Taiwan Navy News and Developments

[Ananda]

Taiwan reveals first domestically made submarine in defence milestone

Taiwan unveiled its first domestically developed submarine on Thursday, a major step in a project aimed at strengthening the island's defence and deterrence against the Chinese navy.

www.reuters.com

indigenous submarine programme has drawn on expertise and technology from several countries - a breakthrough for diplomatically isolated Taiwan.

first submarine, with a price tag of T$49.36 billion ($1.53 billion), will use a combat system by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and carry U.S.-made Mark 48 heavyweight torpedoes. It will enter sea trials next month before delivery to the navy by the end of 2024

Taiwan really doing the hard way, with consultants from several sources. However this also means the RnD results is own by them. Thus USD 1.5bio for building this first submarine actually reasonable enough.

It is definitely more expensive then building on license from someone else design. Still I do suspect they already put the design bit by bit throughout perhaps a decade more. Refine the design and prepared their yard to work on implementing the design. This is perhaps seems fast if we see the timeline between now and public announcement of the program. However before that I do suspect Taiwanese already done the hard work on refining what they can gather from collections of 'consultants'.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

However this also means the RnD results is own by them. Thus USD 1.5bio for building this first submarine actually reasonable enough.

That's a fair point. It's worth remembering that this is the cost of not just manufacturing but also R&D. The following boats would have lower unit costs, not least because issues that arise during construction of lead of class usually generate lessons learnt.

However before that I do suspect Taiwanese already done the hard work on refining what they can gather from collections of 'consultants'.

I forget where I read it, but I saw a quote from someone suggesting that President Tsai was a big part in making the IDS project a reality. Before 2016 I think there was a lot of reluctance to go ahead with it, worrying that a failure would destroy political careers, damage Taiwan's reputation, etc. Some work was done but there seemed to be a belief that it was too big for Taiwan to do. And maybe to be fair, before 2016 it's not clear there was enough international support to make it a success. But either way she gave the necessary political backing to get it off the drawing board.

 

[swerve]

That's a fair point. It's worth remembering that this is the cost of not just manufacturing but also R&D. The following boats would have lower unit costs, not least because issues that arise during construction of lead of class usually generate lessons learnt.

And Taiwan has a pretty efficient civilian shipbuilding industry, I think.

 

[koxinga]

I forget where I read it, but I saw a quote from someone suggesting that President Tsai was a big part in making the IDS project a reality. Before 2016 I think there was a lot of reluctance to go ahead with it, worrying that a failure would destroy political careers, damage Taiwan's reputation, etc. Some work was done but there seemed to be a belief that it was too big for Taiwan to do. Any maybe to be fair, before 2016 it's not clear there was enough international support to make it a success. But either way she gave the necessary political backing to get it off the drawing board.

There were certain legislators from KMT that were deadset against the program, if I am not mistaken. It is mostly internal politicking, with DPP being supportive of it, and KMT making this a red herring. With the failure of the American promise of diesel submarines, it should have been a no-brainer much earlier.

 

[koxinga]

Sometimes, their worst enemies have always come from within.

Taiwan investigating accusation submarine program details leaked

Taiwan prosecutors said on Monday they are investigating accusations that people tried to interfere in the island's submarine program and that details about it were leaked, in what would be a serious breach of security.

www.reuters.com

 

[76mmGuns]

Sometimes, their worst enemies have always come from within.

Taiwan investigating accusation submarine program details leaked

Taiwan prosecutors said on Monday they are investigating accusations that people tried to interfere in the island's submarine program and that details about it were leaked, in what would be a serious breach of security.

www.reuters.com

Sometimes, their worst enemies have always come from within.

It's said one reason the US doesn't offer them the F-35 is because of such matters. Their armoured infantry vehicle had the same issues. In fact some components were even made in China, apparantly.

 

[OPSSG]

Still I do suspect they already put the design bit by bit throughout perhaps a decade more. Refine the design and prepared their yard to work on implementing the design. This is perhaps seems fast if we see the timeline between now and public announcement of the program. However before that I do suspect Taiwanese already done the hard work on refining what they can gather from collections of 'consultants'.

1. Taiwan’s spies & emissaries have been interested in submarine design & technology for at least the last 25 years but the level of progress is not known.

2. Building the first submarine is a first step. But thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class is as important. As Australia has demonstrated, building the Collins class is easier that building its successor.

3. As Collin Koh wrote:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1709333109223887142

“Taiwan’s Hai Kun submarine does not represent a panacea to an increasingly precarious security situation amid a growing mainland Chinese military threat. Yet it is absolutely essential for deterrence and for it to deal at least a bloody nose to Beijing if push comes to shove.​

If submarines are to remain a credible tool of deterrence, Taiwan defence planners would already have to start thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class.​

This is a colossal enterprise requiring considerable political and fiscal commitments. Faltering in either, or both, to sustain Taiwan’s submarine programme will constitute a classic case of fail to plan, plan to fail.”​

​

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1708423210667008193

4. @CovertShores has suggested that Taiwan’s Hai Kun is a refinement of the Dutch Zwaardvis class with an ‘x’ rudder, & having American C2 systems & weapons.

 

[Ananda]

CovertShores has suggested that Taiwan’s Hai Kun is a refinement of the Dutch Zwaardvis class with an ‘x’ rudder, & having American C2 systems & weapons.

Yes, my self as amateur also see on comparing the model in 2020 and now after we got picture of Hai Kun. If we see Hai Lung tower, fin positioning and the curve and shape, have shown similarities. Logical thinking from Taiwanese team to base their own design from their previous Sub.

But thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class is as important.

Hopefully the Political competition not discouraged that move. Indonesia by 1990's already work out design with the German using aspects from 209 and 205 for next indigenous sub (as Indonesia also in place to acquire 5 205 ex German Navy). However changing political fortune affect that plan. Submarine is always consider big investment, but also strategic ones. For that politics usually can affluence decisions on next gen development.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

But thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class is as important. As Australia has demonstrated, building the Collins class is easier that building its successor.

You make a good point that these new boats have to be seen as the start, not the end, of Taiwan's indigenous submarines. In particular Taiwan will need to find a way to retain skills after the class is complete. Perhaps a successor class built over a longer period.

 

[Ananda]

Sutton video on his assessment for Taiwan Hai Kun, and why he's quite sure it is base on their Hai Lung/Zwaardfis class. He is also believe elements of Dutch Walrus class also influences. He also make comparisons between Hai Kun and PLAN Type 39B which is still base SSK for PLAN.

In a way it is another assessment that shown Taiwan goes with logical steps on developing their Submarine tech base on what they already known and operate. So logical step by step, as eventough they work with overseas private contractors, they have limitations on direct tech transfer from existing players. Thus they work on the design they're already familiar with.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Taiwan Launches Its First Indigenous Submarine - Naval News

Taiwan's first Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS), Hai Kun (SS-711) , was launched today at the CSBC shipyard in Kaohsiung.

www.navalnews.com

Hai Kun has been launched and will start harbour trials, ahead of sea trials planned for later this year. It looks like delivery to the Taiwanese Navy will be in 2025.

Hopefully the successful development of Hai Kun will lead to a budget for successor boats to be approved promptly.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The design of the new indigenous submarine class is based on the Zwaardvisklasse and the weapon, combat and digital sonar systems are provided by US suppliers Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, but still its unclear from where the Taiwanese get their expertise/ToT to build new submarines from.

Anyway, its time for Taiwan to get modern submarines, the Dutch-made Hai-Lung class is more than 25 years old, and the two american boats are primitive old trash from the Second World War. So the Taiwanese can not wait any longer.

Taiwan Starts Construction of New IDS Submarine for ROC Navy - Naval News

Taiwan' shipbuilder China Shipbuilding Corporation (CSBC) started construction today on a prototype submarine known as the Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS). The move aims at renewing the submarine forces of the Republic of China (ROC) Navy while developing a domestic capability to produce...

www.navalnews.com

Less than 4 years after the construction of the first indigenous Taiwanese submarine started, the boat is to start sea trails. That's quite impressive.

Taiwan's New Submarine Ready for Sea Trials Following Delayed Optronic Mast Delivery - Naval News

Following the delayed delivery of its optronic masts, Taiwan's new submarine Hai Kun (SS-711) is now all set to begin sea trials...

www.navalnews.com

 

[John Fedup]

Less than 4 years after the construction of the first indigenous Taiwanese submarine started, the boat is to start sea trails. That's quite impressive.

Taiwan's New Submarine Ready for Sea Trials Following Delayed Optronic Mast Delivery - Naval News

Following the delayed delivery of its optronic masts, Taiwan's new submarine Hai Kun (SS-711) is now all set to begin sea trials...

www.navalnews.com

Absolutely!!!

 

[Ananda]

x.com

x.com

Sutton X shown photo originate from Taiwan Magazine source. The red circle is the hull dinars and yellow one is the torpedo counter measure. Interesting that this time around Sutton still has to explain why this Submarine is base on previous Dutch design Submarine in Taiwan Fleet (Hai Kun) and not Japanese design. Seems for some people that Japanese design thing stubbornly stick with them, no matter what.

 

[76mmGuns]

Good timing with the subs, since Trump said he won't come to Taiwan's aid

 

[swerve]

Interesting that this time around Sutton still has to explain why this Submarine is base on previous Dutch design Submarine in Taiwan Fleet (Hai Kun) and not Japanese design. Seems for some people that Japanese design thing stubbornly stick with them, no matter what.

It's logical to base it on their current subs, which are modified Zwaardvis class. The ROCN knows them intimately, & AFAIK the basic design is good. It'd be hard to get the same access to Japanese submarines or their designs. So, build a modernised Hai Lung, with all new systems . . .

 

[Salinger]

Cho Jung-tai approves 7 new submarines plan 284 billion Taiwan dollars in 14 years

卓榮泰核定7艘新式潛艦計畫 14年投入2840億 | 政治 | 中央社 CNA

各界關注潛艦計畫期程，行政院今天表示，行政院長卓榮泰已核定潛艦計畫，計畫期程自民國114年至127年，預算約新台幣2840億元，籌建新式潛艦量產艦共7艘。

www.cna.com.tw

The Executive Yuan said today that the President of the Executive Yuan, Mr Zhuo Rongtai, has approved the submarine project, which will last from 2025 to 2038 years, with an estimated budget of about NT$284 billion, and will prepare for the construction of a total of seven new submarine production ships.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Cho Jung-tai approves 7 new submarines plan 284 billion Taiwan dollars in 14 years

卓榮泰核定7艘新式潛艦計畫 14年投入2840億 | 政治 | 中央社 CNA

各界關注潛艦計畫期程，行政院今天表示，行政院長卓榮泰已核定潛艦計畫，計畫期程自民國114年至127年，預算約新台幣2840億元，籌建新式潛艦量產艦共7艘。

www.cna.com.tw

The Executive Yuan said today that the President of the Executive Yuan, Mr Zhuo Rongtai, has approved the submarine project, which will last from 2025 to 2038 years, with an estimated budget of about NT$284 billion, and will prepare for the construction of a total of seven new submarine production ships.

It will be interesting to see what excuses the Taiwanese Opposition give for reducing or cutting the budget for the submarines entirely.

"They're a waste of money, the funds should be spent on [other thing we won't redirect the money to]".
"There isn't enough transparency, we won't approve funds until we know all the details that will conveniently be leaked to China so they can put pressure on international suppliers."
"They're too expensive, the government should renegotiate the contract."
"They're too expensive, we should just approve one or two extra boats now and see what happens."
"It's an unproven design, nothing should be spent until the prototype is in service and has no problems at all."
"The arms buildup is a provocation to China, the government should spend its time negotiating peace."

Legislative Yuan Bingo, 2024 edition.

 

[swerve]

People who hope to be executing orders from Beijing one day, & locking up their rivals.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Domestic sub has completed majority of tests, navy says - Taipei Times

Bringing Taiwan to the World and the World to Taiwan

www.taipeitimes.com

The Navy has rejected claims in domestic media that up to 70 technical requirements were failed in recent testing. Rather, there were only about a dozen "shortcomings" and that to date 50-60% of harbour acceptance test requirements have been met.

They believe sea acceptance tests will be completed in December, with delivery in November 2025.