Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

swerve

Super Moderator
When Chile had its Type 23s modernised in Canada & CAMM integrated, they also got CMS330.

But Sweden's ordered CAMM for the Visby class. Guess what CMS they have? Yes, that's right - 9LV.

CAMM & CAMM-ER are also on order or delivered for ships with TACTICOS, the German/Brazilian CMS of the Brazilian Tamandaré class, the BAE CMS of Type 23, & ships with the Turkish Havelsan ADVENT CMS. Integration doesn't seem to be a major issue.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Navy's Fight in Red Sea Used 220 Missiles, But Officials Say That's Changing

To go back to an older discussion in this thread on the optimal ship based drone defence, the USN recently released some statistics about munitions expenditure from the Red Sea operation. See the attached article. I'll keep this to its relevance to the RAN.

In total USN ships had 380 separate engagements (drones, boats and missiles combined). They used 220 missiles and 160 5 inch shells during these. The figures exclude shore bombardments, so this specifically relates to defence.

The missile break down is 120 SM2, 80 SM6 and 20 ESSM/SM3.

Unsurprisingly SM2/6 were the most used missiles. Did their job well. Cost in the order of US$500 million.

I am suprised by the high use of the big gun, perhaps it is more effective than given credit. The article also indicates that the gun is effective against drones, not only for ship point defence, but also for convoy protection, given its 30-40km range. Lets assume those 160 5 inch shells offset an equal number of SM2 missiles, then that's a saving in the order of US$300 million and probably a years worth of missile production. The numbers aren't too different for ESSM.

Interestingly they combined the ESSM and SM3 quantities together. The two couldn't be more different if they tried. I suspect the SM3 might have been related to some balistic missile protection to Israel fired from ships in the Red Sea.

ESSM was the least used, which was a theme discussed earlier.

The data suggests that for standard drone attacks within the 30-50km envelope, the 5 inch gun is just as effective as ESSM. For missile attacks, the SM2/6 are used predominantly, presumably to maximise the range at which they can intercept.

For ships, such as the Constellation Class and the Type 31s, which have downsized the main gun to a 76mm size with a shorter range, they possibly loose out on this advantage the 5 inch has with range. They might have to rely more on missile defences, particularly when defending convoys. Perhaps larger calibre guns might come back into fashion as a medium range low cost drone defence.

I also don't think it reflects the all round benefit of the ESSM, just it is not as useful in this type of engagement (lots of drones and periodic small missile volleys). I suspect in a large advanced missile attack, the munitions consumption rate would be different, and ESSM would have a more useful place.

Horses for courses comes to mind. Big guns are evolving in their function and reducing the cost to defend against drones.
 
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iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
Navy's Fight in Red Sea Used 220 Missiles, But Officials Say That's Changing

To go back to an older discussion in this thread on the optimal ship based drone defence, the USN recently released some statistics about munitions expenditure from the Red Sea operation. See the attached article. I'll keep this to its relevance to the RAN.

In total USN ships had 380 separate engagements (drones, boats and missiles combined). They used 220 missiles and 160 5 inch shells during these. The figures exclude shore bombardments, so this specifically relates to defence.

The missile break down is 120 SM2, 80 SM6 and 20 ESSM/SM3.

Unsurprisingly SM2/6 were the most used missiles. Did their job well. Cost in the order of US$500 million.

I am suprised by the high use of the big gun, perhaps it is more effective than given credit. The article also indicates that the gun is effective against drones, not only for ship point defence, but also for convoy protection, given its 30-40km range. Lets assume those 160 5 inch shells offset an equal number of SM2 missiles, then that's a saving in the order of US$300 million and probably a years worth of missile production. The numbers aren't too different for ESSM.

Interestingly they combined the ESSM and SM3 quantities together. The two couldn't be more different if they tried. I suspect the SM3 might have been related to some balistic missile protection to Israel fired from ships in the Red Sea.

ESSM was the least used, which was a theme discussed earlier.

The data suggests that for standard drone attacks within the 30-50km envelope, the 5 inch gun is just as effective as ESSM. For missile attacks, the SM2/6 are used predominantly, presumably to maximise the range at which they can intercept.

For ships, such as the Constellation Class and the Type 31s, which have downsized the main gun to a 76mm size with a shorter range, they possibly loose out on this advantage the 5 inch has with range. They might have to rely more on missile defences, particularly when defending convoys. Perhaps larger calibre guns might come back into fashion as a medium range low cost drone defence.

I also don't think it reflects the all round benefit of the ESSM, just it is not as useful in this type of engagement (lots of drones and periodic small missile volleys). I suspect in a large advanced missile attack, the munitions consumption rate would be different, and ESSM would have a more useful place.

Horses for courses comes to mind. Big guns are evolving in their function and reducing the cost to defend against drones.
Both the RN Type 31 Inspiration Class and the USN Constellation Class are using the 57mm Mark 110 gun, not 76mm.
This in the case of the USN is due to the use of smart munitions (Advanced Low Cost Munitions Ordinance).
As a layman this seems too small a calibre to me. Are smart munitions available in 76mm?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
en Chile had its Type 23s modernised in Canada & CAMM integrated, they also got CMS330.

But Sweden's ordered CAMM for the Visby class. Guess what CMS they have? Yes, that's right - 9LV.

CAMM & CAMM-ER are also on order or delivered for ships with TACTICOS, the German/Brazilian CMS of the Brazilian Tamandaré class, the BAE CMS of Type 23, & ships with the Turkish Havelsan ADVENT CMS. Integration doesn't seem to be a major issue.
IIRC the Visby-class MLU which among other things is to add CAMM, is supposed to start some time this year with the first upgraded vessel expecting to be delivered sometime in 2026 (or at least according to releases dating from Nov 2023...)

As I see it, the issue with integrating a missile or weapon system into a new/another CMS is not so much whether it can be done, but more about how much it will cost, how long will it take, and would a prospective buyer be willing to pay for it or not.

If (big IF) Australia were to seriously look at adding Sea Ceptor into/onto the Canberra-class LHD's, that is a pair of vessels running some version of the 9LV CMS. With the five Visby-class corvettes (are they really corvettes, or large patrol boats?) that might make up a total of seven vessels running some version of 9LV and CAMM missiles, hence the question about cost.

TBH what I would really like to see, would be for someone (the Danes, MDBA, SH Defence or someone else) to develop a CAMM/Sea Ceptor missile silo module which could then be fitted aboard important naval vessels to provide a self-defence capability as needed.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
As I see it, the issue with integrating a missile or weapon system into a new/another CMS is not so much whether it can be done, but more about how much it will cost, how long will it take, and would a prospective buyer be willing to pay for it or not.

If (big IF) Australia were to seriously look at adding Sea Ceptor into/onto the Canberra-class LHD's, that is a pair of vessels running some version of the 9LV CMS. With the five Visby-class corvettes (are they really corvettes, or large patrol boats?) that might make up a total of seven vessels running some version of 9LV and CAMM missiles, hence the question about cost.
Its not just about cost. But its a factor.

It's about sometimes you can avoid the cost almost completely by letting someone else go first. This makes it much worse, because you look wasteful if you commit to do the integration work then someone else just comes along, or you can even end up with parallel integration programs doing the same thing, reinventing the wheel separately. Also a badly designed program can lead you down dark paths of orphaned systems and incompatible un-integratable or un-upgradable systems.

In this case. Sweden is fully committing to CAMM and 9LV.. They are going to pay basically all the integration costs and handle the risks themselves. Not that surprising, SAAB is swedish, its a local program they can do, CAMM probably the best missile to fit to something like the Visby. They are quite far along with this, again its very important for them, and undoubtedly by not integrating CAMM earlier, they aren't seeing many sales of new 9LV either (Canadia and New Zealandia both abandoned 9LV). Sweden is in europe, plenty of CAMM knowledge around there, and supply.

Once integrated on the Visby, the integration costs and risks for any Australia program is much much less. All the software/electronics stuff if basically done, you just need to do some localisation and the mechanical and structural modifications to physically fit the system. You fast follow someone else who has dealt with all these problems and your program is much cheaper, faster, lower risk and often with better outcomes and better execution.

So you just pay sweden a fix price licence for software, and pay a bunch of consultants to share their info, and it becomes a much happier bolt in solution. While not quite that simple, it's a heck of a lot easier than selling a complete integration from scratch to politicians who then need to spec out with Brass an actual achievable project about a missile we don't have much operational expertise with.

The Visby integration is particularly interesting as they aren't just using 9LV. They are also using SEA Giraffe. So the whole command and sensor loop will be integrated and transferable to the LHDs. So in this case, might be best not to put CEAFAR stuff on the LHD and keep the existing Giraffe setup. Giraffe is quite good, its what the Anzacs used to have, and the modern Giraffe is very good.

I imagine we were also hopeful that the Turks were going to spend some integration money on the LHDs, but theirs are so different there isn't a lot of commonality structurally, layout or electronically. The spanish also don't appear to be spending any money on the LHDs. The Turks were meant to fit Phalanx and RAM, but the Phalanx needed its own "tower" to be effective, completely changing a lot of the ship to do that, and the RAM launcher appears not to be fitted, possibly because of where it would be located would cause significant issues trying to use the RAM launcher while handling aircraft of having anything or anyone on deck as it is right near the "primary" rear lift and parking areas around it..

If ExLS low-profile CAMM could be fitted, we could probably keep the existing 25mm typhoons, which are still useful.

While it would be a new missile type, CAMM is pretty good, and already in use with the New Zealanders and UK. We could collaborate on war stocks, and any future NZ combatant, perhaps built in Australia, could have CAMM as we would be very familiar with it.

While often compared to ESSM, its not its natural competitor. The natural competitor is RAM, and the RAN has no RAM. CAMM would be ideal for smaller ships or auxiliary ships, its cold launch and compactness makes it for easy fits. With so much talk about bolting on more missiles, a CAMM launcher would make a lot more realistic sense as physically it's possible to do that. Bolting 50 tons of mk41 isn't (particularly onto an OPV or landing craft). With 9LV it would make it low risk integration. With it operational on the LHD, we could then looking at integrating Ceafar and CAMM and 9LV, again, much of the risk would be mitigated and it could be expanded to any combatant. Nulka launchers could disappear and it be fired from the ExLS making it a neater solution, freeing up deck space.

ESSM also has another issue. The nature of the program is multinational, involving unreliable Canada and crazy Turkey. Turkey disruptive status could be a future risk and also about having a completely sovereign ESSM production program may not be as easy as first appearing. Also if a hot war ever happens in Asia. ESSM is going to be gobbled up at a fantastic rate, possible more than SM-2 or any other missile. Having something else in the pantry, second source, possibly with some sovereign capability Could be useful, at least integrated. While not ideal as a ESSM replacement, its sure is a hell of a lot better than just 20mm rounds.

Again this is a reason why countries need to make defence spending a priority. Australia's capabilities are kinda depending on Sweden's integration. Sweden Cancelling the follow on Visbys kinda stuffed up a lot of 9LV integration stuff. Probably why other navies started to abandon 9LV or augmenting it. Undermining their defence capabilities and programs. Instead of force multiplying, you are force dividing.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
HMAS Adelaide is currently in the Captain Cook Graving Dock with “lots” of scaffolding around it, so something is certainly happening to it…

I recall around this time last year in similar fashion, HMAS Choules emerged from her maintenance period with a set of flat panel CEA radars attached and a Phalanx Block IB2 CIWS on the front of her…
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I understand the Canberra class are fitted with the Giraffe AMB radar is there a reason this class cannot also have CEAFAR radar installed
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Its not just about cost. But its a factor.

It's about sometimes you can avoid the cost almost completely by letting someone else go first. This makes it much worse, because you look wasteful if you commit to do the integration work then someone else just comes along, or you can even end up with parallel integration programs doing the same thing, reinventing the wheel separately. Also a badly designed program can lead you down dark paths of orphaned systems and incompatible un-integratable or un-upgradable systems.

In this case. Sweden is fully committing to CAMM and 9LV.. They are going to pay basically all the integration costs and handle the risks themselves. Not that surprising, SAAB is swedish, its a local program they can do, CAMM probably the best missile to fit to something like the Visby. They are quite far along with this, again its very important for them, and undoubtedly by not integrating CAMM earlier, they aren't seeing many sales of new 9LV either (Canadia and New Zealandia both abandoned 9LV). Sweden is in europe, plenty of CAMM knowledge around there, and supply.

Once integrated on the Visby, the integration costs and risks for any Australia program is much much less. All the software/electronics stuff if basically done, you just need to do some localisation and the mechanical and structural modifications to physically fit the system. You fast follow someone else who has dealt with all these problems and your program is much cheaper, faster, lower risk and often with better outcomes and better execution.

So you just pay sweden a fix price licence for software, and pay a bunch of consultants to share their info, and it becomes a much happier bolt in solution. While not quite that simple, it's a heck of a lot easier than selling a complete integration from scratch to politicians who then need to spec out with Brass an actual achievable project about a missile we don't have much operational expertise with.

The Visby integration is particularly interesting as they aren't just using 9LV. They are also using SEA Giraffe. So the whole command and sensor loop will be integrated and transferable to the LHDs. So in this case, might be best not to put CEAFAR stuff on the LHD and keep the existing Giraffe setup. Giraffe is quite good, its what the Anzacs used to have, and the modern Giraffe is very good.

I imagine we were also hopeful that the Turks were going to spend some integration money on the LHDs, but theirs are so different there isn't a lot of commonality structurally, layout or electronically. The spanish also don't appear to be spending any money on the LHDs. The Turks were meant to fit Phalanx and RAM, but the Phalanx needed its own "tower" to be effective, completely changing a lot of the ship to do that, and the RAM launcher appears not to be fitted, possibly because of where it would be located would cause significant issues trying to use the RAM launcher while handling aircraft of having anything or anyone on deck as it is right near the "primary" rear lift and parking areas around it..

If ExLS low-profile CAMM could be fitted, we could probably keep the existing 25mm typhoons, which are still useful.

While it would be a new missile type, CAMM is pretty good, and already in use with the New Zealanders and UK. We could collaborate on war stocks, and any future NZ combatant, perhaps built in Australia, could have CAMM as we would be very familiar with it.

While often compared to ESSM, its not its natural competitor. The natural competitor is RAM, and the RAN has no RAM. CAMM would be ideal for smaller ships or auxiliary ships, its cold launch and compactness makes it for easy fits. With so much talk about bolting on more missiles, a CAMM launcher would make a lot more realistic sense as physically it's possible to do that. Bolting 50 tons of mk41 isn't (particularly onto an OPV or landing craft). With 9LV it would make it low risk integration. With it operational on the LHD, we could then looking at integrating Ceafar and CAMM and 9LV, again, much of the risk would be mitigated and it could be expanded to any combatant. Nulka launchers could disappear and it be fired from the ExLS making it a neater solution, freeing up deck space.

ESSM also has another issue. The nature of the program is multinational, involving unreliable Canada and crazy Turkey. Turkey disruptive status could be a future risk and also about having a completely sovereign ESSM production program may not be as easy as first appearing. Also if a hot war ever happens in Asia. ESSM is going to be gobbled up at a fantastic rate, possible more than SM-2 or any other missile. Having something else in the pantry, second source, possibly with some sovereign capability Could be useful, at least integrated. While not ideal as a ESSM replacement, its sure is a hell of a lot better than just 20mm rounds.

Again this is a reason why countries need to make defence spending a priority. Australia's capabilities are kinda depending on Sweden's integration. Sweden Cancelling the follow on Visbys kinda stuffed up a lot of 9LV integration stuff. Probably why other navies started to abandon 9LV or augmenting it. Undermining their defence capabilities and programs. Instead of force multiplying, you are force dividing.
One question I would have is how similar the 9LV systems and interfaces Australia has adopted is to the Swedish systems. IIRC the ANZAC-class frigates were kitted out with Saab 9LV 200 originally, but this was well before CEAFAR and CEAMOUNT were standardized with ESSM. I vaguely recall the 9LV getting referenced as something like 451 afterwards, but could very well have that wrong.

From my POV Sea Ceptor (or CAMM if one prefers) is not really a direct replacement for or analogous to either the RIM-116 RAM, or the RIM-162 ESSM but rather a bit of one as well as a bit of the other. In terms of missile size and mass, it is certainly much closer to RAM than ESSM, but the outer range limits are more than twice that of RAM for the regular CAMM. One area where things can get a bit confusing has to do with the launchers, with CAMM or Sea Ceptor using types of VLS with cold launch which has similarities to the hot launched ESSM from VLS cells. RAM however uses either the Mk 49 GMLS or iterations of the Mk 15 SeaRAM CIWS which are steerable, hot launch systems which would fire a RAM more directly towards or at a threat than a VLS would. For some perspective, the ESSM carried aboard a USN Gerald R. Ford-class CVN are fire from Mk 29 GMLS which is also a steerable, directional which might be a consideration for a vessel which might see a high tempo of aviation activity.

Now if CAMM could undergo essentially a software integration enabling the missiles to be loaded and launched from current and planned VLS aboard RAN vessels, that would provide additional options. However, time, resources and cost would all be factors.

One needs to remember that the RAN is supposed to be selecting a new GP frigate design to be built initially in overseas yards, before a new yard in WA would take over the rest of the build. If that project does actually take place and delivers as suggested, there are going to be significant costs and resources required to get the XXX-class into service, even more so if at least some of the vessels in the class build feature kit not already in RAN service. This is atop both the upgrades planned for the Hobart-class DDG's and getting the Hunter-class FFG's completed and into service.

Unfort neither the RAN or Australia have an unlimited supply of coin or resources (and the technical personnel needed to make mods to software/hardware, or able able to test & certify those mods are indeed resources) which means that there could be funding and resource management issues as well as a risk/reward rankings.

Side note, does anyone have info on the approximate per missile cost for CAMM? I have found a few programme costs, but most of these do not include how many missiles are getting purchased or else the purchase includes additional things like ToT and local production rights.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I understand the Canberra class are fitted with the Giraffe AMB radar is there a reason this class cannot also have CEAFAR radar installed
Giraffe was common with Anzacs when they were procured. The Spanish and Turkish ships fit their own radars. It's a big ship with bigger margins, I would expect as a long as we aren't too ambitious it could be fitted.

Just money and time.

I imagine it wasn't a priority on the LHDs.. There was a lot more effort dealing with the vibration and service issues. Now those are fixed with the 4 bladed props, and the Anzacs have completed their radar upgrades, it's probably back on the list. But it shows how long it takes to really get a sorted, working platform, often 10+ years to really address all the little issues, even with a semi proven platform like the JC1 was.
One question I would have is how similar the 9LV systems and interfaces Australia has adopted is to the Swedish systems.
The are basically different evolutionary forks as I understand it. Core of it is same architecture. So there would be some integration work in terms of software, but its writing with all the answers and solutions already in place. Parts are quite different, things evolved different, consoles etc. But UI can be adapted and evolved fairly easily. Almost every project that is in Australia evolves differently over time, we are so far away from everywhere else with different priorities everything tends to evolve into its own animal. For Australia its sovereign capability, we can edit and do what we want, and have the capability to do so, so like the work with the radar. I'm no expert, it's also not something you are going to get a lot of detailed answers on a public forum.

Australia has mostly be interested in integrating sensor data into the CMS and network centric war fighting. So the Australian interface is really where most of the efforts are. Not just on ships and 9LV but JORN and E7 stuff. Australia typically doesn't have to do a lot of weird weapon integration stuff. So imagine much of the core of 9LV is basically the same. There hasn't been a need to modify that, and Australia signed recently another 10 year deal to keep 9LV at the core of every ship of the navy.

From my POV Sea Ceptor (or CAMM if one prefers) is not really a direct replacement for or analogous to either the RIM-116 RAM, or the RIM-162 ESSM but rather a bit of one as well as a bit of the other. In terms of missile size and mass, it is certainly much closer to RAM than ESSM, but the outer range limits are more than twice that of RAM for the regular CAMM. One area where things can get a bit confusing has to do with the launchers, with CAMM or Sea Ceptor using types of VLS with cold launch which has similarities to the hot launched ESSM from VLS cells. RAM however uses either the Mk 49 GMLS or iterations of the Mk 15 SeaRAM CIWS which are steerable, hot launch systems which would fire a RAM more directly towards or at a threat than a VLS would. For some perspective, the ESSM carried aboard a USN Gerald R. Ford-class CVN are fire from Mk 29 GMLS which is also a steerable, directional which might be a consideration for a vessel which might see a high tempo of aviation activity.
RAM from seaRAM or mk49 launcher used to be very important for RAM, as it pointed the missile sensor directly at the threat. As you mention they are very different equipment, even if they are broadly similar sizes. CAMM would be more dependant on CMS for cuing. Mk15 AFAIK could be more autonomous. On a big ship, that is taking damage, like USN ships, having a completely autonomous system provide redundancy. Even the two different RAM launchers exist for good reasons.

SeaRAM and RAM with 9LV? If there isn't room for ESSM then what options? Phalanx may be more appropriate than RAM because of hot launching around people. And a US carrier has more room and clearance than a RAN LHD. IMO Phalanx and CAMM combined may be a good CIWS combination as you are effectively creating more layers and better options for threats. CAMM/RAM ideal for small surface threats and small drones?

Unfort neither the RAN or Australia have an unlimited supply of coin or resources (and the technical personnel needed to make mods to software/hardware, or able able to test & certify those mods are indeed resources) which means that there could be funding and resource management issues as well as a risk/reward rankings.
True. But there is a priority. The LHD have proven absolutely critical for regional engagement and projection. They have been critical to Australia re-asserting itself as a regional power, again, in South East Asia and the Pacific. In our region, Australia is synonym for "the West". More than any other single platform or system. Their diplomatic power and big gunboat presence cannot be understated. Prime Ministers/presidents run to the top of mountains to see them arrive. Countries shift their approach to Australia because of them. In our region, they are the symbols of intrinsic power, capability and wealth. They assert democracy and rule of law. They deliver humanitarian aid locally and abroad. They deliver cooperation and engagement. They enable multi-domain warfare training in the region. When the US was lacking an Amphib at Hawaii RIMPAC, Australia replaced the Americans, in American waters. Symbolism isn't lost on the region. A region where these ships are the only ones of their type, where Australia is the only one from the region that can do certain things.



We are also really thin on escorts. Anzacs are tired and broken, and the 3 Hobarts need regular upgrades and service, as all destroyers do.Regularly pairing the LHD with a comprehensive number of escorts is always a challenge. Having the LHD provide at least an inner layer is critical, particularly when operating with allies navies who may lack integration or advanced systems. Also drone launching is likely to make the LHD useful and a higher priority target than previously.

They were very controversial when acquired, as too much ship, for a type of amphibious invasion that would never happen, but are now firmly in everyone's mind and hearts.
From my POV Sea Ceptor (or CAMM if one prefers)
In Australian, Sea Ceptor has too many syllables, and a slightly posh twang. But thats my personal view.

CAMM won't be underconsideration until after the swedes complete their thing in a few years. Which is fine, Phalanx in the traditional CIWS points makes a lot of sense anyway. I would never push an only missile approach anyway on that ship..
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
HMAS Adelaide is currently in the Captain Cook Graving Dock with “lots” of scaffolding around it, so something is certainly happening to it…

I recall around this time last year in similar fashion, HMAS Choules emerged from her maintenance period with a set of flat panel CEA radars attached and a Phalanx Block IB2 CIWS on the front of her…
Been in for a while now too, you get a nice view through the well deck when you walk across the caisson.
 
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