ADF General discussion thread

[StevoJH]

Seems like also more funding for MR GBAD (AMRAAM ER maybe?) and also funds to replace E7's. Not sure if this is thought to be an E7B or something new altogether.

It would probably have to be a new model number even if pulling through upgraded versions of the current systems.

E7 (and P8) are based on the 737NG, how much longer are Boeing going to keep that in production for military customers?

Presumably would have to be based on the 737-MAX or A320NEO.

 

[MARKMILES77]

IIP 2026 is up…



New VSHORAD missile system for dismounted and vehicle mounted applications and new medium ranged air defence system, that seems to have been allocated to Army rather than RAAF…

That’s about it for new capability…

Maybe this is where talk of possible Mistral production in Australia comes in for the VSHORAD requirement.
Not sure of the options for the new Medium Range System but the budget is significant:

Does the passive missile defence refer to hardened shelters/bunkers?

 

[ADMk2]

Seems like also more funding for MR GBAD (AMRAAM ER maybe?) and also funds to replace E7's. Not sure if this is thought to be an E7B or something new altogether.

If I had to stab wildly in the dark, I’d suggest something akin to Peregrine, but with a more AEW&C focus…

 

[MARKMILES77]

Interesting to note Ghost Bat is going to fire a new missile type.
Likely one in service with Germany since they seem to be interested in Ghost Bat.
That means IRIS-T or Meteor.

 

[ADMk2]

Interesting to note Ghost Bat is going to fire a new missile type.
Likely one in service with Germany since they seem to be interested in Ghost Bat.
That means IRIS-T or Meteor.View attachment 54701

Or ASRAAM, MICA etc.

 

[Milo]

Quite excited to read the full announcement on Thursday but a bit worried about which programs have been "Reprioritised" to help pay for it. Lets hope Land 8113 is safe from cuts. What else could be at risk? Anyone?

C-27 Spartan to be retired-

But one cut has been made public — the retirement of Australia's fleet of 10 C-27 Spartan aircraft, which have primarily been used to move personnel around the Pacific.

They are viewed as too expensive to maintain for the task they are performing and will be replaced by commercial airliners.

Not unexpected if they are retired when the 20 new C-130 Hercules are introduced but sounds like it may happen sooner.

Richard Marles defends US alliance, rules-based order amid push for more self-reliant defence force - ABC News

 

[Milo]

Nothing in the estimates that would suggest additional Boxer or Redback, but quite a bit of money in the estimates for Bushmaster.

Should have contracted Thales to build the Redback and AS-9 Huntsman. Would have 450 Redback and 60 AS-9 on order before you know it.

 

[Todjaeger]

Should have contracted Thales to build the Redback and AS-9 Huntsman. Would have 450 Redback and 60 AS-9 on order before you know it.

I am assuming one is being facetious. Given that the two S. Korean designs are being built in Australia by an Australian subsidiary Hanwha Defence Australia (HDA), I rather doubt the S. Korean parent company would have been willing or really even interested in letting a rival int'l defence conglomerate license the designs for production in Australia.

After all, from a S. Korean perspective this is not necessarily 'just' about winning export orders. It could also be about a S. Korean defence company being able to establish some overseas production capabilities which are outside of easy reach for N. Korean weapons and/or operatives.

 

[spoz]

After all, from a S. Korean perspective this is not necessarily 'just' about winning export orders. It could also be about a S. Korean defence company being able to establish some overseas production capabilities which are outside of easy reach for N. Korean weapons and/or operatives.

Plus reinforcing friendships and alliances; and ensuring that a resurgent Japanese defence industry does not dominate the Pacific. There are many upsides for Korea; and they remain keen to sell equipment around the region, and if necessary donate stuff reaching the end of its life wth them. They want as many inter relationships as possible,

 

[ADMk2]

I am assuming one is being facetious. Given that the two S. Korean designs are being built in Australia by an Australian subsidiary Hanwha Defence Australia (HDA), I rather doubt the S. Korean parent company would have been willing or really even interested in letting a rival int'l defence conglomerate license the designs for production in Australia.

After all, from a S. Korean perspective this is not necessarily 'just' about winning export orders. It could also be about a S. Korean defence company being able to establish some overseas production capabilities which are outside of easy reach for N. Korean weapons and/or operatives.

He is referring to the on-going purchases of Bushmasters without end, even when large parts of that fleet are already parked up for lack of end users…

Another 200x of the vehicles to be purchased reportedly…

They could of course be replacements for older / worn out vehicles, but the point remains. No money for armour, unless it’s made by Thales and then the money seems endless…

 

[south]

He is referring to the on-going purchases of Bushmasters without end, even when large parts of that fleet are already parked up for lack of end users…

Another 200x of the vehicles to be purchased reportedly…

They could of course be replacements for older / worn out vehicles, but the point remains. No money for armour, unless it’s made by Thales and then the money seems endless…

There is so much pork-barreling going on. Anyone who doesn’t think that the selection of platform X to be built in location Y does not have political undertones is naive.

it’s just lucky that sometimes the ADF is fortunate and it’s actually the correct platform to deliver the effect..

 

[Todjaeger]

He is referring to the on-going purchases of Bushmasters without end, even when large parts of that fleet are already parked up for lack of end users…

Another 200x of the vehicles to be purchased reportedly…

They could of course be replacements for older / worn out vehicles, but the point remains. No money for armour, unless it’s made by Thales and then the money seems endless…

I understood the reference to the Porkbarrelmasters, my comment was more about how likely S.Korean defence companies trying to 'break' into the Australian market would be ok with turning their designs/specs over to an Australian subsidiary of a Euro defence company.

 

[SammyC]

I understood the reference to the Porkbarrelmasters, my comment was more about how likely S.Korean defence companies trying to 'break' into the Australian market would be ok with turning their designs/specs over to an Australian subsidiary of a Euro defence company.

My take out of this is that the government, once a factory has started, is not going to close it down. The political damage is to significant.

What does this mean when we finish the current redback and boxer orders. If I were Hanwa or Rheinemetall I would be looking at these signals positively.

 

[Todjaeger]

My take out of this is that the government, once a factory has started, is not going to close it down. The polotocal damage is to significant.

What does this mean when we finish the current redback and boxer orders. If I were Hanwa or Rheinemetall I would be looking at these signals positively.

Given what has happened with Australian naval construction... I am somewhat less optimistic about this.

 

[Morgo]

I understood the reference to the Porkbarrelmasters, my comment was more about how likely S.Korean defence companies trying to 'break' into the Australian market would be ok with turning their designs/specs over to an Australian subsidiary of a Euro defence company.

I assumed that these were replacements for ones we'd gifted to Ukraine? In which case I am all for it.

 

[SammyC]

He is referring to the on-going purchases of Bushmasters without end, even when large parts of that fleet are already parked up for lack of end users…

Another 200x of the vehicles to be purchased reportedly…

They could of course be replacements for older / worn out vehicles, but the point remains. No money for armour, unless it’s made by Thales and then the money seems endless…

Well there is $2-3 billion unapproved planned investment allocated to "Bushmaster protected mobility vehicle medium". That kind of money is more than 200 new vehicles. That would be the replacement of most of the fleet.

Also in the same table (page 65) is $7-10 billion for "combat vehicle systems". The combat engineers get another $2-3 billion. There does not seem to be any reference to these in the text. Whay are these??

 

[SammyC]

Maybe this is where talk of possible Mistral production in Australia comes in for the VSHORAD requirement.
Not sure of the options for the new Medium Range System but the budget is significant:
View attachment 54700
Does the passive missile defence refer to hardened shelters/bunkers?

View attachment 54702

The way I read the table is that the "active missile defence" includes investments from everything from VSHORAD up. So $7-10 billion for everything.

I also noted the wording for NASAMS says ".. the first two batteries now in service...". Given that that I thought we only purchased two batteries, this indicates more might be procured. Perhaps I'm reading to much between the lines.

The wording was also very specific for a "medium range" ground based air defence system. The wording is a bit obtuse. I assume it excludes high end ballistic missile defence, so its not arrow or thaad. But it could be AMRAAM-ER or patriot or both.

Given the problems with patriot availability (and excessive reliance on the Americans), I'm wondering if something like the Japanese new type 03 kai series, which supposedly has a terminal phase ballistic and hypersonic capability might be considered. The Koreans have some interesting air defence missile systems as well.

I can imagine the government would want to commonalise fire control systems and radars, so I wonder if Japan and Korea would let their missiles be integrated with our Kongsberg panel and CEA radars. Could be interesting.

So, if I put some pieces together, a program could be something like

• Mistral 3 mounted and dismounted systems. Romania bought 300 missile packages for about $1 billion. Sets up Nioa.
• An additional 2 NASAMS batteries. Another $2 billion. Keeps the South Australian factory open.
• Upgrade NASAMS to AMRAAM ER (border line medium range system in its own right)
• The rest on patriot, or a Japanese or Korean proper medium range system. $5-7 billion buys somewhere between 2-4 batteries.

 

[spoz]

There is so much pork-barreling going on. Anyone who doesn’t think that the selection of platform X to be built in location Y does not have political undertones is naive.

it’s just lucky that sometimes the ADF is fortunate and it’s actually the correct platform to deliver the effect..

Only reason they are going to try to build frigates in the West. Only reason why Austal, who builds aluminium and small steel patrol boats, is suddenly a “strategic partner” for shipbuilding.

 

[knightrider4]

The way I read the table is that the "active missile defence" includes investments from everything from VSHORAD up. So $7-10 billion for everything.

I also noted the wording for NASAMS says ".. the first two batteries now in service...". Given that that I thought we only purchased two batteries, this indicates more might be procured. Perhaps I'm reading to much between the lines.

The wording was also very specific for a "medium range" ground based air defence system. The wording is a bit obtuse. I assume it excludes high end ballistic missile defence, so its not arrow or thaad. But it could be AMRAAM-ER or patriot or both.

Given the problems with patriot availability (and excessive reliance on the Americans), I'm wondering if something like the Japanese new type 03 kai series, which supposedly has a terminal phase ballistic and hypersonic capability might be considered. The Koreans have some interesting air defence missile systems as well.

I can imagine the government would want to commonalise fire control systems and radars, so I wonder if Japan and Korea would let their missiles be integrated with our Kongsberg panel and CEA radars. Could be interesting.

So, if I put some pieces together, a program could be something like

• Mistral 3 mounted and dismounted systems. Romania bought 300 missile packages for about $1 billion. Sets up Nioa.
• An additional 2 NASAMS batteries. Another $2 billion. Keeps the South Australian factory open.
• Upgrade NASAMS to AMRAAM ER (border line medium range system in its own right)
• The rest on patriot, or a Japanese or Korean proper medium range system. $5-7 billion buys somewhere between 2-4 batteries.

I remember reading somewhere and I can’t remember where that Israel’s David’s Sling/Raytheon Stunner Missile was being considered at one stage.

 

[Tbone]

The logical and fastest way to genuine medium range missile defence is more NASAM batteries paired with skyceptor missiles with a range of 200km and able to take down medium ballistic missiles. Army already knows how to use them and built in Australia. No brainer!