The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
With the inability to export oil through European pipelines, Russia is forced to use tankers.
Druzhba pipeline operates today as it was (with interruptions caused by the Ukrainian strikes). There are no other oil pipelines connecting Russia and Europe. Most of the oil to Europe (or elsewhere) was always shipped via sea. I’d check your sources.

But they may be rejoicing that cost for others are increasing, while increasing costs for themselves is seen as the price to pay for victory.
It’s just supply and demand.

It does somewhat imply though that western companies may have sold not only “rust-buckets” to Russia for their “shadow fleet”.


The term participation is nice and vague and the idea of sitting in the gap between neutrality and active participation is nothing new, just look at Soviet military advisers in Africa. Or US military advisers in Vietnam. As it stands it seems to me that the US is involved as a patron through a proxy rather than directly. I think it's meaningful to distinguish advisers, support, planning, logistics, and even the occasional black op, from a full on involvement. Russia certainly does. Russia hasn't fired Oreshnik missiles at US facilities in Europe that are supporting Ukraine.
I don’t disagree with that, generally. However, that can also be argued. The gap here is between active participation and full on involvement, to use your wording. The strike doesn’t happen simply because the calculations are not there. In other words, while the United States feels they can have Ukrainians pushing buttons to strike “points of interest” on the (actual) Russian territory, Russia feels it cannot strike the rec centre in Germany hosting Cavoli and other top rank. Put yet otherwise, the general perception of the degree of involvement here is dictated by one side because the other side thinks that an appropriate response (which really is an Oreshnik strike somewhere in Europe) would be detrimental to its own wellbeing; in other circumstances, for example, a much lower degree of involvement could cause the involved state to stop functioning or disappear entirely. The strong will do what the weak will tolerate. Consequently, the perception of the degree of involvement is also accepted by the other side and its lack of response (sabotage, aka actual proxy war, aside). Perhaps, an illustration of a nuclear deterrent failing, while a conventional deterrent being intact.

At the end of the day, the United States hasn’t been in war for many decades, since the war with Japan, some argue.


Russia hit a gathering of Ukrainian military personnel in Sumy, at a local state university. Reportedly it was an awards ceremony for the 117th TerDef Bde. Significant collateral damage is reported. We also have at least one pickup with a Ukrainian army tactical marking on it lending credence to the reports.
IMG_9458.jpeg


A take on the new accusations by Ukraine regarding Chinese supply of artillery to Russia and manufacturing of weapons on the Russian territory:

IMG_9472.jpeg

I think it misses the point because a) Ukraine is not a player here and b) the US doesn’t care about Ukraine (related to a)) and even sees it as an obstacle to their current interests.


Rubio suggests that the US may abandon Ukraine

The United States will walk away from efforts to broker a Russia-Ukraine peace deal unless there are clear signs of progress soon, U.S. President Donald Trump and Secretary of State Marco Rubio said on Friday.

"Quickly, we want to get it done," Trump told reporters at the White House. "Now if for some reason one of the two parties makes it very difficult, we're just going to say, 'you're foolish, you're fools, you're horrible people, and we're going to just take a pass. But hopefully we won't have to do that."

Trump's comments followed remarks by Rubio, his top diplomat, who said the sides had just days to show progress or Washington would walk.

"We're not going to continue with this endeavour for weeks and months on end. So we need to determine very quickly now, and I'm talking about a matter of days, whether or not this is doable in the next few weeks," Rubio said in Paris after meeting European and Ukrainian leaders.

"If it's not possible, if we're so far apart that this is not going to happen, then I think the president is probably at a point where he's going to say, 'well, we're done'."



Also relevant to the context:

IMG_9473.jpeg


A good discussion of the war in Ukraine in light of the NYT article discussed a few days/weeks ago (The Secret History of the War in Ukraine). The discussion took place at the Munk School of Global Affairs (Toronto, Canada). Definitely worth your time, in my opinion.




The US and Ukraine signed a “memorandum of intent” on the mineral deal (lol). Understandably, Ukraine is stretching it to as long as possible, making sure the military assistance (approved by the Biden administration) keeps dripping. I wonder what is going to happen next though, after the US stops that assistance, intel sharing, etc.

While Bessent says the deal will be signed by April 26, the Ukrainians say that there is further discussion to take place and signing “shortly after”. Both sides are playing the current administration for the fools they are. There are also contradicting reports from the two sides regarding the deal itself: Americans say that the deal is largely the same as it was before, while Ukrainians insist that they negotiated better terms. I guess the two are not mutually exclusive since the “better terms” could be rather marginal, but the second variation of the deal previously reported was definitely worse (for Ukraine) than the first. I guess we will see. My guess is nothing will happen, especially if Rubio is right and Ukraine will be abandoned before April 26.

Bessent later clarified, however, that details were still being finalised, with the aim of signing by April 26, next Saturday.

He added the deal was substantially the same as one previously negotiated, where Zelenskyy and Trump had not signed a memorandum of understanding. Ukrainian officials, however, said they have managed to bring the agreement more in line with their preferences.

Ukrainian officials familiar with the matter said the sides were expected only to report progress by April 26, after Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal’s visit to Washington, with the goal of concluding discussions and signing shortly thereafter.


Source (paywall):

 

Fredled

Active Member
Russian Spring Offensive

Several Ukrainian sources talk about massive mechanised attacks by the Russians in several sectors: Sumy, Kramatorsk and the biggest one near the middle of the road between Pokrovsk and Toresk.
At the same time Ukrinform posted abnormally high number of destroyed IFVs/APCs, artillery pieces, other vehicles and "special equipment", while the number of destroyed tanks and other items are as usual.
(I intentionally don't post any link which are considered unreliable. So I won't post any)
It's a radical change in Russian tactic from what we used to see during the winter. It's possible that we are seeing a Russian "Spring Offensive".

Peace Deal

Marc Rubio said:
We're not going to continue with this endeavour for weeks and months on end. So we need to determine very quickly now, and I'm talking about a matter of days, whether or not this is doable in the next few weeks,
US will abandon Ukraine peace push if no progress soon (Reuters)

Trump confirms. (CNN)

It's possibly a turning point where Trump and his team may make a U turn in their policy toward Ukraine. As always with Trump, we don't know which direction this U turn will take. Usualy it's 180 degrees turning in the opposite direction. Except that here, 180 degrees may not be an opposite direction but to one side or another. To the Ukrainian side or to the Russian side. The fact is that Trump is able to change his mind.

IMO they start to understand that they have no influence on the Russians, and that their inflence on Ukraine is only proportional to the military aid they provide, which is quite frustrating.
It's not obvious to me to whom this message is directed: To Putin, to Zelensky or both. Trump said during his conference with Italian PM Meloni that he didn't take Zelensky accountable for the war, thought he wasn't exactly thrilled with the fact that a war started[sic] . That's an important change of attitude since the brawl in the Oval Office.
Ukrainians and Americans, once again, said that the Mineral deal could be signed next week. It's been months that they are saying that, but it indicates optimism with the Ukrainian side nonetheless.

In all logic, Trump should be rather disgruntled by Putin.
But does Trump think logically? That would be something new...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russian Spring Offensive

Several Ukrainian sources talk about massive mechanised attacks by the Russians in several sectors: Sumy, Kramatorsk and the biggest one near the middle of the road between Pokrovsk and Toresk.
At the same time Ukrinform posted abnormally high number of destroyed IFVs/APCs, artillery pieces, other vehicles and "special equipment", while the number of destroyed tanks and other items are as usual.
(I intentionally don't post any link which are considered unreliable. So I won't post any)
It's a radical change in Russian tactic from what we used to see during the winter. It's possible that we are seeing a Russian "Spring Offensive".
Beyond Ukrinform, are there any other sources to show a radical change in tactics? I don't see any of the usual sources confirming this. On the offensive north of Avdeevka between Pokrovsk and Toretsk, I'm not sold it's the major offensive. Russia has before used the "attack where they least expect it" approach to try and gain ground. But they also resumed the push in the Yelizavetovka-Mirolyubovka area right after. Which makes me wonder if the intent was to draw off some forces before trying for the eastern side for Mirnograd. I can certainly see the potential for pushing northward until they end up west of Konstantinovka, north-east of Mirnograd, and threaten both the Pokrovsk and Konstantinovka areas with encirclement. But it's quite a push. Their recent successes barely lay the groundwork for the whole thing. And they have a geographical obstacle in the form of the low ground north, near the Kleban Byk area. It can be done but it will be a big push that will take some time. Weeks not days. Maybe months. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia doesn't have a single master plan. Instead, they will push anywhere they think it will work, and exploit the location where they have the most success. This is in line with what I know about Soviet and Russian military thought. Find the weak point, and then exploit it. if Ukrainian lines continue to buckle west of Toretsk, they will happily push there. If not, they will try elsewhere.

I think Russia will definitely attack. But I don't necessarily think it will be some separate new offensive. Rather I think we already know where they're pushing. They're going to continue efforts around Kupyansk. They're going to continue across the Zherebets north of Krasniy Liman, possibly pushing to the Oskol for another salient. They're going to keep going in the Seversk salient, Chasov Yar, and Toretsk. They're going to try north of Avdeevka, around Pokrovsk, west into Dnepropetrovsk, north-west out of Velikaya Novoselka, and they're trying for Toretsk. Wherever they have results they will likely double down and push harder.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
Beyond Ukrinform, are there any other sources to show a radical change in tactics?
There are a few pro-Ukrainian videos on YouTube, but these source are worse than Ukrinform for their reliability... In fact Ukrinform doesn't publish much details about military operations, even when they have some success. Sometimes they post anecdotal reports like "the x-th company captured three Russian soldiers." but nothing really relevant. Ukrinform gives details about diplomacy, economy, ceremonies, civilian casualties, weaponry development, cooperation etc... but very little about what happens on the front line.

It's not a radical change in the Russian's tactic, in the sens that they don't do anything new. Yet short term, it's a radical change because during the winter and already before, we grew used to micro attacks by two or three men on foot at a time. In larger attacks, the Russians used to drop their troops off their APCs some 5 to 10km away to preserve the vehicles. If an armoured vehicle was directly engaged it was one or two.
Now, according to these sources, there have been attacks with 5, 10, 20 and more armoured vehicles and tanks, in several directions.

About their strategy, why they attack there and not elsewhere, I agree with the theory that they attack the weakest spots. Above all, Pokrovsk is still their top priority. 45% of the fighting happens there according to Ukrinform. Followed by Sumy, Toresk, Kupiansk and, more recently, Zaporyzhia. The towns close to the front are their priorities but they keep attacking a little bit everywhere. If, apparently, they don't have a clear strategy, it's because any square meter of territory is good to take.

Feanor said:
Russia hit a gathering of Ukrainian military personnel in Sumy, at a local state university. Reportedly it was an awards ceremony for the 117th TerDef Bde. Significant collateral damage is reported. We also have at least one pickup with a Ukrainian army tactical marking on it lending credence to the reports.
There is a sens of deja vu.

It's difficult to check the facts from independant sources. I haven't read or heard of a general being fired for organising a gathering anywhere. Anyway, no matter the target, no matter what the Russians are saying, it's a war crime.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are a few pro-Ukrainian videos on YouTube, but these source are worse than Ukrinform for their reliability... In fact Ukrinform doesn't publish much details about military operations, even when they have some success. Sometimes they post anecdotal reports like "the x-th company captured three Russian soldiers." but nothing really relevant. Ukrinform gives details about diplomacy, economy, ceremonies, civilian casualties, weaponry development, cooperation etc... but very little about what happens on the front line.

It's not a radical change in the Russian's tactic, in the sens that they don't do anything new. Yet short term, it's a radical change because during the winter and already before, we grew used to micro attacks by two or three men on foot at a time. In larger attacks, the Russians used to drop their troops off their APCs some 5 to 10km away to preserve the vehicles. If an armoured vehicle was directly engaged it was one or two.
Now, according to these sources, there have been attacks with 5, 10, 20 and more armoured vehicles and tanks, in several directions.

About their strategy, why they attack there and not elsewhere, I agree with the theory that they attack the weakest spots. Above all, Pokrovsk is still their top priority. 45% of the fighting happens there according to Ukrinform. Followed by Sumy, Toresk, Kupiansk and, more recently, Zaporyzhia. The towns close to the front are their priorities but they keep attacking a little bit everywhere. If, apparently, they don't have a clear strategy, it's because any square meter of territory is good to take.
Interesting and certainly plausible. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

There is a sens of deja vu.

It's difficult to check the facts from independant sources. I haven't read or heard of a general being fired for organising a gathering anywhere. Anyway, no matter the target, no matter what the Russians are saying, it's a war crime.
There's footage from the target area after the strike that shows Ukrainian military vehicles were hit, and Ukrainian sources confirm it was a military ceremony. While I don't know for a fact that the general in question was fired, it would certainly make sense. But the greater point is that they hit a military target, that some sources tried to claim was a civilian one.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Breaking News
It seems that Rubio/Trump's warning had an effect on Valdimir Putin:
BBC News Ruskaya sluzhba (translated) said:
Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a unilateral ceasefire, which he linked to the Easter holiday. The Russian Defense Ministry confirmed that the truce would be in effect from 18:00 April 19 to 00:00 April 21 Moscow time (15:00 April 19 - 21:00 April 20 GMT), subject to mutual compliance by Kyiv
link
Thought limited, it would be very interesting and very good news if Russians observed their self-imposed ceasefire...
It would mean that Trump does have a small influence.
Of course it's a trick to kick the can, to drag their feet even longer before a real ceasefire, to prolong the agony, but the Russians could have done nothing at all and instead double down on missile attacks on Easter. The fact that they were forced to temporarily stop military action to "play Trump", to fake goodwill, is in itself a good sign.

Now, let's see if the truce will be applied...
_______________
Sumy Strike
According to the Kyivindependent, it happens that an awards ceremony for the 117th Brigade was planned (but apparently not held) in Sumy the day of the attack, and maybe, the Russians knew about it.
However nothing indicates, unlike last time, that the military gathering was hit. Russians may have known the date but no more details about location and time.
They fired two Iskanders on the city center. It was not a suburb or something. Russians were certain to kill civilians doing this. As a result 36 civilian died. 45 remains hospitalised.

If they have killed military personel on top of the civilians, it's only an aggravating circumstance for this war crime.
the fact that they double tapped is a third aggravating circumstance.

A case was opened against the Sumy governor who organised the cerempny. The Sumy governor and the Lugansk governor were both dismissed.
They don't talk about a general being fired, but if someone has a link...

It should be noted that award ceremonies happens frequently in Ukraine when nobody drops ballistic missiles and President Zelensky is sometimes present in person. So it's not even given for certain that the Russians knew about it. We can only suppose that they did.

Hitting a military vehicle is not surprising in time of war, close to the front. It doesn't prove anything.
____________

Mineral Deal
Deputy Minister of Economy and Trade Representative of Ukraine Taras Kachka said:
There is no question of any new debt or transformation of previous aid into debt. There is no logic of “debt” in either the US or Ukrainian proposals. We are talking about how much the United States and Ukraine want to earn from investments.

The figure of “debt” appeared in the negotiations only once - in the version of the agreement that was published in the media. “Since then, there have been no attempts to formulate figures, because everyone understands that this is not a debt, but a mutually beneficial cooperation.
link
If true, it would mean that the Trump administration accepted or made a more reasonable proposal.

It's also not limited to rare earths or minerals:
Taras Kachka said:
This fund, as a financial instrument, will have the preferential right to invest in a broad range of sectors in Ukraine as soon as opportunities arise. While mineral resources are a primary focus, we are also interested in American investments in infrastructure, including roads, ports, and energy
link
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Breaking News
It seems that Rubio/Trump's warning had an effect on Valdimir Putin:

link
Thought limited, it would be very interesting and very good news if Russians observed their self-imposed ceasefire...
It would mean that Trump does have a small influence.
Of course it's a trick to kick the can, to drag their feet even longer before a real ceasefire, to prolong the agony, but the Russians could have done nothing at all and instead double down on missile attacks on Easter. The fact that they were forced to temporarily stop military action to "play Trump", to fake goodwill, is in itself a good sign.

Now, let's see if the truce will be applied...
It's probably an attempt to appease Trump while putting Ukraine on the spot. Russia didn't observe the energy ceasefire, and there are good chances they won't observe this one.

EDIT: Sorry, I don't know how my brain replaced one with the other but I meant to write that Ukraine didn't respect the energy ceasefire. To be clear we have seen a lack of dedicated Russian strikes against Ukrainian energy infrastructure. This doesn't necessarily represent a particular restraint on Russia's part, the winter is over and those infrastructure targets are less significant. On the other hand the re-assingment of Ukrainian drone-defense teams to combat units has allowed Russian Shahed strikes to be quite devastating recently so...

Anyway, to be clear I think Russia is banking on Ukraine failing to observe this ceasefire or even verbally agree to it.

Sumy Strike
According to the Kyivindependent, it happens that an awards ceremony for the 117th Brigade was planned (but apparently not held) in Sumy the day of the attack, and maybe, the Russians knew about it.
However nothing indicates, unlike last time, that the military gathering was hit. Russians may have known the date but no more details about location and time.
They fired two Iskanders on the city center. It was not a suburb or something. Russians were certain to kill civilians doing this. As a result 36 civilian died. 45 remains hospitalised.

If they have killed military personel on top of the civilians, it's only an aggravating circumstance for this war crime.
the fact that they double tapped is a third aggravating circumstance.

A case was opened against the Sumy governor who organised the cerempny. The Sumy governor and the Lugansk governor were both dismissed.
They don't talk about a general being fired, but if someone has a link...

It should be noted that award ceremonies happens frequently in Ukraine when nobody drops ballistic missiles and President Zelensky is sometimes present in person. So it's not even given for certain that the Russians knew about it. We can only suppose that they did.

Hitting a military vehicle is not surprising in time of war, close to the front. It doesn't prove anything.
The obvious counter-point is that Ukraine organizes large gatherings of military personnel in a dense urban area, knowing that Russia makes an effort to hit such gatherings. Ukraine has been hiding military assets among civilian infrastructure since the start of the war, knowing that it will lead to collateral damage and even got called out by NGOs for this behavior.
 
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KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
They don't talk about a general being fired, but if someone has a link...
I may be missing something, but you are the one who mentioned some general? Not sure what link you are asking for.

Edit: Regarding the “Easter ceasefire”, I am pretty sure Putin has proposed every Easter, except for 2022. It was always outright rejected by Ukraine. Whether it holds or not - no idea. I highly doubt it though.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Does a ceasefire prevent the movement of troops and supplies to reinforce front lines,I could understand the Ukrainians finding this problematic
It does not. In fact some Russian sources are claiming many such rotations are happening by both sides during this ceasefire. It's actually interesting to find out who benefits more.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member

Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
The obvious counter-point is that Ukraine organizes large gatherings of military personnel in a dense urban area, knowing that Russia makes an effort to hit such gatherings. Ukraine has been hiding military assets among civilian infrastructure since the start of the war, knowing that it will lead to collateral damage and even got called out by NGOs for this behaviour.
Russians don't have to strike Ukrainian military gatherings, neither in urban areas nor in the country side. They have to get out of Ukraine and let people live in peace.
Russians are striking Ukrainian cities on a daily basis: Kherson, Kryvih Riv, Dnipro, Zaporyzhia,... Just before they announced the Easter Truce, they dropped two more Iskanders on Kharkiv killing one, wounding 90.
That they do so by trying to hit a military target or not, to me it's mute point. Nuremberg 2.0 for them.

Feanor said:
It's probably an attempt to appease Trump while putting Ukraine on the spot.
Both parties are going to accuse the other of breaching it or to say that they fired in response to the other firing first. In practice it will be a non-event:



It's also extremely difficult to apply a ceasefire on a front line of this size. That's something that should be prepared weeks in advance. Announcing it on the eve is not serious, al thought it's still a sign of something.

Feanor said:
Anyway, to be clear I think Russia is banking on Ukraine failing to observe this ceasefire or even verbally agree to it.
They didn't agree or disagree. They responded that Russia has been rejecting the cease fire for 36 days and that they didn't believe that a 2 days truce will change anything.

There is a reduction on combat activity, albeit not a stop.
Ukrinform reports:
In the Donetsk region, Russian shelling over the past day has caused significant destruction, damaging 34 civilian structures.
Russian invaders killed two residents of Donetsk region yesterday, April 19, and injured five other people.
One person killed, four injured as Russians shell Kherson region on Saturday
Russian troops fired three times at Kupiansk with multiple rocket launchers yesterday, injuring three people.
127 combat engagements on frontline in past 24 hours, fiercest fighting in Pokrovsk sector

They also proudly claim to have destroyed a state-of-the-art enemy T-80BVM tank in the Lyman sector , to have hit Russian positions with Baba Yaga drones in the Kharkiv region and two IFVs in the Pokrovsk sector.
This could be an acknowledgement that they don't observe the truce (Else they wouldn't report that they hit Russian positions). But as I said, they can always reply that it was in response to Russian fire.

Interestingly, their daily report on Russian casualties and material loss has slightly decreased:
Only one tank (maybe the T-80BVM they were talking about).
However the number of artillery guns and various vehicle is still the same. While not a radical decrease, it indicates a visible reduction in the intensity.

Feanor said:
I meant to write that Ukraine didn't respect the energy ceasefire. To be clear we have seen a lack of dedicated Russian strikes against Ukrainian energy infrastructure.
Ukraine currently respects the Energy Ceasefire. They haven't targeted energy infrastructure for a while.

However, Ukrainian drones continue to fly in the region between Moscow and Ukraine, two or three times a week. Many of these attacks are not reported by the press, neither by the Russian nor by the Ukrainian press. Maybe the Russians use this to say that Ukrainians don't respect the Energy Truce. I don't know.

Feanor said:
On the other hand the re-assingment of Ukrainian drone-defense teams to combat units has allowed Russian Shahed strikes to be quite devastating recently so...
I don't know about reassignment but it's true that the interception rate has fallen recently. it could be also because the Russians improved the UAV or the way they use it.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't know about reassignment but it's true that the interception rate has fallen recently. it could be also because the Russians improved the UAV or the way they use it.
What? It was discussed even on this thread, Ukraine moved ~50k personnel from rear end units to combat arms in iirc January of this year.

Ukraine currently respects the Energy Ceasefire. They haven't targeted energy infrastructure for a while.
This is simply not true. Ukraine hit energy infrastructure targets inside Russia during the energy ceasefire. This information has been posted in this very thread.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
While a general ceasefire benefits both sides more or less equally, an energy ceasefire benefits Russia far more than it does Ukraine, because that hits Russia's revenue and thus war funding - critical in the absence of a credible or at least demonstrated capability of Ukraine to meaningfully hit Russia's MIC.
I don't see any logical reason why Ukraine would accept such an arrangement - except if the US applied certain pressure on Ukraine. We don't know yet if it's a carrot or a stick.

We also know that a general ceasefire isn't followed, so if Ukraine chooses to retaliate, it makes sense to do so against energy assets which have more practical effect than blunting the umpteenth assault in Bukhanka-ville.
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