Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[SammyC]

Does the ADF have satellites covering the northern approach choke points watching all transiting seaborne traffic?

To the best of my knowledge Australia does not have any recon capable satellites of its own. It relies on Allied satellites, primarily US assets for this capability. If we want these areas surveyed we need to ask for it. Thankfully I suspect these are regions the US regularly looks at as it monitors the Chinese fleet closely.

Otherwise we use Tritons and P8s to monitor sea traffic around our coast.

Australian Defence doesn't even have its own comms satellites.

 

[Catalina]

To the best of my knowledge Australia does not have any recon capable satellites of its own. It relies on Allied satellites, primarily US assets for this capability. If we want these areas surveyed we need to ask for it. Thankfully I suspect these are regions the US regularly looks at as it monitors the Chinese fleet closely.

Otherwise we use Tritons and P8s to monitor sea traffic around our coast.

Australian Defence doesn't even have its own comms satellites.

Thanks for your reply Sammy.

That was my understanding too.

Seems slightly weird with the ADFs recent buy up of billions not to purchase military satellites, afterall even the NZG has been talking of purchasing satellites for the NZDF.

We could launch yours from Rocket Lab's New Zealand launch sites at Launch Complex 1 on the Māhia Peninsula, on the East Coast of the North Island...

 

[Reptilia]

I have an update in relation to HMAS Supply. She was supposed to sail last Wednesday but she had engine trouble with a fuel issue. Apparently they are working all weekend to rectify the defect and they are aiming to sale next Tuesday.

Update on HMAS Stalwart?

 

[spoz]

Does the ADF have satellites covering the northern approach choke points watching all transiting seaborne traffic?

That is, after all, the purpose of JORN. There are other surveillance methods available.

 

[AndyinOz]

It's definitely a nice capability to have I think though for the moment Electron, Rocket Labs current vehicle has a lift capacity of about 300kg to LEO(low Earth orbit) which might be restrictive. That being said they have done launches apparently for the US's NRO of what though who knows. From what I gather it's next vehicle Neutron (I'm a space and science nerd in my spare time so I love the naming scheme at the moment) apparently will have a payload to orbit capacity of 13,000kg though I think launches of Neutron will happen at least at first from Virginia. 13 metric tonnes is a lot of satellite for sure though.

 

[seaspear]

Thanks for your reply Sammy.

That was my understanding too.

Seems slightly weird with the ADFs recent buy up of billions not to purchase military satellites, afterall even the NZG has been talking of purchasing satellites for the NZDF.

We could launch yours from Rocket Lab's New Zealand launch sites at Launch Complex 1 on the Māhia Peninsula, on the East Coast of the North Island...

there seems to be some some changing of heart on satellite capability or Australian satellites

Australia resurrects scrapped SATCOM project - Asian Military Review

On 26 June 2025, Australia issued a RfI encompassing a sovereign satellite communications (SATCOM) capability under the project name SPA9102

www.asianmilitaryreview.com

 

[Pusser01]

Update on HMAS Stalwart?

She has been conducting sea trials over the last week after just completing a maintenance period at Stirling.

 

[Reptilia]

Anyone know how long HMAS Hobart will be out of action?

 

[iambuzzard]

This is a question from someone with no military background, namely me.
I know ship building now is a highly complex process these days and there is likely no modern day equivalent to the Bathurst Class corvette..
Is it possible to design a small vessel similar to Arafura size purely for coastal defence with some ASW capability? It would not need high end AAW, just portable equipment, and only a small gun. Arafura is a constabulary vessel, but we need some form of last layer defence for our ports against submarine incursion. Seabed sensors at the approaches to our ports would be a necessary part of this. I know these are silly questions but I defer to your expertise on this.
Cheers,
Buzzard.

 

[Volkodav]

This is a question from someone with no military background, namely me.
I know ship building now is a highly complex process these days and there is likely no modern day equivalent to the Bathurst Class corvette..
Is it possible to design a small vessel similar to Arafura size purely for coastal defence with some ASW capability? It would not need high end AAW, just portable equipment, and only a small gun. Arafura is a constabulary vessel, but we need some form of last layer defence for our ports against submarine incursion. Seabed sensors at the approaches to our ports would be a necessary part of this. I know these are silly questions but I defer to your expertise on this.
Cheers,
Buzzard.

Look at it this way, the mogami is a modern day sloop, a general purpose, multi role escort, a corvette is a smaller, cheaper, easier to build, less capable sloop.

A modern day corvette would be an opv based design at the low end and a MEKO type design at the high end.

Had more infrastructure, time and money been available, there wouldn't have been any Bathurst class corvettes or river/bay class frigates in the RAN, they would simply have built many more Grimsby Class sloops and followed them with Blackswans.

 

[Todjaeger]

This is a question from someone with no military background, namely me.
I know ship building now is a highly complex process these days and there is likely no modern day equivalent to the Bathurst Class corvette..
Is it possible to design a small vessel similar to Arafura size purely for coastal defence with some ASW capability? It would not need high end AAW, just portable equipment, and only a small gun. Arafura is a constabulary vessel, but we need some form of last layer defence for our ports against submarine incursion. Seabed sensors at the approaches to our ports would be a necessary part of this. I know these are silly questions but I defer to your expertise on this.
Cheers,
Buzzard.

If (big IF) I understand what it is you are trying to find out, I think you are approaching the question from the wrong direction. You seem to want to know if something could be made that is roughly the size of an Arafura-class OPV, but design for ASW ops in/around Australian waters. Presumably the interest in vessels that size has to due with the notion that Australia could possibly build them quickly and easily, possibly including components sourced from within Australia only.

If my understand is correct, then IMO this seems to be the wrong approach because it is making automatic assumptions about a platform, vs. a capability. Sure, Australia could design and build an OPV/FS-sized warship which will be tasked with ASW ops in/around Australia, but that does not mean such vessels would be effective at ASW ops, or quick/cheap/easy to build. The kit needed to make ASW ops work well is expensive and complex, and the features an ASW vessel needs to have to make it more effective at ASW are expensive to fit.

TBH what might work better would be for some of the Australian fishing vessel designs to be looked at with an eye towards having them quieted and fitted with a variety of sonar arrays and then the appropriate comms to relay contact data to an ADF asset for response.

Otherwise, I would recommend shore-based establishments monitoring SOSUS near/around Australian SLOC chokepoints and areas of port/shipping activities, backed with up an increase in the number of fixed wing MPA aircraft and shore-based naval helicopter detachments.

 

[Reptilia]

This is a question from someone with no military background, namely me.
I know ship building now is a highly complex process these days and there is likely no modern day equivalent to the Bathurst Class corvette..
Is it possible to design a small vessel similar to Arafura size purely for coastal defence with some ASW capability? It would not need high end AAW, just portable equipment, and only a small gun. Arafura is a constabulary vessel, but we need some form of last layer defence for our ports against submarine incursion. Seabed sensors at the approaches to our ports would be a necessary part of this. I know these are silly questions but I defer to your expertise on this.
Cheers,
Buzzard.

It’s possible we may see new more capable PBs/OPVs from 2032 after the Border Force order of 11. These would start to replace the Cape class which have a service life of 20 years.
RAN could receive new PBs or OPVs and existing Evolved Capes could be transferred to ABF.

Minor vessel numbers
This year
(21)>2025 - 10 Cape class, 9 Evolved Cape class, 2 Arafura class
Future
(37)>2032 - 10 Cape class, 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
> Potentially more Evolved Capes or a new Patrol boat/OPV build.
(36)>2033 - 9 Cape class, 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(33)>2034 - 6 Cape class, 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(29)>2035 - 2 Cape class, 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(29)>2036 - 2 Cape class, 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(27)>2037 - 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(27)>2038 - 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(27)>2039 - 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(27)>2040 - 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(27)>2041 - 21 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class
(24)>2042 - 18 Evolved Cape class, 6 Arafura class

 

[SammyC]

This is a question from someone with no military background, namely me.
I know ship building now is a highly complex process these days and there is likely no modern day equivalent to the Bathurst Class corvette..
Is it possible to design a small vessel similar to Arafura size purely for coastal defence with some ASW capability? It would not need high end AAW, just portable equipment, and only a small gun. Arafura is a constabulary vessel, but we need some form of last layer defence for our ports against submarine incursion. Seabed sensors at the approaches to our ports would be a necessary part of this. I know these are silly questions but I defer to your expertise on this.
Cheers,
Buzzard.

I think it is a good question. I would see this as increasingly becomming a drone function rather than a crewed vessel operation. I think it is very different to search and rescue and constabulary duties, which require people. ISR can be done remotely and autonomously.

Like yourself I would be looking at a broader roll-out of fixed underwater sensors (which is in the IIP) as the starting point. These can be an outer layer through the pacific islands as well as a close in system through our northern passageways.

Ghost Shark style under water drones seem ideal for this kind of function, providing a roving capability. It is big enough for a capable modern passive/active array system and even I would view a lightweight torpedo or two. They have slow speed but long loiter times, ideal for working off the coast. The current prototype supposedly has a 10 day at 5kt range (so in the order of 2,000km without refuelling). I'm sure an enlarged fuel tank could give it a 20-30 day capability relatively easily.

The Americans seem to be prioritising a version of their unmanned surface vessels that can fit a containerised towed sonar to complement submersible drones. Also an easy item to fit into the picture.

Add that to P8 surveys with deployable sonobouys (that last about half a day) and we would have a very good ASW ISR capability all around our coast line.

I don't think that a crewed surface ship short of a proper ASW frigate would be of further benefit in that context.

I should also note that high quality detection equipment like planned for the Hunter is as Tod states above, expensive. And you can't make a drone the equivalent of a Hunter in capability. I think however this can be ballanced by the "lots of and layered" approach. If we had dozens of Ghost Sharks, long sea floor arrays, several surface drones with towed sensors and regular aerial patrols, then we could create a very effective anti subsurface barrier.

I should note that Australia has a large continental shelf extending upwards of 600km off our coast. The vast majority of that is comparatively shallow (less than 200m) meaning that any substantial surface threat can not hide at depth. Big nuclear submarines do not like this environment and are at a natural disadvantage.

I should lastly note that a crewed submarine rarely uses active sonar as it gives away its own location. A drone like a Ghost Bat or a surface towed array however would have far less concern with detection, so could merrily ping away. This gives the defending force a further advantage.

The whales might get a bit upset however.

 

[iambuzzard]

If (big IF) I understand what it is you are trying to find out, I think you are approaching the question from the wrong direction. You seem to want to know if something could be made that is roughly the size of an Arafura-class OPV, but design for ASW ops in/around Australian waters. Presumably the interest in vessels that size has to due with the notion that Australia could possibly build them quickly and easily, possibly including components sourced from within Australia only.

If my understand is correct, then IMO this seems to be the wrong approach because it is making automatic assumptions about a platform, vs. a capability. Sure, Australia could design and build an OPV/FS-sized warship which will be tasked with ASW ops in/around Australia, but that does not mean such vessels would be effective at ASW ops, or quick/cheap/easy to build. The kit needed to make ASW ops work well is expensive and complex, and the features an ASW vessel needs to have to make it more effective at ASW are expensive to fit.

TBH what might work better would be for some of the Australian fishing vessel designs to be looked at with an eye towards having them quieted and fitted with a variety of sonar arrays and then the appropriate comms to relay contact data to an ADF asset for response.

Otherwise, I would recommend shore-based establishments monitoring SOSUS near/around Australian SLOC chokepoints and areas of port/shipping activities, backed with up an increase in the number of fixed wing MPA aircraft and shore-based naval helicopter detachments.

Thanks guys. I just wanted to know what options we had to create that inner layer of last resort.

 

[Todjaeger]

Thanks guys. I just wanted to know what options we had to create that inner layer of last resort.

TBH I approach the issue with the prospective of it being a two part problem. The first is finding the gits, with the second part then being able to do something to them.

There are a whole pile of potential detection options and capabilities which Australia could potentially bring to bear, to monitor the waters around and approaching Australia for unknown sub contacts. It becomes a question of which options Australia can/will pay for and which would likely work best for the given situation.

Me being me, given that the ports themselves are not moving anyway, I would much prefer that Australia make greater use of SOSUS capabilities around/near ports and chokepoints where practical. My reasoning behind this is that a SOSUS is a effectively a stationary, passive detection system whose sonar contact information can be collected and relayed to a land-based contact data fusion centre which would most likely not have the space or power budget restrictions that a vessel or aircraft would have. Being stationary, the SOSUS itself should have minimal self-radiated noise to interfere with what the underwater microphones pick up, whilst the data fusion centre should be able to collect and compare aerial, surface, AIS and underwater contact data to give a better chance of determining which underwater noises are artificial and where their origins are.

Having a detection asset which has to move either on or under the water could end up generating noise which radiates into the water, which could negatively impact any detection kit being used. This is part of the expenses with the Hunter-class frigates, getting the design to be one where there is minimal interference from the ship itself with any sub-hunting.

It also might be possible to use more aerial or even space-based sensing systems, looking for possible wakes left by a passing sub, or perhaps chemicals from the exhaust of a lurking/snorting diesel.

Where things might a bit trickier is if Australia decides that hostile subs need to be detected and/or dealt with well away from Australia and outside home waters or even the EEZ. At a greater distance, then Australia would likely need assets which can bring the sensors to an area to monitor and then bring them back. OTOH, at least within the EEZ itself, it might be possible to have something like an oil platform positioned with an SOSUS connected to it, but that would likely still have to be within the EEZ itself.

 

[Bob53]

If (big IF) I understand what it is you are trying to find out, I think you are approaching the question from the wrong direction. You seem to want to know if something could be made that is roughly the size of an Arafura-class OPV, but design for ASW ops in/around Australian waters. Presumably the interest in vessels that size has to due with the notion that Australia could possibly build them quickly and easily, possibly including components sourced from within Australia only.

If my understand is correct, then IMO this seems to be the wrong approach because it is making automatic assumptions about a platform, vs. a capability. Sure, Australia could design and build an OPV/FS-sized warship which will be tasked with ASW ops in/around Australia, but that does not mean such vessels would be effective at ASW ops, or quick/cheap/easy to build. The kit needed to make ASW ops work well is expensive and complex, and the features an ASW vessel needs to have to make it more effective at ASW are expensive to fit.

TBH what might work better would be for some of the Australian fishing vessel designs to be looked at with an eye towards having them quieted and fitted with a variety of sonar arrays and then the appropriate comms to relay contact data to an ADF asset for response.

Otherwise, I would recommend shore-based establishments monitoring SOSUS near/around Australian SLOC chokepoints and areas of port/shipping activities, backed with up an increase in the number of fixed wing MPA aircraft and shore-based naval helicopter detachments.

On that point does Australia have SOSUS In its sea lanes?

 

[ADMk2]

To the best of my knowledge Australia does not have any recon capable satellites of its own. It relies on Allied satellites, primarily US assets for this capability. If we want these areas surveyed we need to ask for it. Thankfully I suspect these are regions the US regularly looks at as it monitors the Chinese fleet closely.

Otherwise we use Tritons and P8s to monitor sea traffic around our coast.

Australian Defence doesn't even have its own comms satellites.

Optus C1 would like a quick word…

https://www.optus.com.au/living-network/satellite/fleet/c1

 

[ADMk2]

Thanks for your reply Sammy.

That was my understanding too.

Seems slightly weird with the ADFs recent buy up of billions not to purchase military satellites, afterall even the NZG has been talking of purchasing satellites for the NZDF.

We could launch yours from Rocket Lab's New Zealand launch sites at Launch Complex 1 on the Māhia Peninsula, on the East Coast of the North Island...

I’d be cautious on venturing an opinion on this point. Not every capability we buy is discussed openly…

 

[StevoJH]

On that point does Australia have SOSUS In its sea lanes?

I’m sure quite a few state actors would love to know the answer to that question.

Unless there has been something announced publicly by defense or in parliament, anyone who knows the answer to that question would be unable to answer.

 

[SammyC]

Optus C1 would like a quick word…

https://www.optus.com.au/living-network/satellite/fleet/c1

I'm pretty sure its fully foreign owned by Singtel.