Russian Air Force News & Discussion

[Sandhi Yudha]

Put this video on progress of Mi-38. This supposedly become Mi-8/17 replacement and potentially giving Russia something to offer against AW-101 in Export market.

The protracted development has been happening long before Ukraine War. Even after War started and western embargoes coming in full force, seems the development of fully Russian version will takes time. Sometimes I wandering whether Russia is put serious priority for Mi-17 replacement.

First flight in 2003, and still not in production. It indeed looks like they want to create a modern replacement for the Mi-8/-17 and SA 321, but without spending money and energy in the program.

 

[Terran]

First flight in 2003, and still not in production. It indeed looks like they want to create a modern replacement for the Mi-8/-17 and SA 321, but without spending money and energy in the program.

Same story with the KA60/62/64. They tried to make a Blackhawkski but it’s trapped in development hell.

 

[Feanor]

First flight in 2003, and still not in production. It indeed looks like they want to create a modern replacement for the Mi-8/-17 and SA 321, but without spending money and energy in the program.

Given the current situation it's a very unnecessary project. The upgraded Mi-8 family is more then adequate for Russian needs and still sells well on international markets. It's simply not the priority. The project had gained some ground pre-war but then got stuck again possibly due to sanctions or technology issues. Some quantity of Mi-38s were handed over as "serial", meaning with a serial technical passport, but then production halted again.

Same story with the KA60/62/64. They tried to make a Blackhawkski but it’s trapped in development hell.

I was never really sure why they were proceeding with it at all. A new naval helicopter is much more important.

 

[Terran]

I was never really sure why they were proceeding with it at all. A new naval helicopter is much more important

The Goal seems to have originated in the addressing the compromise made by the Mi24. By combining the troop transport with the gunship fuselage it sacrificed troop capacity. When loaded for passengers it looses weapons. When loaded for attack it looses passengers. Thats why ultimately only the Hind series takes that configuration.
In the early 1980s the Russians started looking at replacing the Hind they developed the Havok. The Havok despite all the video games isn’t a troop transport like the Hind. Though it has a small bay that could be used for passengers it’s not meant to be used on the regular.
Mi28 is a Gunship by design so if they wanted to replace Mi24 that would leave a gap requiring something to take the transport role. Initially they had another Flying IFV derived from the Havok in mind although more troop transport than gunship.
That requirement evolved and both Mil and Kamov saw an opportunity. However it was the 1980s the Soviet economy was in free fall. Those concepts were put on the back burner until the 1990 when Russian aviation was desperate to find potential export opportunities. Since then it’s been in development hell. It’s in the right size class for utility, ASW, CSAR, Assault, Ambulance , VIP roles. It’s just on export it hits either one of the more established foreign competitors like Sikorsky, Airbus, Leonardo. Or it’s to immature or the potential buyer is more interested in an indigenous development like India or China. Even The Russian government bought Italian AW139s for Use during the term of Medvedev as PM and President. Probably still used for that.

 

[Feanor]

The Goal seems to have originated in the addressing the compromise made by the Mi24. By combining the troop transport with the gunship fuselage it sacrificed troop capacity. When loaded for passengers it looses weapons. When loaded for attack it looses passengers. Thats why ultimately only the Hind series takes that configuration.
In the early 1980s the Russians started looking at replacing the Hind they developed the Havok. The Havok despite all the video games isn’t a troop transport like the Hind. Though it has a small bay that could be used for passengers it’s not meant to be used on the regular.
Mi28 is a Gunship by design so if they wanted to replace Mi24 that would leave a gap requiring something to take the transport role. Initially they had another Flying IFV derived from the Havok in mind although more troop transport than gunship.
That requirement evolved and both Mil and Kamov saw an opportunity. However it was the 1980s the Soviet economy was in free fall. Those concepts were put on the back burner until the 1990 when Russian aviation was desperate to find potential export opportunities. Since then it’s been in development hell. It’s in the right size class for utility, ASW, CSAR, Assault, Ambulance , VIP roles. It’s just on export it hits either one of the more established foreign competitors like Sikorsky, Airbus, Leonardo. Or it’s to immature or the potential buyer is more interested in an indigenous development like India or China. Even The Russian government bought Italian AW139s for Use during the term of Medvedev as PM and President. Probably still used for that.

I don't see how a Ka-60 addresses the Mi-24 compromise. Are you saying the planned to pair it with the Mi-28? If so, that's an odd decision. The Mi-8 family handles the transport role just fine, and can even provide fire support with the right loadout. Why create a whole new aircraft to fill the same role?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Given the current situation it's a very unnecessary project. The upgraded Mi-8 family is more then adequate for Russian needs and still sells well on international markets. It's simply not the priority. The project had gained some ground pre-war but then got stuck again possibly due to sanctions or technology issues. Some quantity of Mi-38s were handed over as "serial", meaning with a serial technical passport, but then production halted again.



I was never really sure why they were proceeding with it at all. A new naval helicopter is much more important.

Yes, the Mi-8/-17 is proven design, still capable and successful on the export market.

Didn't they plan to create a naval version, Ka-60K, as a Ka-27/-29 replacement?

 

[Terran]

I don't see how a Ka-60 addresses the Mi-24 compromise. Are you saying the planned to pair it with the Mi-28? If so, that's an odd decision. The Mi-8 family handles the transport role just fine, and can even provide fire support with the right loadout. Why create a whole new aircraft to fill the same role?

More or less yes. Eventually. Initially the Soviets intended to create a Flying IFV based off the Mi28 called the Mi40. It would have been much closer to the Mi24 in terms of configuration with only an 8 infantry capacity. The 1980s killed that but after the Mi28 had completed development.
Kamov and Mil in the early 1990s tried to salvage export and military sales opportunities using the data and designs they had creating the KA60 and Mil 54. With the Mil 54 being scrapped soon after conception. KA60 seemed more viable.
As to the compromise and partnership, is it really that odd? UH60 partners with AH64, Z20 partners with Z21/Z10. AH1 partners with UH1.
Again two Mi24 Carry about 14 paratroopers that 7 each and a door gunner. But it can only do so with a substantial reduction in arms.
A KA60 is supposed to carry 14 paratroopers per ship. So in a 2-2 you have moved from 2 striped Hinds and 14 infantry to 1 fully loaded Mi28 and one assault helicopter with 14 infantry. Of course in practice it would have likely been a different ratio.
However the driving force of the program or what there was of one was to try and get civilian sales to pay for military development. This likely lead to the stalled process.

The Mi-8 family handles the transport role just fine, and can even provide fire support with the right loadout. Why create a whole new aircraft to fill the same role?

In the original Soviets scheme the Mi8 was next on the list for retirement. Mil and the Soviets had planned a 5 year development for a Tiltrotor to replace the Mi8 between 1986 and 1995.
Of course that was the late 80s and the economics killed that.
Still if we look at other Air assault forces they often have 3 tiers of rotorcraft. An attacker, an Assaulter of 10+ troops and a cargo carrier often of 20+ troops. AH64+UH60+CH47 in example.

The Mi8 and Mi17 are large aircraft with three engines this makes them thirsty and with higher maintenance demand than a twin engine medium. They also have size restrictions that prevent the degree of strategic mobility available to a medium. In example you mentioned a Naval helicopter. Many western medium helicopters the size of the KA60 are navalized allowing use off naval destroyers and frigates without needing to develop a clean sheet aircraft. Kamov said they intended a KA60K for naval operations.
In size Aircraft like the S70 are able to be transported in larger numbers on transport like the C17 and even can be carried in C130. Where Mi8 would have to be partially disassembled for carry in Il72 and AN124 well taking up large volume. Bigger isn’t always better.

 

[Feanor]

Yes, the Mi-8/-17 is proven design, still capable and successful on the export market.

Didn't they plan to create a naval version, Ka-60K, as a Ka-27/-29 replacement?

Good question. The answer appears to be mostly no. The Minoga project is meant to be the next naval helicopter but it's exact configuration isn't really known. The models we've seen don't look like a Ka-60 variant so probably not. But it's hard to be certain.

More or less yes. Eventually. Initially the Soviets intended to create a Flying IFV based off the Mi28 called the Mi40. It would have been much closer to the Mi24 in terms of configuration with only an 8 infantry capacity. The 1980s killed that but after the Mi28 had completed development.
Kamov and Mil in the early 1990s tried to salvage export and military sales opportunities using the data and designs they had creating the KA60 and Mil 54. With the Mil 54 being scrapped soon after conception. KA60 seemed more viable.
As to the compromise and partnership, is it really that odd? UH60 partners with AH64, Z20 partners with Z21/Z10. AH1 partners with UH1.

Mi-28 partners with Mi-17. That's the logical step.

Again two Mi24 Carry about 14 paratroopers that 7 each and a door gunner. But it can only do so with a substantial reduction in arms.
A KA60 is supposed to carry 14 paratroopers per ship. So in a 2-2 you have moved from 2 striped Hinds and 14 infantry to 1 fully loaded Mi28 and one assault helicopter with 14 infantry. Of course in practice it would have likely been a different ratio.

Again why not just the Mi-8 family? They exist, they do the job.

However the driving force of the program or what there was of one was to try and get civilian sales to pay for military development. This likely lead to the stalled process.

I think the main thing is that the military didn't want it. In terms of Russian re-armament in the 2000's and 2010's the Mi-8 family was king for transport, along with small numbers of Mi-26s.

In the original Soviets scheme the Mi8 was next on the list for retirement. Mil and the Soviets had planned a 5 year development for a Tiltrotor to replace the Mi8 between 1986 and 1995.
Of course that was the late 80s and the economics killed that.
Still if we look at other Air assault forces they often have 3 tiers of rotorcraft. An attacker, an Assaulter of 10+ troops and a cargo carrier often of 20+ troops. AH64+UH60+CH47 in example.

The Mi8 and Mi17 are large aircraft with three engines this makes them thirsty and with higher maintenance demand than a twin engine medium.

Sorry, 3 engines? I believe they have two.

They also have size restrictions that prevent the degree of strategic mobility available to a medium. In example you mentioned a Naval helicopter. Many western medium helicopters the size of the KA60 are navalized allowing use off naval destroyers and frigates without needing to develop a clean sheet aircraft. Kamov said they intended a KA60K for naval operations.

The absolutely don't work for a naval helo and in fact Russia's most common post-Soviet warship is the 20380 family of corvettes, so a future naval helo has to fit in their hangar ruling out the Mi-8 family. Does the Ka-60 fit in there?

In size Aircraft like the S70 are able to be transported in larger numbers on transport like the C17 and even can be carried in C130. Where Mi8 would have to be partially disassembled for carry in Il72 and AN124 well taking up large volume. Bigger isn’t always better.

Fair enough but stacked against something that exists and can be purchased now it's not the strongest of arguments. I guess it makes sense on some level in Soviet military planning, where the resources were available. I had never encountered this explanation and was under the impression that the Ka-60 was one of those post-Soviet projects that "danced from the stove" in the sense of pushing off of a Soviet design because it existed not because it made sense to develop this specific aircraft. The context for the Ka-60 program is mostly post-Soviet and in that context it doesn't make much sense unless it's commercially viable.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

More or less yes. Eventually. Initially the Soviets intended to create a Flying IFV based off the Mi28 called the Mi40. It would have been much closer to the Mi24 in terms of configuration with only an 8 infantry capacity. The 1980s killed that but after the Mi28 had completed development.
Kamov and Mil in the early 1990s tried to salvage export and military sales opportunities using the data and designs they had creating the KA60 and Mil 54. With the Mil 54 being scrapped soon after conception. KA60 seemed more viable.
As to the compromise and partnership, is it really that odd? UH60 partners with AH64, Z20 partners with Z21/Z10. AH1 partners with UH1.
Again two Mi24 Carry about 14 paratroopers that 7 each and a door gunner. But it can only do so with a substantial reduction in arms.
A KA60 is supposed to carry 14 paratroopers per ship. So in a 2-2 you have moved from 2 striped Hinds and 14 infantry to 1 fully loaded Mi28 and one assault helicopter with 14 infantry. Of course in practice it would have likely been a different ratio.
However the driving force of the program or what there was of one was to try and get civilian sales to pay for military development. This likely lead to the stalled process.

In the original Soviets scheme the Mi8 was next on the list for retirement. Mil and the Soviets had planned a 5 year development for a Tiltrotor to replace the Mi8 between 1986 and 1995.
Of course that was the late 80s and the economics killed that.
Still if we look at other Air assault forces they often have 3 tiers of rotorcraft. An attacker, an Assaulter of 10+ troops and a cargo carrier often of 20+ troops. AH64+UH60+CH47 in example.

The Mi8 and Mi17 are large aircraft with three engines this makes them thirsty and with higher maintenance demand than a twin engine medium. They also have size restrictions that prevent the degree of strategic mobility available to a medium. In example you mentioned a Naval helicopter. Many western medium helicopters the size of the KA60 are navalized allowing use off naval destroyers and frigates without needing to develop a clean sheet aircraft. Kamov said they intended a KA60K for naval operations.
In size Aircraft like the S70 are able to be transported in larger numbers on transport like the C17 and even can be carried in C130. Where Mi8 would have to be partially disassembled for carry in Il72 and AN124 well taking up large volume. Bigger isn’t always better.

As far as i know, all Mi-8/-14/-17/-24 versions, like Feanor already said, have only two engines.

 

[Terran]

Mi-28 partners with Mi-17. That's the logical step.

Again why not just the Mi-8 family? They exist, they do the job.

I went over the downsides of size and weight. The primary user would be VDV/ Airborne. Which means rapid deployment potential into unprepared areas. Shipping a Mi17 requires breaking it down and reassembling it. In Syria Russia had the advantage of having a airbase that was secure and friendly, But as we saw in Ukraine when the VDV tried to take an airbase that was capable of resisting the Russians were unable to establish a line of operations.

I think the main thing is that the military didn't want it. In terms of Russian re-armament in the 2000's and 2010's the Mi-8 family was king for transport, along with small numbers of Mi-26s.

I think the main thing is the Russian military couldn’t afford it. Not so much not wanting it. They could afford Mi8s and Mi17s as those were being bought off an active line of export as well as sustained inventory. KA60 was developmental requiring both a new airframe but also new avionics and particularly new engines.
We saw long delays in new systems or other long vapor projects where they promised development only to repeat the same claims years later with the assurance they mean it this time. New fighters, new bombers, new tanks, new helicopters, new rifles, new IFVs, new ect… ect…

Sorry, 3 engines? I believe they have two.

I was wrong though it’s still larger and heavier with more thirsty engines. The engines on the Mi8 are old and large. The Mi38’s new engines are large and less fuel efficient than those of a smaller aircraft.
Ultimately that’s both the damnation and blessing. Smaller

 

[Feanor]

Russia is reportedly expanding Su-57 production. Despite the war and sanctions the type is definitely still in production and doesn't seem to be going anywhere. If anything with the arrival of F-16s, especially if more modern variants show up, it will be potentially the most valuable combat jet Russia has.

https://topwar.ru/248729-oak-na-knaaz-vveli-v-jekspluataciju-novye-moschnosti-dlja-uvelichenija-vypuska-istrebitelej-su-57.html

Reportedly Russia has completely withdrawn the An-22 from service. It could probably be returned to service if need-be, but their time in the sun is over.

Военный Осведомитель

Сообщают, что в августе в России окончательно прекращена эксплуатация тяжелых транспортных самолетов Ан-22 "Антей". Последнее летавшее воздушное судно этого типа (RF-09309, серийный номер 05-10, постройки 1974 г.) ВКС РФ 16 августа совершило перелет из Мигалово в Екатеринбург, где встанет на...

t.me

Su-57 and Su-35S deliveries continue.

Военный Осведомитель

ОАК передала Минобороны России партию серийных истребителей пятого поколения Су-57. Военный Осведомитель

t.me

Операция Z: Военкоры Русской Весны

‼️ Новая партия Су-57 и Су-35С передана ВКС РФ ▪️ОАК передала ВКС РФ очередную партию новейших истребителей Су-57 и Су-35С. Эти современные боевые машины прошли все этапы заводских испытаний и были проверены в разных рабочих режимах летчиками Министерства обороны РФ. ➖«Переданные в войска...

t.me

Новые партии истребителей Су-57 и Су-35С для ВКС России

ПАО Объединенная авиастроительная корпорация (ОАК, входит в Госкорпорацию Ростех) 12 сентября 2024 года сообщило , что передало ВКС России партию новых самолетов Су-57 и Су-35С. Истребители пятого поколения Су-57 были приняты техническим составом, прошли полный цикл заводских…

bmpd.livejournal.com

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vk.com

The third and fourth batches of Su-34s is delivered this year. These initially less-than-useful jets are now core to Russia's war effort. Batches seem to be 2 jets at a time. And the variant may be either the Su-34NVO or the Su-34M.

ВКС России получили третью в 2024 году партию фронтовых бомбардировщиков Су-34

2 сентября 2024 года ПАО Объединенная авиастроительная корпорация (ПАО ОАК, входит в Госкорпорацию Ростех) сообщило о поставке Министерству обороны России очередной (третьей) в этом году партии фронтовых бомбардировщиков Су-34 в рамках исполнения государственного…

bmpd.livejournal.com

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vk.com

Операция Z: Военкоры Русской Весны

‼️ ВКС России получили новые Су-34 ▪️Объединенная авиастроительная корпорация передала ВКС России новую партию фронтовых бомбардировщиков Су-34. Эти самолеты, оснащенные высокоточными боеприпасами с универсальными модулями планирования и коррекции, сейчас особенно востребованы в зоне СВО, где...

t.me

ВКС России получили четвёртую в 2024 году партию фронтовых бомбардировщиков Су-34

ПАО Объединенная авиастроительная корпорация (ОАК, в составе Госкорпорации Ростех) 9 октября 2024 года сообщила , что передала ВКС России очередную партию новых фронтовых бомбардировщиков Су-34. Самолеты изготовлены Новосибирским авиационным заводом имени В.П. Чкалова (НАЗ) ОАК в…

bmpd.livejournal.com

Reportedly Russia is finishing development on a longer-ranged variant of the UMPK gliding bomb kit.

Colonelcassad

Новые УМПК. Серия испытаний ФАБ-3000М54 с УМПК завершается в ближайшее время и будет поставляться в строевые полки, где их с нетерпением ждёт летный состав бомбардировочной авиации. Важно отметить, что на вооружение также поступили новые УМПК-ПД ("Повышенная Дальность") на ФАБ-500М62...

t.me

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And a longer range variant of the LMUR Kh-39 with a range now over 20 kms.

Военный Осведомитель

ЛМУР научили стрелять гораздо дальше. Развитие авиационных средств поражения для Армейской Авиации продолжается. В работе уже, еще одна модернизация, при которой значения станут такими, что никому в мире и не снилось. На данный момент, новой ракетой отработано на 2Хкм.

t.me

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vk.com

Forpost-RU production continues, and it apparently has been added to carry EW.

Военный Осведомитель

t.me

Meanwhile a Russian Orion-S crashed in Taganrog. Given the location it's likely part of the war effort.

Военный Осведомитель

Момент падения БПЛА «Орион» ВКС России на склад лесоматериалов в Таганроге. Беспилотник буквально въехал на склад. Скорее всего, крушение произошло по технической неисправности. Ранее в данном районе уже неоднократно терпели крушение различные разведывательно-ударные дроны, активно...

t.me

Военный Осведомитель

Кадры с места падения БПЛА в районе Николаевского шоссе в Таганроге. Военный Осведомитель

t.me

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vk.com

An interesting piece on Russian Shahed drone production.

Institute for Science and International Security

isis-online.org

During a recent visit to the plant we got a photo of a Shahed variant with a EO seeker head.

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vk.com

The 20th Be-200 was produced recently. They're being exported in Algeria. Future domestic orders are likely pending the PD-8 engine.

bmpd

Бе-200: построена 20-я амфибия, на очереди – ремоторизация Вчера в Таганроге с участием губернатора Ростовской области Василия Голубева, генерального директора ОАК Юрия Слюсаря и других гостей прошли торжественные мероприятия, посвященные 90-летию ТАНТК им. Г.М. Бериева. Собравшимся был...

t.me

Pantsyr-S deliveries continue. We rarely get information on Russian SAM production with this war, and I'm curious about the variant produced. There's also no word on quantities.

Colonelcassad

В рамках государственного оборонного заказа на 2024 год Министерство обороны Российской Федерации получило новую партию зенитных ракетно-пушечных комплексов «Панцирь-С». Как сообщает корпорация «Ростех», комплекс был модернизирован и теперь способен эффективно противодействовать беспилотным...

t.me

The Mi-34 flies with the new VK-650 engine. Russian engine development is one of the issues with Russian light helos and light planes.

Нифигасебе, прАстите, новый Ми-34 полетел, "но был нюанс"

"Говорят и показывают", что начались летные испытания модернизированного вертолета Ми-34М1 с новым российским турбовальным двигателем ВК-650. Во-первых, похоже это первые летные испытания с этого движка, который очень ждут ряд программ ("Ансат", Ка-226, Як-152, "Байкал" и иже с ними). Во-вторых,…

afirsov.livejournal.com

Первый полёт вертолёта Ми-34М1 с турбовальным двигателем ВК-650

Сообщают, что 15 октября 2024 года на аэродроме АО Национальный центр вертолётостроения имени М. Л. Миля и Н. И. Камова АО Вертолёты России в подмосковном Томилино совершил первый полёт в режиме висения первый опытный образец лёгкого вертолёта Ми-34М1, оснащенного…

bmpd.livejournal.com

Военный Осведомитель

Первый полёт в режиме висения первого опытного образца лёгкого вертолёта Ми-34М1, оснащенного турбовальным двигателем ВК-650В производства АО «ОДК-Климов». Считается, что он составит конкуренцию самому популярному в мире семейству вертолётов АОН фирмы Robinson. Военный Осведомитель

t.me