Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Mainly because carrying external stores defeats the purpose of paying the extra cost of stealthy aircraft. Same if carrying LRASM or AIM 174B. I understand your point though that a non stealthy aircraft is not stealthy at any point. As mentioned I think F15EX is the better solution for Australia for that role due to its capacity and range.
Hardly.

Reduced LO capability on one particular mission profile when employing stand off munitions.

I would put money on the fact that an F-35 with external payload is going to have a significantly lower RCS than an F-18 with equivalent payload. Especially when that payload is made up of LO munitions.

So no, not defeating the purpose of having a low RCS platform.
 

MARKMILES77

Well-Known Member
On the issue of whether more F-18Fs or F-35s would be the best option for the RAAF, there is one issue that I do not see mentioned.
We know that Australia is getting a (hopefully) large number of Ghost Bats to accompany the manned fighters.
Is it realistic to think that the pilot of a single seat fighter, flying with say a pair of Ghostbats, can fly and fight his own plane and monitor the information coming from the UCAVs. And once the Ghostbats are armed, the pilot has to manage the weapons on those as well.
I just do not think that is realistic. In the high stress enviroment of combat I suspect the pilot would become task saturated and unable to devote any time to monitoring or fighting the UCAVs. Add a second seat and a weapon system operator whose main task is managing the accompanying Ghostbats and things seem much more reasonable.
Personally, I think this may turn out to be a huge issue and it will ultimetely be realised that 2 seats are necessary for any form of manned unmanned teaming arrangement.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On the issue of whether more F-18Fs or F-35s would be the best option for the RAAF, there is one issue that I do not see mentioned.
We know that Australia is getting a (hopefully) large number of Ghost Bats to accompany the manned fighters.
Is it realistic to think that the pilot of a single seat fighter, flying with say a pair of Ghostbats, can fly and fight his own plane and monitor the information coming from the UCAVs. And once the Ghostbats are armed, the pilot has to manage the weapons on those as well.
I just do not think that is realistic. In the high stress enviroment of combat I suspect the pilot would become task saturated and unable to devote any time to monitoring or fighting the UCAVs. Add a second seat and a weapon system operator whose main task is managing the accompanying Ghostbats and things seem much more reasonable.
Personally, I think this may turn out to be a huge issue and it will ultimetely be realised that 2 seats are necessary for any form of manned unmanned teaming arrangement.
I think in the not so distant future, A.I. will control the UAVs not a manned asset.
A mission that would tie up say 4 FGA's might be reduced to 1 or 2 FGA,s and a couple of UAVs.
 

Julian 82

Active Member
On the issue of whether more F-18Fs or F-35s would be the best option for the RAAF, there is one issue that I do not see mentioned.
We know that Australia is getting a (hopefully) large number of Ghost Bats to accompany the manned fighters.
Is it realistic to think that the pilot of a single seat fighter, flying with say a pair of Ghostbats, can fly and fight his own plane and monitor the information coming from the UCAVs. And once the Ghostbats are armed, the pilot has to manage the weapons on those as well.
I just do not think that is realistic. In the high stress enviroment of combat I suspect the pilot would become task saturated and unable to devote any time to monitoring or fighting the UCAVs. Add a second seat and a weapon system operator whose main task is managing the accompanying Ghostbats and things seem much more reasonable.
Personally, I think this may turn out to be a huge issue and it will ultimetely be realised that 2 seats are necessary for any form of manned unmanned teaming arrangement.
The F-35 does with one crew member what the F-15E does with two crew. The sensor fusion engine is the secret sauce and fuses information from both onboard and off board sensors. The loyal wingman is not intended to be tethered to a man-in-the-loop but will most likely operate autonomously within the framework of prompted commands from the pilot.
 

MARKMILES77

Well-Known Member
The F-35 does with one crew member what the F-15E does with two crew. The sensor fusion engine is the secret sauce and fuses information from both onboard and off board sensors. The loyal wingman is not intended to be tethered to a man-in-the-loop but will most likely operate autonomously within the framework of prompted commands from the pilot.
This is clearly the hope, but if you want to use the UCAV soon, then I don't think it will be possible.
Personally I think it will be like full self driving for Teslas. Wasn't it first meant to be available widely 10 years ago.
Then the complexity of what you are trying to achieve bites you.
And the RAAF doesn't have the resources of Tesla!
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On the issue of whether more F-18Fs or F-35s would be the best option for the RAAF, there is one issue that I do not see mentioned.
We know that Australia is getting a (hopefully) large number of Ghost Bats to accompany the manned fighters.
Is it realistic to think that the pilot of a single seat fighter, flying with say a pair of Ghostbats, can fly and fight his own plane and monitor the information coming from the UCAVs. And once the Ghostbats are armed, the pilot has to manage the weapons on those as well.
I just do not think that is realistic. In the high stress enviroment of combat I suspect the pilot would become task saturated and unable to devote any time to monitoring or fighting the UCAVs. Add a second seat and a weapon system operator whose main task is managing the accompanying Ghostbats and things seem much more reasonable.
Personally, I think this may turn out to be a huge issue and it will ultimetely be realised that 2 seats are necessary for any form of manned unmanned teaming arrangement.
The MQ-28A’s are being designed to provide ISR capability only at this stage, quite possibly because of this issue ( and undoubtedly the ballooning cost).. The task saturation will also depend entirely on how much “work” the pilot is required to do to manage as you say the MQ-28A’s.

It has been reported that much if not all of the basic flight operations are handled autonomously by the platform, which really means that the ISR feed is what the pilot (and undoubtedly others) have to manage. In that sense, is this any different to what an F-35 driver already has to do?

The feed from the UCAS, will likely be but one of many incoming feeds the F-35 operator has to manage.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Unarmed drones don't present the same problems as armed drones do when it comes to humans overseeing missions. I think we are are many years away from arming the MQ-28 ... unless there is a war in which case all bets are off.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Hardly.

Reduced LO capability on one particular mission profile when employing stand off munitions.

I would put money on the fact that an F-35 with external payload is going to have a significantly lower RCS than an F-18 with equivalent payload. Especially when that payload is made up of LO munitions.

So no, not defeating the purpose of having a low RCS platform.
As far as I am aware there are very few LO weapons and they are typically LO when on their own flight….not so much when attached to the aircraft. My point really is if you have a role that requires flinging big heavy weapons over long distances why pay for stealth when there are longer legged options. What’s the defining metric for Australia’s defence? Distance. They have to go a long way to get here. We want to go a long way to stop them before they get here. All that said it appears to be a moot point if the coalition is elected. Sounds like deal done,
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
As far as I am aware there are very few LO weapons and they are typically LO when on their own flight….not so much when attached to the aircraft. My point really is if you have a role that requires flinging big heavy weapons over long distances why pay for stealth when there are longer legged options. What’s the defining metric for Australia’s defence? Distance. They have to go a long way to get here. We want to go a long way to stop them before they get here. All that said it appears to be a moot point if the coalition is elected. Sounds like deal done,
One of the things to keep in mind is that different scenarios exist. Some of the missions might involve long-ranged flight and air-launches at a significant distance from the target, so that the aircraft signature being LO is not so important. OTOH there could easily be missions where it becomes important, perhaps even very important, for an aircraft to be able to get quite close to hostiles whilst remaining undetected.

Imagine for instance that the PRC had loitering broad area surveillance aircraft monitoring large volumes of airspace and sea approaches that Australian and/or allied forces would need to transit to effect strikes, or perhaps to resupply or reinforce units operating somewhere. Such surveillance aircraft could potentially detect transiting aircraft or surface vessels and either cause potential targets to be ready for inbound strikes, or be utilized to track forces for interception and engagement but PRC forces. A couple of F-35's in a LO largely clean config, possibly backed up with ISR and/or tanker assets, could be used to 'ambush' PRC surveillance assets and drastically reduce the PRC's area SA. Afterwards said F-35's could be re-tasked for strike missions, or possibly get used to 'ambush' hostiles elsewhere. By just getting another non-LO aircraft for strike, of a type not alread in RAAF service, one is taking on additional expenses without really adding significantly to capabilities.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
I would find it helpful if commenters (and political parties) specified whether they are advocating replacement of the SH (and or Growler capability) with F-35, F-15EX or Ghostbat or creating one or more new squadrons with these aircraft or with new Super Hornets. Is your proposed force structure for the RAAF to have 4, 5 or 6 squadrons of fast jets?
None.

3 Sqn is a perfectly suitable MVC level. When the budget gets some freedom in it you can consider additional fighter squadrons, but from a Joint Force point of view (hell, from an air power pint of view) there are move valuable investments that should be delivered first.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
None.

3 Sqn is a perfectly suitable MVC level. When the budget gets some freedom in it you can consider additional fighter squadrons, but from a Joint Force point of view (hell, from an air power pint of view) there are move valuable investments that should be delivered first.
If there’s extra coin and restricting additions to the RAAF only where would you invest the money.
Additional aircraft and if so which ones?
Infrastructure?
Personal?
Weapons inventory?
Something else?

Regards S
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As far as I am aware there are very few LO weapons and they are typically LO when on their own flight….not so much when attached to the aircraft. My point really is if you have a role that requires flinging big heavy weapons over long distances why pay for stealth when there are longer legged options. What’s the defining metric for Australia’s defence? Distance. They have to go a long way to get here. We want to go a long way to stop them before they get here. All that said it appears to be a moot point if the coalition is elected. Sounds like deal done,
Yet another user that thinks it”s a good idea…


The USMC with AGM-158C LRASM, on their F-35B’s now…

IMG_1186.png
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The USMC with AGM-158C LRASM, on their F-35B’s now…
OH I see, your saying we should get F-35Bs?
All jokes aside, it would be useful to know where the F-35 are with weapons integration. I am always sceptical of the USAF with USN weapons, we have seen a F-35C and a F-35B... interservice fighting is definitely a thing in the F-35 program.

My point about F18s are not that its a superior aircraft, its not, its just about FOC and delivery. Both of which could still be in the F-35 favor.

I'm not even sure the F-18s are on the table even if we wanted them. There are only 12 F-18Fs being built if that is what we were after, presumably because we don't operate any F-18Es. While the aircraft may be available do we have the pilots and crews for them. If that can't be built robustly in time then early delivery of F_18 over F_35 makes no sense anyway. Taking planes off a USN order would have to be arranged and approved. These SH were forced onto the USN by congress, presumably they hope some foreign buyer wants them. Kuwait? They do operate E's and F's. Maybe Kuwait already has designs on them.

Are we still upgrading superhornets to blk III? was that cancelled/delayed?

If the idea is to carry LRASM, P8 may be the better platform for that, with longer range. Which makes F-35/F-18 more of a secondary role.

Have we committed with P8 mod 2?

In that sense it may make more sense for more P8 over fighters.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
None.

3 Sqn is a perfectly suitable MVC level. When the budget gets some freedom in it you can consider additional fighter squadrons, but from a Joint Force point of view (hell, from an air power pint of view) there are move valuable investments that should be delivered first.
But there are 5 squadrons of fast jets now. I understand your view and agree on this point. I was, however, trying to encourage commenters who are advocating for new aircraft to specify whether they are arguing to replace one or more of the existing squadrons or to add a sixth squadron (I accept some have and have discussed bases etc).

So far as I know, the Coalition has not specified its position on this matter. As a major party announcement in the lead up to an election that seems worth discussing here (without discussing the politics).
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I can understand using the Poseidon as a platform to carry the LRASM but it is a large slow non stealthy aircraft designed for a different role its not to say missiles for self defence should not be considered ,I have included a diagram comparing detection range estimated between the f35 and f15ex I would expect the P-8 to be many times more than the P8 , A P8 is also half the speed and twice the cost of these aircraft
There were some claims that the f15ex may have some role with the Eagles Passive Warning Survivability System added
.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
But there are 5 squadrons of fast jets now. I understand your view and agree on this point. I was, however, trying to encourage commenters who are advocating for new aircraft to specify whether they are arguing to replace one or more of the existing squadrons or to add a sixth squadron (I accept some have and have discussed bases etc).

So far as I know, the Coalition has not specified its position on this matter. As a major party announcement in the lead up to an election that seems worth discussing here (without discussing the politics).
Do we have to have any change to structure? Why cant existing squadrons get another 10 airframes each?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I can understand using the Poseidon as a platform to carry the LRASM but it is a large slow non stealthy aircraft designed for a different role its not to say missiles for self defence should not be considered ,I have included a diagram comparing detection range estimated between the f35 and f15ex I would expect the P-8 to be many times more than the P8 , A P8 is also half the speed and twice the cost of these aircraft
There were some claims that the f15ex may have some role with the Eagles Passive Warning Survivability System added
.
Keep in mind the potential detection range of a P-8 when monitoring sea areas. IIRC the claimed ranges are in the neighbourhood of 200+ miles, so whilst yes, a P-8 would have little chance to evade or escape a fighter/CAP that was in position around a hostile TF, it would still be well out of range for most ship-launched air defence missiles. All this whilst managing to detect and possibly target a TF, as well as relaying targeting data to other potential shoots and command elements which might task other assets. So, if an individual ship or TF is busy looking at the P-8 Poseidon loitering, a Collins-class SSG or some other sub might be very quietly approaching the TF or a likely chokepoint based off data from the P-8. A couple of Mk 48 ADCAP's are just the thing to ruin a TF commander's day.
 
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