Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

[Terran]

Upside downside on the 2030s timeline. Upside if they go Boeing “C”E7 then by that point the USAF should have completed its acquisition. The USAF E7 program is likely to dominate the production line for the foreseeable future. So a later step after or about last stage of USAF delivery would give the Canadians three things. First a strong position of getting the most modern configurations. Second a cheaper price package and third the USAF as a training partnership via NORAD.
For Saab Globaleye it’s likely going to depend on what happens to the European market and particularly the Alliance Future Surveillance and Control program for the French. If the French government accelerates AFSC and buys Globaleye and in a larger fleet than the E4F fleet’s 4 ships than by the 2030s Canada may have a good chance of having the ability to buy. If they don’t. Then it may be that by the 2030s timeframe they will be looking at a completely different market and forced to either pay for redevelopment of a product like the British are for the E7 Wedgetail or some yet to be introduced product. A 20 year procurement cycle like this is just to damned slow. I mean had they used this model in ww2 then the RCAF would have been using world war 1 wood and fabric biplanes.

 

[John Fedup]

@Terran …sadly this long procurement cycle is what has ruined many projects and diminished the capability of Canada’s defence forces. Our pollies are incapable of figuring this out.

 

[seaspear]

Perhaps governor Trudeau should be alert to other reasons to raise defence spending just saying

 

[John Fedup]

Perhaps governor Trudeau should be alert to other reasons to raise defence spending just saying

“alert” is one of many words that aren’t applicable to junior. However there many other words that are, ones which the mods frown upon.

 

[Sender]

Great channel by a Cormorant pilot showing off the skills of the RCAF SAR cadre. The link below is a tour of the Cormorant (EH101), and is probably the most detailed I have seen for this helicopter type. There are other videos in the channel of actual SAR missions. Very well done. And extremely underrated and underappreciated capability in the RCAF.

 

[John Fedup]

Great channel by a Cormorant pilot showing off the skills of the RCAF SAR cadre. The link below is a tour of the Cormorant (EH101), and is probably the most detailed I have seen for this helicopter type. There are other videos in the channel of actual SAR missions. Very well done. And extremely underrated and underappreciated capability in the RCAF.

Needless to say the cancellation of the original EH101 order by Chretien caused the selection of the CH-148 Cyclone, a failure in so many ways.

 

[Sender]

Needless to say the cancellation of the original EH101 order by Chretien caused the selection of the CH-148 Cyclone, a failure in so many ways.

Actually, the Cyclone has matured into quite an effective and reliable platform. It's a big, powerful machine (2 x 3000SHP), optimized for maritime operations. As capable as an MH-60R for ASW, but with much more utility (roomier, a ramp, longer range, better sensors, etc...). It's really quite a good versatile helicopter for a navy that does not have the luxury of fielding multiple types. It took some time to get sorted, granted, but it's been fully operational and flying off the frigates for almost 6 year now. Not saying its perfect, but it's far from being a POS.

 

[John Fedup]

The delays had a huge impact on both cost and operations, both of which could have been avoided (TWICE!!), the original EH101 order and then a second time when the paper design HH92 was selected for the navy over the EH101 (and remember the EH101 was ordered earlier for SAR as it was the only viable machine actually in use). The Cyclone only exists because the Liberals didn't want to embarrass Chretien by basically restoring the Mulroney purchase. The CH-148 is an orphan class, no other military has selected it. Oh....lets not forget about the hundreds of millions in cancellation fees.

 

[Sender]

The delays had a huge impact on both cost and operations, both of which could have been avoided (TWICE!!), the original EH101 order and then a second time when the paper design HH92 was selected for the navy over the EH101 (and remember the EH101 was ordered earlier for SAR as it was the only viable machine actually in use). The Cyclone only exists because the Liberals didn't want to embarrass Chretien by basically restoring the Mulroney purchase. The CH-148 is an orphan class, no other military has selected it. Oh....lets not forget about the hundreds of millions in cancellation fees.

Not disagreeing. Just trying to counter the narrative that has taken hold that it's a bad helicopter. The project was definitely a disaster, but arguably the result is a pretty damn good maritime helicopter. As to it being an orphan class, it's still being marketed by Sikorski (CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter) so future sales are still a possibility, even to Canada, and it shares much in terms of commonalty with the new VH-92, including the fly-by-wire system. It's not as orphan as some might think.

I would add that developmental issues are not uncommon with this class of helicopter. The EH101 experienced issues for years, and I would argue that even though development began in the early 90s, the NH90 is still less than perfect.

 

[John Fedup]

Not disagreeing. Just trying to counter the narrative that has taken hold that it's a bad helicopter. The project was definitely a disaster, but arguably the result is a pretty damn good maritime helicopter. As to it being an orphan class, it's still being marketed by Sikorski (CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter) so future sales are still a possibility, even to Canada, and it shares much in terms of commonalty with the new VH-92, including the fly-by-wire system. It's not as orphan as some might think.

How many CDN dollars were invested in the fly-by-wire system for the HH92>CH-148? Not sure if this existed for the S-92 which is the Cyclone’s origin. Should send the current POTUS a bill. The VH-92 is like the CH-148, a political choice. The cost overruns with the VH-71(AH-101) and delays were duplicated with the VH-92. On a happier note, the spares and 7 VH-71 airframes at $164 million did a lot to sustain our CH-147 fleet.

 

[Terran]

How many CDN dollars were invested in the fly-by-wire system for the HH92>CH-148? Not sure if this existed for the S-92 which is the Cyclone’s origin. Should send the current POTUS a bill. The VH-92 is like the CH-148, a political choice. The cost overruns with the VH-71(AH-101) and delays were duplicated with the VH-92. On a happier note, the spares and 7 VH-71 airframes at $164 million did a lot to sustain our CH-147 fleet.

I am just going to jump in here on the VH71 the helicopter and cost overruns for that on the U.S. would have been far far higher. The OG scheme for the H71 was to have it manufactured in the U.S. as US101. That scheme would have had assembly by LM, parts manufacturing by Bell/Textron, a completely different engine from
The European models and the rest from AW. To justify the expense that consortium was bidding US101 to every possible program and project they could in hopes that they could achieve a volume significant enough to push the price down and make a profit.
The problem is non of the other projects chose the US101 or were cancelled. The Helicopters delivered to the U.S. were all prototypes or EH101 assembled in the UK. The actual VH71 never materialized from a U.S. line.

 

[Sender]

How many CDN dollars were invested in the fly-by-wire system for the HH92>CH-148? Not sure if this existed for the S-92 which is the Cyclone’s origin. Should send the current POTUS a bill. The VH-92 is like the CH-148, a political choice. The cost overruns with the VH-71(AH-101) and delays were duplicated with the VH-92. On a happier note, the spares and 7 VH-71 airframes at $164 million did a lot to sustain our CH-147 fleet.

I'm pretty sure the CH-148 project funded the FBW for the VH-92 - the precursor class S-92 does not have FBW. So yeah, let's bill the current POTUS.

On another note, the first of the three new-build CH-149 Cormorants is in construction at Leonardo in the UK. The first retrofit of an existing in-service RCAF airframe is to start this year at IMP in Halifax. It's a substantial upgrade, with new more powerful and fuel efficient engines and all new avionics. (Some details here: From 511 to 612: How Leonardo & IMP plan to overhaul the Canadian Cormorant - Skies Mag). First delivery of a new-build model is next year, so it's moving along pretty fast.

 

[Sender]

Not RCAF, but looks like our national police force is ordering new helos. This will hopefully help counter the Trump border narrative.

RCMP looking to add 14 'multi-role' helicopters to aviation fleet

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is looking to add up to 14 new multi-role helicopters to its aviation fleet as part of its air fleet renewal and modernization initiative.

verticalmag.com

 

[John Fedup]

Not RCAF, but looks like our national police force is ordering new helos. This will hopefully help counter the Trump border narrative.

RCMP looking to add 14 'multi-role' helicopters to aviation fleet

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is looking to add up to 14 new multi-role helicopters to its aviation fleet as part of its air fleet renewal and modernization initiative.

verticalmag.com

A worthwhile acquisition but I would hold off on any US source for this until Trump gets his $hit together. Toronto police are long overdue for this capability as well. IIRC, they rely on York Region, the OPP, and perhaps RCMP for helicopter support.

 

[Sender]

Some news on the $18Billion helicopter replacement projects:

Canada spins up Griffon replacement plan in move towards ‘balanced fleet concept’

Canada is likely to replace its ageing Bell CH-146 Griffons with multiple new rotorcraft types as it seeks a more "balanced fleet" to address its tactical transport needs.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[John Fedup]

End of the decade for this, based on other major procurements, doubtful. Maybe a new conservative government will do better but Harper didn’t exactly light a fire under the procurement bureaucracy during his time in power.

 

[OldTex]

Some news on the $18Billion helicopter replacement projects:

Canada spins up Griffon replacement plan in move towards ‘balanced fleet concept’

Canada is likely to replace its ageing Bell CH-146 Griffons with multiple new rotorcraft types as it seeks a more "balanced fleet" to address its tactical transport needs.

www.flightglobal.com

CDR has a recent article reporting on the RCAF rotary fleet. Regarding the CH-146 Griffon the report quoted a DND spokesperson saying "The GLLE project not only sustains the operational readiness of the Griffon fleet but also bridges the gap until the introduction of the Next Tactical Aviation Capability Set [nTACS]. nTACS is more than a replacement for the Griffon, it represents a revitalization of tactical aviation for the Canadian Armed Forces". The ISS contract and the GLLE project are supposed to keep the CH-146 in service until around 2035.
Canada is now part of the NATO Next Generation Rotorcraft Capability (NGRC) initiative which aims to replace medium multi-role capabilities ending their life cycle in 2035 and beyond. So it is hoped that NGRC may provide the platform for nTACS.
It is a long time to keep a 1990's platform operating and hoping the next big thing will arrive on time.

 

[John Fedup]

CDR has a recent article reporting on the RCAF rotary fleet. Regarding the CH-146 Griffon the report quoted a DND spokesperson saying "The GLLE project not only sustains the operational readiness of the Griffon fleet but also bridges the gap until the introduction of the Next Tactical Aviation Capability Set [nTACS]. nTACS is more than a replacement for the Griffon, it represents a revitalization of tactical aviation for the Canadian Armed Forces". The ISS contract and the GLLE project are supposed to keep the CH-146 in service until around 2035.
Canada is now part of the NATO Next Generation Rotorcraft Capability (NGRC) initiative which aims to replace medium multi-role capabilities ending their life cycle in 2035 and beyond. So it is hoped that NGRC may provide the platform for nTACS.
It is a long time to keep a 1990's platform operating and hoping the next big thing will arrive on time.

Yup, seems to mirror our SeaKing replacement wrt time. Hopefully no stupidity/cancellations stuff is repeated.

 

[Terran]

I know US Canada relations are probably at a low not seen Since Reagan and Trudeau Sr. Butted heads but looking at these statements…

An unpressurised aircraft “will not do very well in Canada’s north” because of the need to “fly up and above the weather”.

This requirement basically clears the board of any existing Military utility Helicopter or Helicopter. The only commercial rotor craft I can think of that has a pressurized cabin is the Leonardo AW609 tiltrotor. Which would be a great Air ambulance, VVIP, Utility aircraft but would have a number of issues in the Military Assault role. Even the V22 is unpressurized. The V280 as far as I am aware is not designed with a Pressurized cabin. However that could change as they transition from demonstration to production.

We are very interested in where tiltrotor technology is going. We just don’t know whether we can wait for them to get to the point where they are useable for Canada,”

Their timeline of the mid 2030s would work for the V280 which has similar requirements assuming no delays and US/Canadian relations sweeten.

These include armed attack, precision assault, C4ISR, special forces support and mobility – including the ability to deploy troops over long distances into Canada’s High North “to project power from our shores out into the Arctic

These fall into V280’s territory exactly.
I know Canada is looking to the NATO future rotor craft program but Airbus doesn’t have a product in this class yet. The Racer compound is neat but can it go the distance in the next 5-10 years? The only players who have Tiltrotor experience are Bell and Leonardo via the joint development of the AW609 with Bell. Any Leonardo military aircraft would have to break cover and go though an accelerated certification process to meet the early 2030s. Otherwise V280 is it. Unless they scrap range and pressure. Then it’s basically a Canadian version of the RAF NMH. H175, AW149, S70.

 

[Sender]

I know US Canada relations are probably at a low not seen Since Reagan and Trudeau Sr. Butted heads but looking at these statements…


This requirement basically clears the board of any existing Military utility Helicopter or Helicopter. The only commercial rotor craft I can think of that has a pressurized cabin is the Leonardo AW609 tiltrotor. Which would be a great Air ambulance, VVIP, Utility aircraft but would have a number of issues in the Military Assault role. Even the V22 is unpressurized. The V280 as far as I am aware is not designed with a Pressurized cabin. However that could change as they transition from demonstration to production.

Their timeline of the mid 2030s would work for the V280 which has similar requirements assuming no delays and US/Canadian relations sweeten.
These fall into V280’s territory exactly.
I know Canada is looking to the NATO future rotor craft program but Airbus doesn’t have a product in this class yet. The Racer compound is neat but can it go the distance in the next 5-10 years? The only players who have Tiltrotor experience are Bell and Leonardo via the joint development of the AW609 with Bell. Any Leonardo military aircraft would have to break cover and go though an accelerated certification process to meet the early 2030s. Otherwise V280 is it. Unless they scrap range and pressure. Then it’s basically a Canadian version of the RAF NMH. H175, AW149, S70.

The project is to acquire a set of capabilities, not just one type. The tiltrotor would be one of, from my understanding, up to four different types: Utility (to replace the Griffon - something like the H145M, H175M, or AW149), Attack (a new capability similar to the Apache), Recce (reacquiring a capability the RCAF had up until the late 90s with the CH-139 JetRanger), and this long-range assault capability represented by the tiltrotor. I've also heard it may be expanded to include a replacement (or upgrade) to the heavy lift side (currently Chinook). It's a developing story, but it's a funded program, so the project office is actively engaged with industry.

We might be able to infer the direction this project is taking with the following announcement: Airbus signs historic contract to provide 19 H135 military training helicopters to the Royal Canadian Air Force. In other words, towards a European type, at least for the Utility helicopter.