Anzac's actually have a steel superstructure, the Australian examples masts are aluminium. Cheers.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
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There is also the case of USS Stark. An FFG-7, with an aluminium superstructure, hit by two Exocets, which not only survived but was able to limp to Bahrain for repairs. As we were told many times when being taught damage control “the ship is the best lifeboat”.
NZ needs to decide what sort of maritime response it wants and can afford.
Suggest if you want a major combat capability it’s all or nothing.
No compromises
Minimum three ships fully armed from their commissioning.
No more fitted for not with ,or get two and look at third hull down the track nonsense.
If this is beyond NZ so be it ,but make the call and no judgement.
If not the above I can see a navy of five to six good sized 100 m constabulary vessels
Flight deck and hangar with a main gun and some 50 cal plus a good number RHIBs and accommodation spaces
Spend money on additional P8s and long range UAV patrol.
Good to all of the above but it will not happen
Make a decision NZ
Cheers S
Suggest if you want a major combat capability it’s all or nothing.
No compromises
Minimum three ships fully armed from their commissioning.
No more fitted for not with ,or get two and look at third hull down the track nonsense.
If this is beyond NZ so be it ,but make the call and no judgement.
If not the above I can see a navy of five to six good sized 100 m constabulary vessels
Flight deck and hangar with a main gun and some 50 cal plus a good number RHIBs and accommodation spaces
Spend money on additional P8s and long range UAV patrol.
Good to all of the above but it will not happen
Make a decision NZ
Cheers S
New Zealand and Australia strengthen naval partnership through new cooperation plan
The Royal New Zealand Navy and Royal Australian Navy have reinforced their enduring maritime partnership through the signing of Plan Tasman, a framework designed to strengthen cooperation and suppo…
rnzngunners.org
Came across this to me very interesting as both Naval Forces sign Plan Tasman a new framework to bring both Naval Forces closer to Operate together in a complex Indo-Pacific Region.
I seen a post saying our current helicopters will have fly up to 2030 sad you have give Rnzaf their maintenance crews do a outstanding job with old aircraft C-130H and now Naval Helicopters .They should make a few Pollies fly in them seem we only get new aircraft at faster rate when break down and effects them.
NZ Defence Force do a outstanding job with Equipment they have and should be better equipped at faster rate than currently.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Getting a few pollies flying in them might be an excellent path towards getting better ones except replacing the pilots might be difficult.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
It actually "expects" they will remain in service until 2028-2030, which is about right as it will take at least 2-3 years for the first couple to be built and delivered. Earlier Govt briefings state they are to be brought to Cabinet later this year for final sign-off, which suggests the project is still (or now, was) with the MoD project teams.
Make of it what you will but out of curiosity AI search results suggest nothing unusual with the time frames eg Defence is "following a standard multi-step defense acquisition timeline". But I also wonder whether negotiations with the supplier might see an accelerated delivery for a couple of airframes to commence the transition phase (a la ADF receiving helos and aircraft from existing US production lines)? Or whether there is an opportunity to obtain some additional interim capability examples (like how Kaman supplied interim SH-2F's prior to the SH-2G's), such as second-hand/surplus Sikorsky S-70's? If so that could also provide a couple of utility examples for continued use for the Auxiliary/Sealift vessels (which do not require specialised ASW configured Romeos, which can be kept solely for the FFH's).
Could be a chance getting a few of US Production line Greece did exactly that.
The reality is that the pollies have run the NZDF down to such a low ebb over the last 35+ years that it will take a decade or two to restore it to being a defence force that can actually defend anything. The big problems are they are not only missing equipment and capabilities that have been deleted, but the personnel situation is dire. The army has only two fully manned companies remaining, the air force is contracting LME's to do maintenance work on aircraft due to under staffing and the navy has 600 positions that are not filled. Some personnel are being paid 80% of the civilian equivalent. Getting new equipment is very desirable but if you don't have the experienced personnel to use it it is a waste of time.
The time taken to gain the expertise including command experience does not diminish with increased numbers of people being trained, however it does allow you to increase the size of the NZDF more quickly.
Aluminium Hail
Member
Hipkins considering pushing pause on replacing frigates, but defends Five Eyes
Chris Hipkins says a Labour-led Government might not replace the ageing Anzac frigates.
www.nzherald.co.nz
I guess few would be surprised but Labour Party leader Chris Hipkins will not rule out canceling frigate replacements. He appears to suggest HADR capability may be a better use of funds.
What a shame he believes we are not capable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously.
This sort of loopy left policy sounds similar of another labor leader who still think she is running NZ foreign and Defence PolicyHipkins considering pushing pause on replacing frigates, but defends Five Eyes
Chris Hipkins says a Labour-led Government might not replace the ageing Anzac frigates.
I guess few would be surprised but Labour Party leader Chris Hipkins will not rule out canceling frigate replacements. He appears to suggest HADR capability may be a better use of funds.
What a shame he believes we are not capable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously.
That is pretty dumb, and is complete at odds with the labor party (and bipartisan view) in Australia's global outlook. Which often happens, they represent entirely different political animals in different countries.
The global order is collapsing, it is a tangible thing in front of our eyes. If that isn't evident to NZ right now, NZ should send a contingent of politicians to the Gulf, to Poland, to Canada, to Philippines etc. Have the Chinese ships already been forgotten?
Frigates are a must. 270 people for 3 frigates isn't impossible and is in fact less than the current crew of two frigates. The purchase price is a one off, and amortised over 40 years into nearly nothing. Running costs are the true drain of finances. There are options.
I don't think HDAR should be dismissed, its very important, but it clearly a different mission. Flexible OPV and some sort of strategic lift ship should also be in discussion. A replacement for HMNZS Manawanui. It was a useful ship, removing WW2 munitions, HDAR, ceasing 3.2T of cocaine, etc.
This is dumb for suggesting one over the other. They are creating a stupid policy hole where one needs not to exist. I suspect in proper deeper policy formation such ideas will be washed away.
Yes, my bad, I think I was thinking of the FFGs.
My point is that some obsessions with "damage control" seem very outdated and not relevant, and mostly seem to come from Americans assuming anything other than what they are doing is inferior and stupid. Mogami takes a very effective and modern approach, and it is still a very compartmentalised ship, and damage control is a huge part of its design. It just doesn't need a crew of 300-400 sailors to perform it. By having fewer sailors, and those sailors closer to exits, evacuating a ship is more viable, faster, more remote automation etc, and more and better crew tracking makes its much more survivable than trying to hail mary damage control a ship, not to save it, but to stop it sinking too fast no one can get off it. Being able to track exactly where the crew is, and their life signs, means evacuation, damage control is more effective.
Damage control should be about effectiveness not about tradition. Cars have lots of modern safety, active and passive. Airbags, ABS, traction control, ESP, crumple zones, collapsible columns, safety cells. Simply keeping to 1940's or 1950's safety ideas out of tradition, is not good.
Both the Mogami and the Type 31 are modern in that regard. I don't think NZ really has the option of a traditional US style damage control type ship configuration and would be pretty alien for NZ to operate that kind of ship now.
Yep, the pollies have not grasped the reality that the first function of any defence force is to protect the sovereignty of their nation and I would guess that this applies to a significant majority in all our parties. What our pollies have to front up to is the question of how much value should we place on our sovereignty and freedom and realise that without it we have nothing.
Hawkeye69
Member
Also the younger generation are more savvy about pay and conditions and a work/life balance and are more attracted to higher technology careers in the private sector.Hipkins considering pushing pause on replacing frigates, but defends Five Eyes
Chris Hipkins says a Labour-led Government might not replace the ageing Anzac frigates.
I guess few would be surprised but Labour Party leader Chris Hipkins will not rule out canceling frigate replacements. He appears to suggest HADR capability may be a better use of funds.
What a shame he believes we are not capable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously.
[/QUOTE
Personally I think pausing on the frigate replacement is very sensible, the navy went 18 months without an operational frigate in service while been upgraded, both OPV’s out of service for 4 years, 2x inshore patrol boats sold to Ireland and incompteance sank our hydrographic/dive ship and ongoing scrutiny, independant audits, and high-profile legal cases concerning sexual harrassment and misconduct within its ranks, the future of the RNZN without doubt needs a complete review from the top down.
Times have also changed from the Dads Army days and today the changing of national identity similar to global trends among Gen Z, there is a declining inclination to strongly identify with or prioritise traditional military defence of a nation.
There is nothing wrong with pushing pause on possible frigate replacements and reconsidering the future of the navy and its purpose.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Pushing 'pause' on the frigate replacements would effectively be NZ making a decision on future force structure and capability of the RNZN specifically, and the NZDF more broadly as a whole. Further, doing so would make the RNZN effectively irrelevant and potentially cause NZ to become a bit of a liability in terms of defence alliances, a maritime nation unable to patrol it's SLOC, never mind contribute to escorting in further SLOC.
Whilst some within NZ might like the notion on NZ becoming a non-aligned nation with a symbolic as opposed to actual defence force, should such a situation actually occur, NZ would likely find itself entirely shut out of int'l discussions and decisions and instead find that circumstances are being dictated to NZ by others.
One needs to remember that the current frigates have been in commission almost 30 years already, with replacement not planned to take place for nearly a decade. This at a time when the number of frigate designs and the yards to build them internationally is likely to be 'tight' assuming a major conflict does not erupt.
Murse
Member
I mean it's not like they've had 30years to think about the replacement, whats a few more years?
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Realistically, things should have been planned out ahead so that replacement frigates started commissioning so the current frigates could be either decommissioned or transferred to a non-frontline role like that of a training ship.
Given that it can take several years for a new, modern warship to be constructed and then commissioned into service, a deadline by which NZ has to place an order is likely fast approaching, if new frigates are come to online by 2035.