Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[hauritz]

Nada, zilch from defence on any aspect of the Arafura class. They didn’t even formally acknowledge when they started sea trials last year.

If the whole lot get cancelled, it wouldn’t surprise me. They appear to be a poisoned chalice…

Seems like around half the $4.7 billion budget has already been spent and not a lot to show for it. Rather than risk the budget blowing out on a ship that nobody seems to want they should just cut their losses and scrap the rest of the program. Lot of landing ship work coming up so shouldn't be a problem re-directing the work force.

OPINION | Australia's ghost fleet: the strange saga of the Arafura-class offshore patrol vessels

Last year, the US Navy’s Ghost Fleet visited Australia. This squadron consists of uncrewed surface vessels that are capable of long-range autonomous operations,

www.bairdmaritime.com

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[76mmGuns]

I wonder if the price of missiles made a difference? ESSM, SeaRam and SM-2 are quite similar these days. I'd prefer to shot a few extra 5 inch shells over an ESSM, other things being equal.

As for gun calibres, I'm still surprised the US limits itself and doesn't have the full range Europe avails itself to via the Italians. I mean, even their supply ships have 76mm guns. It's crazy to think a supply ship outguns a frigate.

 

[Todjaeger]

I wonder if the price of missiles made a difference? ESSM, SeaRam and SM-2 are quite similar these days. I'd prefer to shot a few extra 5 inch shells over an ESSM, other things being equal.

As for gun calibres, I'm still surprised the US limits itself and doesn't have the full range Europe avails itself to via the Italians. I mean, even their supply ships have 76mm guns. It's crazy to think a supply ship outguns a frigate.

Eh, what?!

Yes, RIM-116 (RAM), RIM-156 (SM-2) and RIM-162 (ESSM) are all missiles, but they have different sizes, costs, and capability sets, in some cases the differences and quite notable. Take ESSM (Block I, not sure the exact specs for Block II which entered USN service in ~2020) which can engage targets, including crossing targets, up to ~50 km away from the launching ship. AFAIK, the Italian naval gun/AA system comprising DART/STRALES 76 mm ammunition and gun has been test vs. aerial threats 5+ km from the shooter which is far short of what ESSM can achieve. TBH that tested range is about half what what the RIM-116 RAM can achieve and with a SeaRAM mount having the ability to operate autonomously could potentially be fitted aboard vessels which lack a sufficiently capable CMS to support more complex weapon systems. Interestingly, a RIM-156 (SM-2ER Block IV) has a range of some 200+ km give or take, so quite a bit of variation.

Given how expensive the missiles are, even the comparatively small RAM, I tend to suspect a significant part of the costs involve the electronics which make up the seeker, guidance and control systems, rather than the cost of fabricating the fuel, warhead, or missile bodies/casings.

Regarding the comment about USN frigate getting 'outgunned' by a supply vessel... keep in mind that USN vessels armed with the 57 mm Mk 110 guns like the LCS or upcoming Constellation-class FFG do not have the gun as their main armament. Rather the gun is to provide an anti-surface, anti-FAC and anti-air capability out to a few km, with the primary weapons systems aboard being something else. I do suppose a supply ship armed with a 76 mm gun and Vulcano rounds for it might be able to engage in anti-shipping, anti-surface and NGFS roles, but I am not certain that a supply ship would ever get fitted with a capable enough CMS and the appropriate data links to be able to make use of these capabilities.

 

[JBRobbo]

I wonder if the price of missiles made a difference? ESSM, SeaRam and SM-2 are quite similar these days. I'd prefer to shot a few extra 5 inch shells over an ESSM, other things being equal.

As for gun calibres, I'm still surprised the US limits itself and doesn't have the full range Europe avails itself to via the Italians. I mean, even their supply ships have 76mm guns. It's crazy to think a supply ship outguns a frigate.

Similar weight 76x636mm L/62 Sovraponte-Strales in SWaP reserved Phalanx positions, 2.3t 40x365mm L/70 Bofors Mk4 non-deck penetrating in the reserved stern quarter 30mm positions if possible, both true anti-air guns with +85 elevation and guided/air-burst munitions respectively. Typhoon-Mk30C and USN Mk38 Mod 4 limited to 70/65 degrees elevation, they don't have the same range, punch or utility. Mk49 RAM port & starboard might be inevitable but it's poorly 50/50 positioned on Hunter's and will require significant blast shielding, compared to the more open fwd/aft configuration with way better arcs on pretty much all German warships for e.g.

 

[spoz]

Similar weight 76x636mm L/62 Sovraponte-Strales in SWaP reserved Phalanx positions, 2.3t 40x365mm L/70 Bofors Mk4 non-deck penetrating in the reserved stern quarter 30mm positions if possible, both true anti-air guns with +85 elevation and guided/air-burst munitions respectively. Typhoon-Mk30C and USN Mk38 Mod 4 limited to 70/65 degrees elevation, they don't have the same range, punch or utility. Mk49 RAM port & starboard might be inevitable but it's poorly 50/50 positioned on Hunter's and will require significant blast shielding, compared to the more open fwd/aft configuration with way better arcs on pretty much all German warships.

Hunter is not presently planned to be fitted with SeaRAM; and there has been no indication that the RAN is interested in RAM in either configuration, and not in Arrow, nor CAMM, nor Patriot (which is not maritime adapted). Nor in anything else which does not fit in a Mk 41 launcher. Of course that might change but there is no present suggestion that it will. It certainly also has no current interest in 76mm, nor it would seem in 57mm. There was, and may remain, interest in a 40mm with programmable ammunition but it doesn't seem like any decision to purchase in imminent. My suspicion is that all of the maritime development people are presently working flat out on a frigate decision which is supposed to be made this year and, given the short time frame they have been allowed for that (and it is short, people), they have little capacity for anything else.

WRT Arafura, sea trials and subsequent activities were apparently completed shortly before Christmas. Like every body else, the Navy prefers to allow its people to not work over that period if they can avoid it; and standard Navy leave periods tend to finish at the beginning of the second week in January. So the guys and gals probably got back to work a couple of weeks ago. While I no longer have any insight into the Arafura program, it wouldn't surprise me if she transited to the West and commissioned there in the next few weeks.

 

[swerve]

...
Regarding the comment about USN frigate getting 'outgunned' by a supply vessel... keep in mind that USN vessels armed with the 57 mm Mk 110 guns like the LCS or upcoming Constellation-class FFG do not have the gun as their main armament. Rather the gun is to provide an anti-surface, anti-FAC and anti-air capability out to a few km, with the primary weapons systems aboard being something else. I do suppose a supply ship armed with a 76 mm gun and Vulcano rounds for it might be able to engage in anti-shipping, anti-surface and NGFS roles, but I am not certain that a supply ship would ever get fitted with a capable enough CMS and the appropriate data links to be able to make use of these capabilities.

AFAIK the only Italian supply ship with a 76mm gun is Stromboli - which is about to be retired. Her replacement, Atlante, is in the water & expected to be commissioned this year.

The newer Etna class have nothing bigger than 20mm, & the latest Vulcano class have 25mm - & are FFBNW one 76mm.

I also doubt that Stromboli is capable of making use of the capability of Vulcano or Strales rounds. She's coming up to 50 years old.

 

[JBRobbo]

w

Hunter is not presently planned to be fitted with SeaRAM; and there has been no indication that the RAN is interested in RAM in either configuration, and not in Arrow, nor CAMM, nor Patriot (which is not maritime adapted). Nor in anything else which does not fit in a Mk 41 launcher. Of course that might change but there is no present suggestion that it will. It certainly also has no current interest in 76mm, nor it would seem in 57mm. There was, and may remain, interest in a 40mm with programmable ammunition but it doesn't seem like any decision to purchase in imminent. My suspicion is that all of the maritime development people are presently working flat out on a frigate decision which is supposed to be made this year and, given the short time frame they have been allowed for that (and it is short, people), they have little capacity for anything else.

WRT Arafura, sea trials and subsequent activities were apparently completed shortly before Christmas. Like every body else, the Navy prefers to allow its people to not work over that period if they can avoid it; and standard Navy leave periods tend to finish at the beginning of the second week in January. So the guys and gals probably got back to work a couple of weeks ago. While I no longer have any insight into the Arafura program, it wouldn't surprise me if she transited to the West and commissioned there in the next few weeks.

I'm aware there's nothing official or even slighted to, but it was rumoured a few months back on a Royal Canadian Navy forum following their surprising selection of RAM Blk2 over the originally specified SeaCeptor for their future River/'Fraser' class Destroyers. Source said it was apparently unanimous amongst the RN, RAN and RCN to adopt RAM Blk2 in light of the situation in the Red Sea. Apparently 2x Mk49 GMLS the preferred option because of the high loadout of 42 missiles for more or less the same weight as 2x Phalanx. Most recent infographic shows no such Mk49 launchers however, but retains the 2x3-cell Mk41 ExLS suggesting their RAM Blk2 will be vertically launched. I simply suggested that were this to actually be adopted, the current Phalanx positions aren't ideal for a direct-fire Mk49 GMLS because of the back-blast and that a gun system is better suited to the positions. A modern approach on the traditional WW2 phased heavy-medium close-in gun armament of 127mm + 2x 76mm + 2x 40mm with the latest advancements in ammunition, somehow makes a lot of sense again to cut back on the cost-per-engagement in this age of swarm attacks from small, unsophisticated drones.

 

[hauritz]

w

I'm aware there's nothing official or even slighted to, but it was rumoured a few months back on a Royal Canadian Navy forum following their surprising selection of RAM Blk2 over the originally specified SeaCeptor for their future River/'Fraser' class Destroyers. Source said it was apparently unanimous amongst the RN, RAN and RCN to adopt RAM Blk2 in light of the situation in the Red Sea. Apparently 2x Mk49 GMLS the preferred option because of the high loadout of 42 missiles for more or less the same weight as 2x Phalanx. Most recent infographic shows no such Mk49 launchers however, but retains the 2x3-cell Mk41 ExLS suggesting their RAM Blk2 will be vertically launched. I simply suggested that were this to actually be adopted, the current Phalanx positions aren't ideal for a direct-fire Mk49 GMLS because of the back-blast and that a gun system is better suited to the positions. A modern approach on the traditional WW2 phased heavy-medium close-in gun armament of 127mm + 2x 76mm + 2x 40mm with the latest advancements in ammunition, somehow makes a lot of sense again to cut back on the cost-per-engagement in this age of swarm attacks from small, unsophisticated drones.

I believe RAM can be reloaded at sea as well. Probably important in this day of saturated missile and drone attacks.

 

[devo99]

WRT Arafura, sea trials and subsequent activities were apparently completed shortly before Christmas. Like every body else, the Navy prefers to allow its people to not work over that period if they can avoid it; and standard Navy leave periods tend to finish at the beginning of the second week in January. So the guys and gals probably got back to work a couple of weeks ago. While I no longer have any insight into the Arafura program, it wouldn't surprise me if she transited to the West and commissioned there in the next few weeks.

I do remember hearing about planning for Arafura to be commissioned early this year so that seems to line up.