CorvetteCrunch
Member
Decision on submarine procurement is rumored to be coming at the NATO Summit on either July 7th or 8th.
Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates
- Thread starter stephen weist
- Start date
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Dumb timing if SK gets the order. If Germany gets it, understandable. Personally I would be very disappointed if SK doesn’t win. VLT is a plus and delivery will be more reliable. A possible involvement in SK’s SSN is another plus albeit long term.
CorvetteCrunch
Member
South Korea has a delegation at the NATO summit, so it's workable for either party being the winner.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Didn't know that, still think an announcement in Ottawa has better optics though.
Looks like we will get our answer tomorrow from Halifax as to the winner in the submarine contract. Personally hoping for the Hanwha Ocean KSS-111 and an order for 12.
Looks like TKMS:
www.ctvnews.ca
Canada chooses German company to build new submarine fleet: sources
The Canadian government has chosen a German company to build Canada’s new submarine fleet.
www.ctvnews.ca
That's a shame. It's going to put Canada years behind in receiving and training crews for the new subs over where they could have been with the Hanwha bid. Hanwha would have provided the new subs quicker and provided a sub for Canada to train on. Plus it is a proven design already in the water. TKMS not so much.Looks like TKMS:
Canada chooses German company to build new submarine fleet: sources
The Canadian government has chosen a German company to build Canada’s new submarine fleet.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Reportedly Canada is being offered existing production slots, so Canada should be getting four boats by 2036. South Korea at its best was producing a submarine in five years. So it's probably six of one and half a dozen of the other.
CorvetteCrunch
Member
That is apparently the offer, although I am rather skeptical of how it will actually work out in the end. It's one thing to get our four boats, but how will the rest of the fleet be delivered? Norway and Germany will want their boats eventually, and Canada will have to get in line. What kind of timeline is the rest of the fleet on? Definitely delayed given what the Germans and Norwegians are giving up to win the contract. The Germans are setting up another shipyard to handle concurrent production, but that isn't a sure-fire solution when TKMS has an ever expanding production log with more and more foreign clients coming in.
I also have concerns about parts availability and support long term, given prior German issues with these and how large of a support ledger the Germans will have internationally. For better or for worse, Canada is only one customer in a larger fleet of boats compared to the Koreans, where we would be the primary operators even above the Koreans themselves. You have to wonder how much priority we will be provided in the overall queue.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
A disappointing outcome IMHO. SKorea would have put out maximum effort for Canada to enhance other export opportunities. Faster delivery and the boat offered is actually in production. Time will tell if TKMS promises on the 212 are any better than LM promises on the F-35. I suspect to be disappointed.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Yes, but South Korea is also planning on building another six of the KS-III class. So it would have been a similar problem, if not entirely the same. Maybe Germany will open up another production line.
Germany is pumping a huge amount of money into defence spending. With Germany, Norway and Canada all operating the same boats there's plenty of incentive to make lots of spare parts.
I'm not saying the German option was the best, just that it may not be as bad as some people fear.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Considering the Liberal neglect on defence, perhaps the very likely delay on the rest of order from TKMS was considered an advantage.
Totally agree!!!
CorvetteCrunch
Member
I think the last place I want my German submarines to be built is Spain, considering the trainwreck Navantia has proven to be.
CorvetteCrunch
Member
Korea has two shipyards actively producing their design and only one customer, being themselves. The Germans have one shipyard producing boats for a substantial number of customers, with the promise of of another yard coming online sometime in the future to help alleviate this. I don't think the scale of the issue I am speaking on is really similar here.
Is incentive going to translate into action? We are not the only customer here on TKMS's books and unlike the Koreans where we will be the primary customer, we are simply going to be yet another customer in the crowd. Those books are only increasing in size as time goes on, how much priority are we going to get in this ecosystem?
Antipode
Member
Right! That must have flown right over TKMS 's head, give them a call.
PM Carney just announced 4 Type 212CDs would be delivered by 2034. He also said there would be "tranches", with technology and capacity inserts. Type 212CD-E comes to mind for ships 5 to 12.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
....and when exactly for the remainder? Boats 5-12, two or three decades from now if we are lucky.
TKMS is establishing a second manufacturing facility. They have committed to one boat a year after 2036. The 4 boats we are getting by 2034 are from German and Norwegian slots. Presumably that 2-year window is to restore the 4 boats back to Germany and Norway, given they will have two lines each producing one boat per year. TKMS has also offered production of modules to Canada, which will also presumably assist with production.
What train wreck? Australia has three classes of ships from Navantia, and they are very satisfactory vessels. Sure, one of the LHDs and the two AORs had teething problems, but most new products have those. No problems whatsoever with the DDGs in service, and the others are now well beyond the issues they had. I hold no candle for Navantia having worked with them, but they are definitely not a "train wreck".