The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Allow me not to care. You know whats more inimical to the rule of law and democracy ? Wringing your hands and doing nothing while your country goes further and further into a fight against chemical WMD. How are you supposed to capture and prosecute drug smugglers in open waters who can just dump the evidence overboard.

"If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck....its a duck" (not sure if that translates well)

Seriously, if you are driving a cigarette boat with multiple engines, at high speed, at night, with no lights, no fishing gear, along well known drug smuggling paths, you ARE a drug smuggler, or you are so dumb, I am glad a JDAM just removed you from the gene pool.

Call me a cynic if you will.
The problem becomes this, once a government has the ability to conduct extrajudicial killings, all they have to do to kill you without a trial or any kind of due process, is to put you into those circumstances. Want to execute an undesirable? Kidnap them, drop them on a boat with no fishing gear or lights, on a well known drug smuggling path, and then kill them.
 

deyhere

Member
You are waffling and trying to defend the nonsense of your own past statements. You arent doing yourself any favors.

Allow me to generously give you the opportunity to clarify your past statement:

Do you think there are masses (most workers ?) of non-Ukrainian citizens working in Ukrainian war industries IN Ukraine ?

[ ] YES
[ ] NO
[ ] allow me to explain further:
what nonsense don't you understand, you willing to bet against me? you don't know what a bet is? i intentionally use the word BET? if you dont know what bet is, i rest my case
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Allow me not to care. You know whats more inimical to the rule of law and democracy ? Wringing your hands and doing nothing while your country goes further and further into a fight against chemical WMD. How are you supposed to capture and prosecute drug smugglers in open waters who can just dump the evidence overboard.

"If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck....its a duck" (not sure if that translates well)

Seriously, if you are driving a cigarette boat with multiple engines, at high speed, at night, with no lights, no fishing gear, along well known drug smuggling paths, you ARE a drug smuggler, or you are so dumb, I am glad a JDAM just removed you from the gene pool.

Call me a cynic if you will.
Assuming they are 100% drug dealers, the US does not prescribe death sentences to the drug dealers they prosecute in the country. Even the most notorious ones get life, which is usually accompanied by additional charges of various severity. Mules (who these people allegedly are) get few years with a possibility of parole. How does sinking boats in another country or international waters reconcile with that then? I do not think it does.

But, as Feanor had already mentioned, I believe due process is a key.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Delusional narrative:


Reality, a Ukrainian soldier talks to his family for the first time in 5 months, after “dieting” on position (where they cannot use social media), as reported by the Ukrainian (propaganda) outlet United24 two weeks ago (cannot embed the Instagram post):


PS I use the banned in Russia Telegram to communicate with people in both countries. Last time was the day before yesterday, with St Petersburg. Edit: on this note, was told that it was the first time they heard the work of AD in the city a few days ago since the war began (the attack that hit the ship and oil tanks).
 
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rsemmes

Active Member
Whataboutism that once again avoids the central tenet of my response: disarming will lead to takeover.

Whatever Poland did in 1938 is irrelevant to point (once again, since you didnt get it): disarming will lead to RU takeover.

Try answering the following question: do you think that if UKR disarms to the extent the RU demanded in 2022, that this will lead to further RU encroachment into UKR or not.

[ ] YES
[ ] NO
[ ] its more complicated for the reasons I will outline here:

Go ahead. Give it your best shot.
Then your 1938 is irrelevant.
"Will lead to" Is that fortune telling? If you can make current affairs that simple... Congratulations!
There is no agreement, there is no army level. You can use was too. You can also add guaranties and Ukraine's respect for the Minsk accords.
 
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rsemmes

Active Member
What happens in 10 years will be (in my estimate) far past relevant as the conflict will be long over. RU will have given up, UKR will have given in, or Second-Rate Stalin will be dead of old age. Tick-tock, tick-tock.

Lets turn this around - why do you think in 10 years China will suddenly flood RU with free stuff.



RU will collapse ? I didnt say this. In fact, I said just the opposite. To quote myself, in posts 14474:

"So, to summarize - no collapse I can see, just increasing misery for the hostage RU population."



How many hits ? No idea. native Ukrainians could probably answer this better than our guesses.

How many billions ? Europe and NATO can afford it. Im not worried. Europe doesnt seem overly worried either.

End of the world ? What are you going on about ?



Its a loan....hahahahahaha...we both know its not a loan. its a gift, possibly mitigated by future economic ties or resource development.

NATO has "extended a line of credit" for altruism, self-interest, and common good. We could argue about the % breakdown of each, but that would be subjective.
I have to say, you are very good at avoiding the point.
My point:
"Trying to go back to the actual fighting...
You mean now? What if in ten years time China decides that it in its best interest to keep Russia "in the fight"? NATO has been supporting Ukraine for those ten years and Ukraine has been able to find men to fight for ten more years.
Russia will collapse... All right. How many more hits can Ukraine take? How many more billions is NATO providing in how many years? That Ukrainian general was talking of 9 months, not 9 years. Is the end of the world going to happen in those 6-9 months?
Edit.
Why has NATO extended a line of credit to Ukraine? Who said anything about free?"

No mention of "free".
I didn't say that you said "Russia will collapse", that was an introduction for an hypothetical about that Ukrainian general; like his 9 months, my "end of the world".
"Gift" instead of "free". Is Ukraine paying interests?
You can apply your answer to the hypothetical Chinese line of credit.

If you don't want to understand "Trying to go back to the actual fighting" as actually "trying to go back to the actual fighting"...
Edit
Yes, I was using the same post to answer some of your points and for something else, but you probably heard this before... "It's nothing personal".
 
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rsemmes

Active Member
Trying to go back to the actual fighting...

'Volodymyr Zelenskyy and the leaders of the UK, France and Germany discussed “the urgent need to scale up” Ukraine’s air defences...
The leaders condemned Russia’s large-scale missile and drone attacks...
The meeting followed a series of devastating Ukrainian strikes...
The mood in Kyiv is increasingly optimistic...'

I am confused here... or I am reading a Fairy Tale.
Why to scale up AD when the mood is optimistic? Maybe Ukraine needs more SAM and less drones?
They don't condemn Ukraine's strikes killing civilians?
Wait, "large-scale", but not "devastating"?
The lighter Ukrainian strikes against a much bigger nation are "devastating"?
Why is Zelenski's mood optimistic? Is the mood of those +4m Ukrainians out of the country, +300.000 AWOL/deserters and 2m skulkers optimistic too?
Maybe it is optimistic because in 6 months Ukraine will be able to dictate conditions to Russia. How is going to do that?
 

Hoover

Member
rsemmes... boring.

Yes, the AA of Urkaine has to be sclaed up, because the Russians increasing their attacks. So what? Doing nothing isn´t the best way für Ukraine.
The Ukraine has to scale up their attacks on Russia. Yes. Indeed. Why not? Doing nothng is not the best way for Ukraine.
Killing Russian civilians? Yes, it happens, for different reasons. You blame the Ukranians, but not the Russians?

rsemmes, I know that your solution for the Ukraine is surrender the areas Russia demands, and wait for the Russians to take the rest of Ukraine.
But you have to admit that the Ukraine has the right to defend themselves with every help they can get. And Russia is fighting an illegal war against Ukraine.

Maybe it is optimistic because in 6 months Ukraine will be able to dictate conditions to Russia. How is going to do that?
No joking, but there is a chance that Putin has to get into negotiations if the attacks will harm Russia over months.

It is on Putin to end the war. But Putin wants a victory, he is wanting all of Donetzk, that is what he is demanding.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
I don't think Russia is going to collapse, I don't think Russia will collapse; in a a far distant future, China may want to keep Russia "in the fight". I don't think it's going to happen, I think that, at that time, China may consider that its interests will be best served by a continuation of the war in Ukraine.
In the present, I don't think that NATO (I'm calling it "NATO") is in this war for Ukraine, I don't think it is in the best interest of the Ukrainian people.
 

personaldesas

Active Member
what's questionable about this statement, paying the prize to protect EU or NATO?
I’m not sure what counterpoint you’re trying to make here.

what nonsense don't you understand, you willing to bet against me? you don't know what a bet is? i intentionally use the word BET? if you dont know what bet is, i rest my case
Well, you made an absurd claim, got called on it, and are now trying to hide behind semantics. Just concede that you were off there and move on.

Er . . . since when has being able to get commercial data mean that they're having to wait for US official permission for each strike?
My question as well. The article seems to be quite clear about it. This seems to be the provider: https://vantor.com
 
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rsemmes

Active Member
rsemmes... boring.

Yes, the AA of Urkaine has to be sclaed up, because the Russians increasing their attacks. So what? Doing nothing isn´t the best way für Ukraine.
The Ukraine has to scale up their attacks on Russia. Yes. Indeed. Why not? Doing nothng is not the best way for Ukraine.
Killing Russian civilians? Yes, it happens, for different reasons. You blame the Ukranians, but not the Russians?

rsemmes, I know that your solution for the Ukraine is surrender the areas Russia demands, and wait for the Russians to take the rest of Ukraine.
But you have to admit that the Ukraine has the right to defend themselves with every help they can get. And Russia is fighting an illegal war against Ukraine.


No joking, but there is a chance that Putin has to get into negotiations if the attacks will harm Russia over months.

It is on Putin to end the war. But Putin wants a victory, he is wanting all of Donetzk, that is what he is demanding.
Fairy Tale, I started with that.

Doing nothing isn´t the best way für Ukraine. I don't think this is best way for Ukraine.
You blame the Ukranians, but not the Russians? I don't blame anyone, read again.
I know that your solution... How? Have I posted any solution?
....the right to defend themselves ... fighting an illegal war ... I think I read that before, I think we all did. I think we all know about selective reading.
It is on Putin to end the war.
It is on Zelenski to start serious negotiations from the real situation Ukraine is in? The future resources of a devastated country in debt.
 

deyhere

Member
I’m not sure what counterpoint you’re trying to make here.
You said, 'Besides the questionable statement, “Only boots on the ground” is a strange way to dismiss the people paying the highest price in this war'.
was just trying to understand what you meant by paying the highest prize? prize for what, for EU or NATO?
 
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deyhere

Member
Well, you made an absurd claim, got called on it, and are now trying to hide behind semantics. Just concede that you were off there and move on.
No, i didn't, you guys should allow it, ok. i will explain more if it helps.. i still believe that there are foreigners working with Ukrainians and manning some of of their local military industries. it could be skilled labour or some sort of design specialist or even unskilled labour, and am ready to place a bet on it that, if investigated, i might be right. Now, your not sure 100%, that there are no foreigners manning or working in Ukrainian arms industry but your seriously challenging my statement as if your sure for real, that there are no foreigners working in Ukraine.. your so sure right?

Ukraine has a serious corruption problem, it won't be out of place if they have some foreigners working in supervisory roles to make sure everything is not stolen.
Ukraine also have serious man power problems to the extend where they kidnap people from the streets to force mobilise them, it also won't be out of place if they get foreigners to man some of their factories so they can get enough men to send to the front.

if you have a problem understanding a statement then try ask for some clarification before you mention absurd and none sense or any of this kind of words
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
No, i didn't, you guys should allow it, ok. i will explain more if it helps.. i still believe that there are foreigners working with Ukrainians and manning some of of their local military industries. it could be skilled labour or some sort of design specialist or even unskilled labour, and am ready to place a bet on it that, if investigated, i might be right. Now, your not sure 100%, that there are no foreigners manning or working in Ukrainian arms industry but your seriously challenging my statement as if your sure for real, that there are no foreigners working in Ukraine.. your so sure right?

Ukraine has a serious corruption problem, it won't be out of place if they have some foreigners working in supervisory roles to make sure everything is not stolen.
Ukraine also have serious man power problems to the extend where they kidnap people from the streets to force mobilise them, it also won't be out of place if they get foreigners to man some of their factories so they can get enough men to send to the front.

if you have a problem understanding a statement then try ask for some clarification before you mention absurd and none sense or any of this kind of words
You're playing word games. You were clearly implying that it was a substantive staffing of Ukrainian manufacturing with foreign personnel, because Ukrainians would steal it all.
 

Hoover

Member
It is on Zelenski to start serious negotiations from the real situation Ukraine is in?
Putin is not going to change his demands. Zelenskij has altered his terms a lot of times. Putin not. Putin is to start seroius negotiations, isn´t it?
 

deyhere

Member
You're playing word games. You were clearly implying that it was a substantive staffing of Ukrainian manufacturing with foreign personnel, because Ukrainians would steal it all.
I am not playing word games, i mean what i said. i said, i will bet my last that most of these production lines you mention are being manned by westerners, if not Ukrainians will steal all of the money and nothing will be done. now that's what i said. i said i can bet my last for a reason. in the dictionary BET means to risk money or make a prediction on an uncertain outcome, or an agreement where the loser pays the winner based on an outcome of an event. i meant what i said i wasn't looking at causing an argument when i said it.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Putin is not going to change his demands. Zelenskij has altered his terms a lot of times. Putin not. Putin is to start seroius negotiations, isn´t it?
I think we have seen positions shift from both sides. It's a little fuzzy because neither side is telling us exactly what they'll settle for, but it seems that Putin went from demanding the full territories of the 4 regions he declared annexed, to just the rest of Donetsk region. To be fair Russia has almost all of Lugansk region and Kherson/Zaporozhye were always a stretch, but not an impossible stretch. Zelensky's position has shifted more than Putin's because he started out with bigger goals, and is the weaker side. But neither side is able to achieve their original goals, or their shifted goals post '22. Both currently have to compromise, and both are willing to, to some extent. They're still pretty far apart though.

I am not playing word games, i mean what i said. i said, i will bet my last that most of these production lines you mention are being manned by westerners, if not Ukrainians will steal all of the money and nothing will be done. now that's what i said. i said i can bet my last for a reason. in the dictionary BET means to risk money or make a prediction on an uncertain outcome, or an agreement where the loser pays the winner based on an outcome of an event. i meant what i said i wasn't looking at causing an argument when i said it.
Words have meanings but so do idiomatic expressions. "I will bet my last" is an expression intended to convey an extremely high level of confidence in something being the case.
 
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