142 Popeye I
50 AGM-84K SLAM-ER (Ordered) Long Range Standoff Land Attack Missile (277km+)
50 AGM-154A-1 JSOW Block-II (Ordered)
54 AGM-154C JSOW-C / Broach (Ordered)
274 AGM-65G1 Maverick IIR
550 AGM-65A/B Maverick
200 GBU 8/B HOBOS
1.200 GBU 10/12 Paveway I-II
523 BLU 107 Durandal
n/a AN/AVQ 23 Pave Spike (laser designation pod for F-4E)
40 AN/AAQ 14 LANTIRN
40 AN/AAQ 13 LANTIRN
22 Litening-III (20 optional) (ordered)
Tactical transport aircrafts
0 A400M (10 ordered)
7 C-130E Hercules (to be upgraded)
6 C-130B Hercules (With ELINT/SIGINT equipment)
16 C-160T Transall
50 CN 235-100M (3 VIP/16 EW)
7 KC-135R-CRAG Stratotanker
Early warning aircrafts
0 B-737-700/MESA THEIK (4 ordered + 2 optional)
75 F-16C/D Block 50 (Under CCIP modernization) will reach blk52 level
103 F-16C/D Block 40 (Under CCIP modernization) will reach blk52 level
37 F-16C/D Block 30
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator ( with powerful SAR radar )
71 F-4E Phantom
32 RF-4E Phantom
46 F-5 2000 (under delivery)
9 (N)F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (Turkish Stars Air Acrobatic Team)
Air-to-air missiles
314 AIM-120A/B AMRAAM (176 AIM-120A + 138 AIM-120B)
367 AIM-7E Sparrow
127 AIM-9X Sidewinder (Ordered)
210 AIM-9B Sidewinder
500 AIM-9M Sidewinder
640 AIM-9L/I Sidewinder
310 AIM-9S Sidewinder
750+ AIM-9P3 Sidewinder
Air-to-ground missiles
95 AGM-88B HARM
99 AGM-142 Popeye I
50 AGM-84K SLAM-ER (Ordered) Long Range Standoff Land Attack Missile (277km+)
50 AGM-154A-1 JSOW Block-II (Ordered)
54 AGM-154C JSOW-C / Broach (Ordered)
274 AGM-65G1 Maverick IIR
550 AGM-65A/B Maverick
200 GBU 8/B HOBOS
1.200 GBU 10/12 Paveway I-II
523 BLU 107 Durandal
n/a AN/AVQ 23 Pave Spike (laser designation pod for F-4E)
40 AN/AAQ 14 LANTIRN
40 AN/AAQ 13 LANTIRN
22 Litening-III (20 optional) (ordered)
Tactical transport aircrafts
0 A400M (10 ordered)
7 C-130E Hercules (to be upgraded)
6 C-130B Hercules (With ELINT/SIGINT equipment)
16 C-160T Transall
50 CN 235-100M (3 VIP/16 EW)
7 KC-135R-CRAG Stratotanker
Early warning aircrafts
0 B-737-700/MESA THEIK (4 ordered + 2 optional)
CCIP F-16s will reach blk 50+ level not 52. 50 and 52 have different engines and some structural differences due to the engines.
Big-E FYI Greece is also going to start a new generation combat aircraft tender very soon. Its very likely that they will opt for Typhoon or Rafale according to Greek sources which means earlier delivery dates than JSF. They are already operating AWACs aircraft , They have a solid force of F-16 and M-2000s as well, now tell me about balance again..
Big-E FYI Greece is also going to start a new generation combat aircraft tender very soon. Its very likely that they will opt for Typhoon or Rafale according to Greek sources which means earlier delivery dates than JSF. They are already operating AWACs aircraft , They have a solid force of F-16 and M-2000s as well, now tell me about balance again..
Numbers of what? Troops? Yes we have a clear advantage here.. But otherwise Greece is armed to teeth and capable of defending herself from any country in the world...
I suggest you check out the inventories of both armed forces to have an insight..
Although the forum below requires membership its a good place to learn more about Turks and Greeks..
edt: I removed the links according to the forum policy.
I suggest you check out the inventories of both armed forces to have an insight..
Although the forum below requires membership its a good place to learn more about Turks and Greeks..
edt: I removed the links according to the forum policy.
Last edited:
I looked at it and the Greeks are still outnumbered by 2:1, there equipment is higher quality in some areas but Turkey is quickly closing this gap and the balance of power will shift to her favor which will surely lead to war according to Pentagon policy papers.beleg said:
16. Do not post LINK/URL to external FORUMS and message boards
Big-E you may be very surprised but Turkey and Grece have been discussing the Aegean and other problems behind closed doors for years now. Greek press has recently published a news that a deal on the Aeagean problem was almost done if not for Greek PMs last minute objection (due to internal politics). The deal was agreed by both countries military and mfas.
I am sure that Turkey and Greece will overcome their problems. There is no possibility of war as long as Turkey is on the road to EU membership..
Regardsing your 2:1 ratio.. I think either you didnt read the links or you are missing the important items.. Let me sum them up for you..
3.5 gen fighters
Greece = 133 F-16 + 50 M-2000 + 35 F4 PI= 205
Turkey = 215 F-16s + 52 F4TII = 265
TuAF is %30 more
MBTs
Greece = 350 LeoII(A4+A6) + 600 LeoIs + 500 M60s = 1450
Turkey = 300 Leo2(A4) + 170 M60Ts + <400 LeoIs + 750 M60s = 1600
i ignore M48s which are worthless.. still no 2:1 ratio
Subs
Greece = 12 Type 209s (4 with AIP)
Turkey = 14 Type 209s
Frigates
Greece = 4 Meko200H + 10 Kortenaer = 14
Turkey = 8 OHPs + 4Meko200TII (similar to Greek Hydras) + 4 Meko200 = 16
AT Helos
Greece = 20 AH-64A + 12 AH-64D (4 longbow radars)
Turkey = 9 AH-1Ws + 27 AH1-Ps
SPHs
Greece = 24 PzH2000 + 12 M109A5 + ~180 M109s = 230+
Turkey = 48 T-155 (K9 derivative) + 360 M52T = 400+
maybe the only area TAF exceeds Greece both in quality and quantity is artillary systems and UHs.
SAMs
Greece = 2 S300 + 6 Patriot + 9 Crotale + 4 Tors
Turkey = 8 I-HawkXXI
As we see in the numbers above in all critical areas Greece has a formidable force for a country of its size and population. There is no 2:1 ratio except in a few areas. They have a particularly strong airforce and a strong navy which decides the fate of modern battlefileds..
I am sure that Turkey and Greece will overcome their problems. There is no possibility of war as long as Turkey is on the road to EU membership..
Regardsing your 2:1 ratio.. I think either you didnt read the links or you are missing the important items.. Let me sum them up for you..
3.5 gen fighters
Greece = 133 F-16 + 50 M-2000 + 35 F4 PI= 205
Turkey = 215 F-16s + 52 F4TII = 265
TuAF is %30 more
MBTs
Greece = 350 LeoII(A4+A6) + 600 LeoIs + 500 M60s = 1450
Turkey = 300 Leo2(A4) + 170 M60Ts + <400 LeoIs + 750 M60s = 1600
i ignore M48s which are worthless.. still no 2:1 ratio
Subs
Greece = 12 Type 209s (4 with AIP)
Turkey = 14 Type 209s
Frigates
Greece = 4 Meko200H + 10 Kortenaer = 14
Turkey = 8 OHPs + 4Meko200TII (similar to Greek Hydras) + 4 Meko200 = 16
AT Helos
Greece = 20 AH-64A + 12 AH-64D (4 longbow radars)
Turkey = 9 AH-1Ws + 27 AH1-Ps
SPHs
Greece = 24 PzH2000 + 12 M109A5 + ~180 M109s = 230+
Turkey = 48 T-155 (K9 derivative) + 360 M52T = 400+
maybe the only area TAF exceeds Greece both in quality and quantity is artillary systems and UHs.
SAMs
Greece = 2 S300 + 6 Patriot + 9 Crotale + 4 Tors
Turkey = 8 I-HawkXXI
As we see in the numbers above in all critical areas Greece has a formidable force for a country of its size and population. There is no 2:1 ratio except in a few areas. They have a particularly strong airforce and a strong navy which decides the fate of modern battlefileds..
My whole point is Turkey = JSF and possibly EF deal. Greece equals no 5th gen fighter. If Turkey gets JSF and Greece doesn't this will be a fundamental shift in the balance of power as JSF renders everything else obsolete. Considering Turkey's active forces number 700,000 and Hellenic forces number well under 200,000 I think the numbers speak for themselves.:shudder
And i said above that they will start a tender this year to acquire new gen fighters by 2010s.
USA invaded Iraq despite its huge troop numbers by only a handfull of troops.. Troop numbrs dont mean so much anymore when advanced weapon systems deal horrible amount of damage. Being American you know it better than all of us.
USA invaded Iraq despite its huge troop numbers by only a handfull of troops.. Troop numbrs dont mean so much anymore when advanced weapon systems deal horrible amount of damage. Being American you know it better than all of us.
We thought it was enough in Iraq as it turned out we should have tripled our forces. This was a completely different scenerio than a Greek/Turkish conflict, your talking about a war of attrition with equal tech and Turkey could win just b/c of greater manpower. Having JSF makes it twice as bad. No 5th gen program will be better than JSF for the near term.beleg said:
There is no real winner in a fight of technologically equal opponents.. Both nations would end up in stone age. Besides i think Greece will acquire JSF if Turkey goes for JSF as well.. The tactical & strategical benefits of having JSF is too good to be skipped as you mentioned above.
341-Phalanx
New Member
BLK50+ ?beleg said:
nope, with CCIP Tuaf F-16s will not have conformal fuel tanks.
blk52 and 52+ have same avionics. Blk52+ has ONLY conformal fuel tanks as a different.
Yes blk50 and 52 have different engines but both of them have 29.000lbs thrust. blk40s have 29.000lbs thrust too.
so Turkish blk40s and 50s will reach blk52 level not blk50+ or blk52+
Interesting....
Ultimately it comes down to who the guy flying the plane is. Doesn't matter if one is in a JSF or one is in a Viper.
You guys spend all this time talking about a possible war between Greece and Turkey and who would win when war isn't even an option given that both will be in the EU by 2010.
As far as procurements go, it really wouldn't matter because Turkey, should they procure anything new or even if they don't, would probably join countries like Iran in a new vendetta against Israel - a scenario that seems more and more likely with each passing day in the new Middle East.
Should Turkey be allowed to purchase the JSF, and I'm sure that is a big IF, then you can rest assured that Greece will buy it just as quickly. Why? It's all about having the same as the country next to you. Old school mentality of your neighbour is your biggest enemy - which won't matter anymore because Europe is too busy becoming one entity.
Attila
Ultimately it comes down to who the guy flying the plane is. Doesn't matter if one is in a JSF or one is in a Viper.
You guys spend all this time talking about a possible war between Greece and Turkey and who would win when war isn't even an option given that both will be in the EU by 2010.
As far as procurements go, it really wouldn't matter because Turkey, should they procure anything new or even if they don't, would probably join countries like Iran in a new vendetta against Israel - a scenario that seems more and more likely with each passing day in the new Middle East.
Should Turkey be allowed to purchase the JSF, and I'm sure that is a big IF, then you can rest assured that Greece will buy it just as quickly. Why? It's all about having the same as the country next to you. Old school mentality of your neighbour is your biggest enemy - which won't matter anymore because Europe is too busy becoming one entity.
Attila
Dear Phalanx,
the main difference between the 0 and 2 models are the engines and the structural differences that the engines require, ie bigger air intakes..
a blk 50 is identical with a blk52 avionics wise.
a blk40 is totally different plane than a blk 50 but avionicwise its same with 42.
So since Turkish F-16s are blk30/40/50 they cannot be blk52+..
They will be blk50+ which have the same operational capabilities with blk52+ but different engine.
CFT can be mounted on both blk50 and blk52 and has nothing to do with the + issue.
the main difference between the 0 and 2 models are the engines and the structural differences that the engines require, ie bigger air intakes..
a blk 50 is identical with a blk52 avionics wise.
a blk40 is totally different plane than a blk 50 but avionicwise its same with 42.
So since Turkish F-16s are blk30/40/50 they cannot be blk52+..
They will be blk50+ which have the same operational capabilities with blk52+ but different engine.
CFT can be mounted on both blk50 and blk52 and has nothing to do with the + issue.
Dear Attila,410Cougar said:
Its not Turkey should be allowed to purchase or not. Turkey is a level 3 partner of the project design phase. This year Turkey will decide if she wants to buy the aircraft thus be a partner in the production phase too. So if there is an IF its on the Turkish hands. Greece otoh is not a partner of the project and even if they announce they want to buy the plane as soon as Turkey decides to buy it (which they canot since they have to make a tender) they will have to wait since they are not a production partner.
I dont know if from cold Canada , where people need to hug eachother for warmth, it looks like EU is becoming one entity but it looks slightly different from here.. Just check out the recent developments in energy transit news..
I dont know where you come to conclusion that Turkey will join Iran in a vendetta against Israel. I'd really like to read some credible evidence here, since just recently Turkey has accused Iran for raising the tensions and trying to acquire nukes that will disturb the balance in the region.
and lastly for your first comment,
It does matter if a guy flies in a viper and other in JSF.. Both Turkey and Greece has good pilots. When both pilots are good , the planes and their capabilities matter alot.
Sorry Beleg, over 100 here the last few days so I wouldn't know about the cold part. Maybe check the weather network or use one of those satellites of yours to find out what the weather is really like over here...
The eventual goal of the EU is to become one Union, is it not? Doesn't matter how much time they take progressing to that stage, but the eventuality is clear and present.
Maybe Turkey will join Iran, maybe they won't. Who knows for sure? I think though that there is still a LOT of hatred towards Israel but that isn't a discussion to have in this thread.
Regardless of what scenarios everyone puts forth, really, what are the odds of a war between Greece and Turkey? Seriously? And what would be the catalyst of it? Apart from the ocean borders which recently resulted in a collision between 2 planes what other reason could cause a war between you 2?
Attila
The eventual goal of the EU is to become one Union, is it not? Doesn't matter how much time they take progressing to that stage, but the eventuality is clear and present.
Maybe Turkey will join Iran, maybe they won't. Who knows for sure? I think though that there is still a LOT of hatred towards Israel but that isn't a discussion to have in this thread.
Regardless of what scenarios everyone puts forth, really, what are the odds of a war between Greece and Turkey? Seriously? And what would be the catalyst of it? Apart from the ocean borders which recently resulted in a collision between 2 planes what other reason could cause a war between you 2?
Attila
It does not, stealth is the ultimate force multiplyer unless visual has been established. In BVR this will never happen.410Cougar said:
410Cougar said:
Huh
You must not keep up with EU politics. No way Turkey will be an EU member by 2010. It will take several years for the EU to determine wether Turkey has conformed to EUs governance laws. The ascension talks will take at least 10-15 years so your looking at past 2020 for EU membership.Considering Turkey is closely connected with Isreal's defense industry I don't know why you'd say this.410Cougar said:
Turkey is the top level three partner on JSF with more invested than Australia or Canada which means they get dibs well before your country does on the first builds. Considering UK is the only partner (level 1) who is going to get the software codes Turkey won't be able to sell her secrets, but she will be able to pound her demands to the Hellenic forces with this superior 5th gen fighter.410Cougar said:
Ok ok ok
So a JSF piloted plane will beat a Viper piloted plane.
Maybe Turkey won't even join the EU - but I think that because they are in the process of doing it that there won't be any type of war between them and Greece. How could that possibly help their PR with the EU?
I say that Turkey would go against Israel because previously weren't they involved in wars against Israel? If I'm wrong on that, then I'm sorry and take it back.
Canada and the JSF - we'll get it, but probably not until 2020 when our Hornets life is over. Maybe in the interim we'll get Super Hornets, who knows?
Pound her demands towards the Hellenic Forces? Perhaps you mean that they'll be able to fly unnoticed over Greek air space which would clearly be in violation of the rules at play in this scenario. If Turkey does do that, it'd be the biggest :nutkick that Greece will have dealt to them.
That might result in war or it could result in something else, who knows?
Regardless of what rationale you put towards the scenario, the idea that these two countries would go to war against each other is somewhat silly. There, I said it...silly.
These are the thoughts of a Canadian who has been stuck in 100 degree heat drinking not Canadian beer but lemon water for the last week.
Attila
So a JSF piloted plane will beat a Viper piloted plane.
Maybe Turkey won't even join the EU - but I think that because they are in the process of doing it that there won't be any type of war between them and Greece. How could that possibly help their PR with the EU?
I say that Turkey would go against Israel because previously weren't they involved in wars against Israel? If I'm wrong on that, then I'm sorry and take it back.
Canada and the JSF - we'll get it, but probably not until 2020 when our Hornets life is over. Maybe in the interim we'll get Super Hornets, who knows?
Pound her demands towards the Hellenic Forces? Perhaps you mean that they'll be able to fly unnoticed over Greek air space which would clearly be in violation of the rules at play in this scenario. If Turkey does do that, it'd be the biggest :nutkick that Greece will have dealt to them.
That might result in war or it could result in something else, who knows?
Regardless of what rationale you put towards the scenario, the idea that these two countries would go to war against each other is somewhat silly. There, I said it...silly.
These are the thoughts of a Canadian who has been stuck in 100 degree heat drinking not Canadian beer but lemon water for the last week.
Attila
- Status