The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Jaykaro

Member
A strange "surrender" when Russia was offering to return the conquered territories south of the Dnieper]
Russia is an unreliable negotiating partner. First of all, I haven’t seen a map with the territories under the Istanbul agreements — they haven’t shown it. Secondly, reducing the army to 100,000 troops, cutting certain military equipment tenfold, and needing Russia’s permission for military aid in case of another attack? Reliable plan. And as for the territories they would return, even if they kept only Crimea and the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, Russia would recapture everything in the short term due to Ukraine's new military capacity and would have the possibility to take cities they couldn't before, like Kyiv and Odessa. But there would be no Western support anymore.

Such agreements provide absolutely nothing except a short-term truce
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Negotiations under duress are rarely considered valid by the future inheritors.
All negotiations to end wars tend to be under some sort of duress, namely the continuation of hostilities. This argument makes agreement to end hostilities essentially impossible since neither side would be bound by them.

Negotiations involve two sides. So far, we’ve only seen the Istanbul agreements — a circus and, essentially, a surrender. At this point, there’s no real reason for Ukraine to agree to such terms. I don’t know, of course, what aid will be provided for 2025-26, but reducing the army according to those requirements without security guarantees is pointless. Ofc Ukraine loses territory, yet Russia keeps losing equipment in quantities that took decades to build.
I don't think they were any real surrender. They did create a weak Ukraine but also returned most occupied territory to Ukraine in exchange for recognizing the independence of two relatively small breakaway territories, and of course Crimea. It's almost certain that any future negotiations will involve accepting greater territorial losses.

On a side note Russia's current vehicle inventories didn't take Russia decades to build because Russia didn't build them. At all. They were built by the Soviet Union who could produce enough vehicles to maintain current attrition rates quite well. How long it would take Russia to produce this massive pile of armaments under peacetime conditions is an open question, but certainly it's a problem. I think that if the war ends and we return to peacetime economics with some increased spending, then Russia will never again have such a pile.

According to OSINT data, over the past two weeks, I read that Russian forces have decommissioned nearly 90% of their T-80 tanks since the start of the war and have lost about 1,000 of them. The situation with the T-90 is even worse, though there are still enough T-72s.
You mean re-commissioned?

The same goes for IFVs. Most of Russia's recent IFV losses are older BMD-2 models brought back from storage. BMD-4 losses have been relatively steady, as they’re produced in very limited numbers (and are the only IFVs still in production). I’ve read from multiple sources that, judging by satellite images, at this rate, IFVs could run out by spring 2025. This means that without external support, Russia’s offensive capability won’t be sustainable, and the only option for assistance is from China.
I don't have a good way to track Russian vehicle losses but if there has been a spike in BMD-2 losses, it's because of VDV units riding them being heavily engaged in Kursk region. The BMD-4 isn't in production at all, and BMD-4M losses are small because it's a relatively uncommon vehicle. Iirc only ~300 were produced pre-war. Awkwardly enough the BMD-4 and 4M are actually different vehicles. The BMD-4 is a BMD-3 with a new turret. The BMD-4M is a new chassis, engine, etc. with the turret retained... However the BMD-4M is certainly not the only IFV in production and this is a very silly claim. BMD-4Ms are a niche air-droppable IFV whose production ceased at some point in I think late '22, and wasn't resumed until '24 in some quantity. I have a suspicion that current production is only clearing a backlog of partially built vehicles and components, and once those are used up it will cease again. It doesn't make sense to produce the vehicle for this war unless it can be done with literally no impact to BMP-3M production. Which is the actual IFV in production, not sure how you missed it. On a side note Russia uses MT-LBs, BMPs, BMDs, and BTRs almost interchangeably. So if you really want to talk about production you really can't ignore the BTR-82As being churned out by AMZ. My best estimate is that a combination of AMZs BTRs and Kurganmash BMP/BMD production equates to ~1000 light amored vehicles per year. This is before we get to the Z-STS, Kamaz Typhoon, etc. So even with exhausted storage piles this still provides a considerable volume. Russia would have to slow down if this is all they got but not stop entirely.

However, and this is the real question, what will Russia do once stored vehicles run out? There are options, and I'm curious to see which ones Russia takes. For example one logical option might be restarting BMP-1 production (in the AM variant with the extra armor) at the Rubtsov Machinebuilding Plant. Another logical option might be to re-tool the plant to produce more BMP-3Ms, or even the Manul variant.

Things are better at the storage bases for MLRS. Currently, only 16% of the 'Grad' systems remain there (166 out of 1,025 before the full-scale war), 43% of the 'Uragan' systems (171 out of 394), and 12% of the 'Smerch' systems (2 out of 17). According to Oryx data, Russian MLRS losses of all types amount to at least 426 units.
I think this is a weak spot in Russian armaments, the plant that produced Tornado-S and G vehicles is in poor shape and went through iirc a bankrupcy. I suspect it will be rescued in some way but Russia will definitely have issues there.

In towed artillery, things are also far from smooth. Out of 14,486 towed artillery units (including mortars, or 11,876 units if excluding them), the current number of operational units is only 6,134 (all mortars have been reactivated). Many of the remaining units are very old, some even dating back to WW II, and many others are likely in quite poor technical condition. But I’m still waiting, as a detailed new review of the stockpiles should be released soon.
It's an interesting question as to why Russia hasn't attempted to boot up Msta-B production again. It's not a complex howitzer, and Russian produces the Msta-SM and Mal'va, both essentially the Msta-B cannon in different variants. Towed guns are some of the relatively easier things to produce compared to some other things that Russia does pump out in volume.

Therefore, I think they will not consider negotiations without any critical situations, such as a halt in aid to Ukraine. Russia may turn a couple more cities like Bakhmut into ruins, mb taking Pokrovsk and reaching somewhere like Sloviansk would be the limit for next year, imho.
An optimistic limit in general too. Russian forces taking Pokrovsk and pushing all the way through Toretsk, Chasov Yar, Krasniy Liman, and Seversk, to reach the outskirts of the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk area would be a good year for Russia. This is of course assuming Ukraine can maintain at least the current level of resistance, which is an open question. With deteriorating Ukrainian performance we could see Russian gains accelerate next year in the same proportions they did this year, by a factor of ~5 in monthly sq kms captured, next year could get really nasty. We have an equation with at least two variables, Russia holding up and Ukraine holding up.

Russia is an unreliable negotiating partner. First of all, I haven’t seen a map with the territories under the Istanbul agreements — they haven’t shown it. Secondly, reducing the army to 100,000 troops, cutting certain military equipment tenfold, and needing Russia’s permission for military aid in case of another attack? Reliable plan. And as for the territories they would return, even if they kept only Crimea and the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, Russia would recapture everything in the short term due to Ukraine's new military capacity and would have the possibility to take cities they couldn't before, like Kyiv and Odessa. But there would be no Western support anymore.

Such agreements provide absolutely nothing except a short-term truce
I think that if the west is serious about protecting Ukraine then bilateral security agreements could do it without NATO membership. The real question is, how serious is the west if an easy out exists?
 

rsemmes

Member
Kalibrated (usually optimistic) is giving all Selidove as lost and there is another corridor (finger) towards Shajtarske; NNE from Vugledar. Ukraine seems unable or unwilling to counter attack them.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
Ukraine is a European country, and Zelensky is a European politician. Belarus is a European country. Georgia is a European country, and yes even Russia is a European country making Putin a European politician.
Putin became an Asian politician. :)

But in one sens, you are right. People chose to become European or not. And support a leader who will move them closer to or further away from Europe.

Feanor said:
The logical step is for Russia to do the exact opposite. Pummel Ukraine as hard as possible. Ukraine's willingness to negotiate instead of counting on military expelling Russia comes entirely from battlefield failures and damage from Russian strikes.
Willingness to surrender would be more exact.
What you describe is forcing Ukraine to capitulate. Not to open negotiations.

Feanor said:
what prevents Ukraine from dragging out the negotiations in bad faith as a breathing pause while really preparing to continue the fight?
The fact that Putin will do exactly the same.

Feanor said:
Russia claimed they had extended an offer to stop attacks on energy infrastructure mutually before Ukraine went into Kursk.
Yeah, we have seen how Putin proposes to talk. In good faith, as a gesture of good will, Ukrainians went to Kursk to meet him for talking too. LOL.

Feanor said:
. I think the general consensus is that Ukraine can join eventually. But we may yet get to see how this plays out in reality.
Yes, The consensus is that it won't happen before at least 5 years, and perhaps 5 years after the end of the war. So maybe ten years from now.
The question is to make a formal invitation now or to leave the question open.

Feanor said:
I think this is spot on. I think there absolutely is a proxy war, and the west does want to use this to bleed Russia, weaken if possible.
Yes. The weaker Russia is, militarily, the safer we are.

rsemmes said:
A strange "surrender" when Russia was offering to return the conquered territories south of the Dnieper.
Russia/Putin has never offered that. Or I missed an episode.

Feanor said:
I think that if the west is serious about protecting Ukraine then bilateral security agreements could do it without NATO membership.
Of course. But being in NATO is more efficient.
_________________

Correction:
"Buryat" not "Yakut". DPRK soldiers will be integrated into the Buryat battalion.

By the way, the DPRK foreign ministry have issued a very strange press release (they have internet!):

Kim Jong Gyu said:
I heeded the rumor of the dispatch of KPA troops to Russia, which the world media is building up public opinion.

The DPRK Foreign Ministry does not directly engage in the things of the Ministry of National Defence, and does not feel the need to confirm it separately.

If there is such a thing that the world media is talking about, I think it will be an act conforming with the regulations of international law.

There will evidently exist forces which want to describe it as illegal one, I think.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Kalibrated (usually optimistic) is giving all Selidove as lost and there is another corridor (finger) towards Shajtarske; NNE from Vugledar. Ukraine seems unable or unwilling to counter attack them.
Selidovo and Gornyak are done. Ukrainian forces are pulling out and now only hold small areas. Russian forces are also pushing south-west out of Tsukurino and Selidovo. The directionality is towards the western side of the Kurakhovo reservoir though there is some distance to go. The situation south of Kurakhovo is also rapidly worsening for Ukraine. Russian forces have both reached Bogoyavlenka, and unexpectdly are just Shahterskoe.

Putin became an Asian politician. :)

But in one sens, you are right. People chose to become European or not. And support a leader who will move them closer to or further away from Europe.
Are you suggesting it is somehow better to be a European politician than an Asian one?

Willingness to surrender would be more exact.
What you describe is forcing Ukraine to capitulate. Not to open negotiations.
We've been over this repeatedly. For the last time; negotiations are about give and take. What you want to get and what you're willing to give. Ukraine has to decide what they're willing to give. Until then no negotiations are possible. It is not capitulation unless Ukraine were to simply surrender to all Russian demands. It is not negotiations if Ukraine wants everything and is willing to give next to nothing in return because of some claim of right.

The fact that Putin will do exactly the same.
Both sides will do the same but the side that's worse off pre-negotiations is the side that benefits more.

Russia/Putin has never offered that. Or I missed an episode.
Iirc the Istanbul deal involved recognizing the loss of the LDNR and Crimea, but a return of all other territories which at that point still included Kherson city.

EDIT: It appears Ukrainian lines past Ugledar have collapsed. We're looking at advances on par or faster in terms of ground covered to what we had after the fall of Progres. Possibly faster due to the lack of villages in the area, there aren't nearly as many. Fighting has begun for Shahtersk, Novoukrainka, and Bogoyavlenka. Ukraine could still stop this if they can slow down Russia at these villages, or at the high ground past the next line of villages, but it begs the question, why didn't they stop them at the river. I suspect the culprit is a lack of troops combined with a lack of prepared positions.

 
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Fredled

Active Member
Yes, Selydove has practically fallen. Further south, Izmaielka has fallen and Russian are closing the cauldron around Kurakhivka. It's a matter of days intil Ukrainians evacuate this area.
North west of Vuhledar, Russians have reached Bogoyavlenka and progressed a little bit in the south west. An aerial look at the open fields around Vuhledar explain why it was easy for them to move forward. If Ukrainians don;t have sufficient artillery, they can't stop them.

About the Oksil river in the north, yes, the Ukrainians are at risk of losing all the territories east of it, as shown on this map. It's not done yet. But they will have to counter attack if they don't want it to happen. it looks like the Ukrainian command is not in a hurry to stop Russians at all costs there.
Map taken from Heinrich Torsten's video.

temp_defence forum.txt.jpg
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Realistically Ukraine can't win this war. Russia on the otherhand is probably unwilling to pay the price it would need to gain total victory. Ukraine has demonstrated that it has the ability to strike targets deep in Russian territory further complicating the situation. If Ukraine starts knocking out Russian infrastructure Putin will have to deal with a discontented populous that are probably already pretty weary of this war.

Really the question is which side has most to gain from peace talks. From the outside it really looks like both sides should be willing to make concessions to end this. Russia could concede some of its captured territory, Ukraine could get the green light to eventually join NATO and hopefully that part of Europe can get back to some normality.

I think another valid question is just how committed is the rest of the world to ending this conflict?

Really some nations are probably happy to see Russia burn through their military resources. Certainly the Military Industrial Complex is benefiting in a big way. If the US, China, Europe and a few more major players decided this war needed to end they could probably do it fairly quickly.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I could not blame many of the N.A.T.O members being happy to see Russia burning off its war stocks and ammunitions its easy to believe they were asleep to this war happening and were not prepared for this in their own defence and now find Russia who they felt comfortable with behaving in a similar way to Hitler
 

Redshift

Active Member
All negotiations to end wars tend to be under some sort of duress, namely the continuation of hostilities. This argument makes agreement to end hostilities essentially impossible since neither side would be bound by them.
I didn't propose it as an argument, more of an observed fact, how many people who have lost territory to a neighbour through force of arms in an aggressive invasion consider this to be a valid exchange forever before resistance/nationalist/popularist governments in the future make claims to take the territory back? As an example I propose Crimes which was ceded to Ukraine .....

Will Argentina ever give up it's claim to the Falklands for instance? There are many other territorial disputes, many of which stem from lost territory due to armed aggression.

If you were held at knifepoint and handed your wallet over , then the "new owner" of your wallet promised to put his knife away and let you keep the rest of your possessions so long as you recognised his ownership of the wallet would you or your descendants feel obliged to honour that negotiation?
 

Capt. Ironpants

Active Member
I didn't propose it as an argument, more of an observed fact, how many people who have lost territory to a neighbour through force of arms in an aggressive invasion consider this to be a valid exchange forever before resistance/nationalist/popularist governments in the future make claims to take the territory back? As an example I propose Crimes which was ceded to Ukraine .....
I don't think Crimea is a very good example, as it was not a case of "lost territory to a neighbour through force of arms in an aggressive invasion". Crimea was transferred from the RSFR to the UkrSFR in 1954 under Kruschev. At the time, both were constituent republics of the USSR of course. When the transfer took place, the population of Crimea was about 75% ethnic Russian and 25% ethnic Ukrainian, the Tatars having been shipped off to Siberia by Stalin, so it had nothing to do with the ethnic population, but much to do with internal power struggles and Kruschev consolidating his hold on power.

Crimea was annexed by the Russian Empire under Catherine the Great in 1783 after the Russians defeated the Ottomans in the Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774 -- so if anyone could claim it was taken "through force of arms" it would be the Turks, as Crimea had been a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire (and thriving slave trade hub). I doubt the Turks are interested in getting the slave thing going again, they're not exactly big wine drinkers, and they already control the Bosphorus anyway, so they likely aren't keen to reclaim it.

Ukraine was never its very own country before 1991, and its very name means "borderlands" or "frontier". Sadly for the peoples who live there, it lies astride an age-old cultural fault line between East and West, Orthodox and Catholic. The borders of the empires ruling over its various parts have continually shifted over the centuries. And here we go again.

[Edited to correct small typo -- typed a 9 instead of 8.)
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
I didn't propose it as an argument, more of an observed fact, how many people who have lost territory to a neighbour through force of arms in an aggressive invasion consider this to be a valid exchange forever before resistance/nationalist/popularist governments in the future make claims to take the territory back? As an example I propose Crimes which was ceded to Ukraine .....
To be pedantic, your original statement is about negotiations under duress. The decision on issues such as borders and terrorities is an outcome of the negotiations and it can go either way. A better example could be the Treaty of Versailles.

Will Argentina ever give up it's claim to the Falklands for instance? There are many other territorial disputes, many of which stem from lost territory due to armed aggression.
A poor example, as Argentinian claims to the Falklands preceeded the 1982 invasion and the said islands wasn't exactly lost to an armed invasion; the Falklands were settled well before the state of Argentina existed.
 

PachkaSigaret

New Member
I didn't propose it as an argument, more of an observed fact, how many people who have lost territory to a neighbour through force of arms in an aggressive invasion consider this to be a valid exchange forever before resistance/nationalist/popularist governments in the future make claims to take the territory back? As an example I propose Crimes which was ceded to Ukraine .....

Will Argentina ever give up it's claim to the Falklands for instance? There are many other territorial disputes, many of which stem from lost territory due to armed aggression.

If you were held at knifepoint and handed your wallet over , then the "new owner" of your wallet promised to put his knife away and let you keep the rest of your possessions so long as you recognised his ownership of the wallet would you or your descendants feel obliged to honour that negotiation?
I do understand your point. There are a lot of different factors for each particular instance of conflict resolution around the globe. Like with Argentina, for instance. Peace has lasted a long time. I don't see them wanting to attempt another escapade anytime soon. Not all cessations of hostilities have to re-ignite, even if tensions remain. And even if they do, it's best to find a resolution as soon as possible. Aliyev and Pashinyan for instance talk. Despite how uncomfortable, they were just recently seated together again at the BRICS summit. Ukraine needs to talk. The realities on the ground are becoming worse by the day. The extent of the demographic crisis could be worse than we can fathom. A long, protracted war is good for no one, especially Ukraine. "There never has been a good war or a bad peace." - Benjamin Franklin
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I don't think Crimea is a very good example, as it was not a case of "lost territory to a neighbour through force of arms in an aggressive invasion". Crimea was transferred from the RSFR to the UkrSFR in 1954 under Kruschev. At the time, both were constituent republics of the USSR of course. When the transfer took place, the population of Crimea was about 75% ethnic Russian and 25% ethnic Ukrainian, the Tatars having been shipped off to Siberia by Stalin, so it had nothing to do with the ethnic population, but much to do with internal power struggles and Kruschev consolidating his hold on power.

Crimea was annexed by the Russian Empire under Catherine the Great in 1783 after the Russians defeated the Ottomans in the Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774 -- so if anyone could claim it was taken "through force of arms" it would be the Turks, as Crimea had been a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire (and thriving slave trade hub). I doubt the Turks are interested in getting the slave thing going again, they're not exactly big wine drinkers, and they already control the Bosphorus anyway, so they likely aren't keen to reclaim it.

Ukraine was never its very own country before 1991, and its very name means "borderlands" or "frontier". Sadly for the peoples who live there, it lies astride an age-old cultural fault line between East and West, Orthodox and Catholic. The borders of the empires ruling over its various parts have continually shifted over the centuries. And here we go again.

[Edited to correct small typo -- typed a 9 instead of 8.)
Yes borders have history.
The demographics within the active areas of conflict have fluctuated over the decades and century's.
This will certainly be a region with a problematic future when peace finally arrives.
Grieving family's have long memories.

Sadly S
 

rsemmes

Member
It is always useful to go back to what was already said, like what the former commander of the UK's Joint Forces Command said in April.

General Sir Richard Barrons has told the BBC there is "a serious risk" of Ukraine losing the war this year. The reason, he says, is "because Ukraine may come to feel it can't win". "And when it gets to that point, why will people want to fight and die any longer, just to defend the indefensible?"
 

rsemmes

Member
But in one sens, you are right. People chose to become European or not. And support a leader who will move them closer to or further away from Europe.

Russia/Putin has never offered that. Or I missed an episode.
So, in what sense he is not right. Can a British politician declare himself an "African politician"? That is not optimism, it's fantasy.

You missed more than "one episode", maybe all those not on your side of optimism?

"Russia was ready to end the war and withdraw its troops in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality just a few months after the invasion began..."
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes, Selydove has practically fallen. Further south, Izmaielka has fallen and Russian are closing the cauldron around Kurakhivka. It's a matter of days intil Ukrainians evacuate this area.
North west of Vuhledar, Russians have reached Bogoyavlenka and progressed a little bit in the south west. An aerial look at the open fields around Vuhledar explain why it was easy for them to move forward. If Ukrainians don;t have sufficient artillery, they can't stop them.

About the Oksil river in the north, yes, the Ukrainians are at risk of losing all the territories east of it, as shown on this map. It's not done yet. But they will have to counter attack if they don't want it to happen. it looks like the Ukrainian command is not in a hurry to stop Russians at all costs there.
Map taken from Heinrich Torsten's video.

View attachment 51955
Russia's offensive on the Donetsk axis is bearing fruit. Remember when Ukrainian leadership proudly declared that Russian advances on Pokrovsk had been halted? And remember what I said about the southward direction? Well here we are. Selidovo and Gornyak have fallen completely. Russian forces are pushing south-west out of the Tsukurino area, are pushing westward on Kurakhovo gaining ground there and are now collapsing what has become a bulge from the southern side with Russian forces now inside Novoukrainka, Shahterskoe, Yelizavetovka, and Bogoyavlenka. The north-south directionality suggests Russian offensive thrusts meet somewhere between Starie Terny and Andreevka, west of Kurakhovo. And still no movement on Pokrovsk. Of cousre due to Ukrainian defense there, no doubt. Nothing to do with the intent of the offensive.
 

Fredled

Active Member
No matter how Crimea ended up belonging to Ukraine or how young Ukraine is, or how many percent of the population of the Donbas is so called ethnic Russian, we are living in the framework of the United Nations.
The UN established the borders of all the countries in the world and all the countries of the world agree about the border map established by the UN.
These borders, recognized by the UN, are the basis of the sovereignty of every country. Crossing these borders or annexing territories beyond your own border is an act of war and is illegal.

Until 2014, the only country outside the framework of the UN was Palestine. And it has been continuously at war since.
Cyprus and Taiwan are another two examples of countries not clearly defined by the UN, and of course the two Koreas, but administrative delimitations exist and are respected nonetheless.
It's remarkable that absolutely every country in the wrorld, with the notable exception of Palestine, are part of this system and accept it voluntarily.

By annexing Crimea, Rusia became the first country ever to de facto withdraw from the UN Convention. This is extremely dangerous because Russia is an important developed country, and is a permanent member of the UNSC, which members are sort of, the Gardians of the Temple.
And this could mean that the entire organisation and the universal recognitions of the borders of all the countries on the planet could crumble. And if sovereign borders are not regarded as sacred any more, it will be the return of chaos.

The mention of the Falkland is interesting. The Falklands belonged to the UK but it has never been recognized as UK territory by Argentina. Like the Kurille Islands, they were small enough so the it could be ignored by the UN, in the sens that these small pieces of islands were left undefined. So Argentina invading the Flaklands or Russia the Kurilles were not really breaches of the UN Convention as this convention didn't defined clearly whose these Islands belonged to.

Crimea and more so, the Donbas, are very different because they were clearly within Ukrainian territories as recognized by the UN, and further confirmed by the Budapest Memorandum. Therefore, if we want the UN Convention to exist, every one have to recognise the Ukrainian borders as of 1991 (or 1954), no matter how disconnected from reality it is. Legally Crimea and Donbas are still and always be Ukrainian.

IMO, one solution for a peace compromise with Russia could be a form of long term lease of these territories to Russia. Like a 100 years lease as it was done between the Chinese and British Empires for Hong Kong. (And everything went fine). It doesn't have to be forcibly 100 years, but at least several decades. The lease of the port of Sevastopol was already a sort of similar agreement between Ukraine and Russia which could have lasted forever.

This solution would make a secession of territories to Russia constitutional as per Ukrainian constitution which forbid to give away sovereign territory.
It would give victory for both sides as Ukraine didn't lose any territory formally (territories can be returned back to Ukraine at any time, after a change of regime in Russia or at the end of the lease contract) and Putin can claim that it returned these territories to the Russian People.
 

Fredled

Active Member
So, in what sense he is not right. Can a British politician declare himself an "African politician"? That is not optimism, it's fantasy.

You missed more than "one episode", maybe all those not on your side of optimism?

"Russia was ready to end the war and withdraw its troops in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality just a few months after the invasion began..."
That was April 2022 when Putin thought Ukraine would kindly come back to Russia's orbit. So, yes, what's the point of invading if the country gives itself up?
The condition was not only that Ukraine abandon NATO membership. Yes, that point was essential to Putin, but not the only one. The other condition was "denazification" of the Ukrainian government. Which means in Putin's language, the replacement of anti-Russian politicians by pro-Russian ones. Making him de facto in control of Ukraine, therefore eliminating the need to occupy the country militarily and allowing the possibility ot withdraw troops.

The unannounced arrival of Boris Johnson and promises of military aid was not the only reason why Ukrainian rejected the peace proposal. One of the main reason is that they didn't trust Putin. And they didn't trust him because as the so called talks were going on, Putin kept bombing Ukrainian cities and attacking on all flanks.
 

rsemmes

Member
Legally Crimea and Donbas are still and always be Ukrainian.
You mean until a peace agreement says otherwise. Yes, Panama "went fine" too.

"Crossing these borders or annexing territories beyond your own border is an act of war and is illegal. "
Yes, and? If you want to go back in History you have to select each case and draw conclusions from all of them. 'Somewhere Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe’s problems are the world’s problems but the world’s problems are not Europe’s problems.' India’s external affairs minister S. Jaishankar, India Foreign Affairs Minister.
 

rsemmes

Member
That was April 2022 when Putin thought Ukraine would kindly come back to Russia's orbit. So, yes, what's the point of invading if the country gives itself up?
Oh! You only miss the episodes you don't like, that's convenient.

The offer to return territories, that you never saw, was two months after "invading the country".
 
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